With Ranieri's current struggles i thought now would be the best time to bring the question out.
As a Chelsea fan we have had 3 similar dilemmas this decade alone, Carlo after the double, Robbie after the CL and Jose after the 2015 title. All three produced a fantastic triumph for the club but all three fecked up the next season. Jose is the prominent example, last season was well documented. We were in a major crisis and going south fast. While some Chelsea fans felt Jose should be sacked, others and almost every pundit in the country felt we had a duty to stick by him because of what he has done for the club, and while he probably (no definitely) got more time because of that eventually sacking him for Conte has proven to be a masterstroke, and probably the best decision any club in England have made regarding a manager since we appointed him the first time.
There's other example's as well, Adkins got Saints promoted twice but struggled in the PL. He was sacked Poch came in, all in sundry blasted Saints for being soulless and ungrateful, but that decision not only likely maintained their PL status, turned them into a established top half side.
Every time a manager is under pressure, often what they achieved in the past is brought up, but the question is, while i certainly am an advocate of them getting more time than usual if they have proven pedigree (like with Jose last season), there is surely a line?
How long can past success save a manager?
posted on 10/2/17
Also Erik do you honestly believe Jose wasn't the most to blame for what happened at Chelsea last season?
posted on 10/2/17
Judging by Man Utd 0 games Heck talk of the sacking of LVG was in full force while we were lifting the fa cup Ed Woodward.
posted on 10/2/17
comment by Returning managers (U1762)
posted 55 minutes ago
comment by Eric_the_king (SE85) (U21241)
posted 5 hours, 20 minutes ago
You can continue to blame Jose but your players cheated your fans last season. They may have fallen out with Jose but they didn't even put the work in for match paying fans.
All is hunky dory at Chelsea right now but how long will it continue? We've been here before.
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A poor boss can demotivate even the keenest workforce, anyone who knows anything about life should know that.
As for cheating the fans, United players since Fergie retired fit that category like a glove
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We'll never know for sure what went on but in fairness, Chelsea players do have a reputation for this.
It's been alleged that 'player power' was behind the sackings of Scolari and AVB - refusing to play to a new style apparently and big personalities (Lampard and Cole I think) being rotated. Last season there was fairly strong reports that Mourinho was facing a revolt with some players just not playing for him.
All this is just heresay of course but it's consistent heresay with Chelsea.
Doesn't absolve Jose of blame for last season btw but the players surely need to take some responsibility too.
posted on 10/2/17
comment by Can Solo (U6997)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by Returning managers (U1762)
posted 55 minutes ago
comment by Eric_the_king (SE85) (U21241)
posted 5 hours, 20 minutes ago
You can continue to blame Jose but your players cheated your fans last season. They may have fallen out with Jose but they didn't even put the work in for match paying fans.
All is hunky dory at Chelsea right now but how long will it continue? We've been here before.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
A poor boss can demotivate even the keenest workforce, anyone who knows anything about life should know that.
As for cheating the fans, United players since Fergie retired fit that category like a glove
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We'll never know for sure what went on but in fairness, Chelsea players do have a reputation for this.
It's been alleged that 'player power' was behind the sackings of Scolari and AVB - refusing to play to a new style apparently and big personalities (Lampard and Cole I think) being rotated. Last season there was fairly strong reports that Mourinho was facing a revolt with some players just not playing for him.
All this is just heresay of course but it's consistent heresay with Chelsea.
Doesn't absolve Jose of blame for last season btw but the players surely need to take some responsibility too.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And it probably has happened at every club to an extent, look at Rafa's last season with you lot for example, even Gerrard looked fed up.
AVB changed too much too quickly, lets say this, if you inherited Dybala would you make him play on the shoulder of the last defender? No, so why would play a high line with Terry, Alex and Ivanovic in the team?
However there is a stronger case of it being more the players with AVB/Scolari than it was last season, as i have alluded to before, a case of players not putting in the usual effort you will slide a few places.
Even Costa, Cesc and Hazard on 50% would be too much for the bottom half teams more weeks than not. Jose lost the plot and physically and mentally exhausted the squad, last season is on him and only him. Hiddink came in and delivered top 4 challenging results and even that only just got us top half.
posted on 10/2/17
comment by Can Solo (U6997)
posted 20 minutes ago
comment by Returning managers (U1762)
posted 55 minutes ago
comment by Eric_the_king (SE85) (U21241)
posted 5 hours, 20 minutes ago
You can continue to blame Jose but your players cheated your fans last season. They may have fallen out with Jose but they didn't even put the work in for match paying fans.
All is hunky dory at Chelsea right now but how long will it continue? We've been here before.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
A poor boss can demotivate even the keenest workforce, anyone who knows anything about life should know that.
As for cheating the fans, United players since Fergie retired fit that category like a glove
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We'll never know for sure what went on but in fairness, Chelsea players do have a reputation for this.
It's been alleged that 'player power' was behind the sackings of Scolari and AVB - refusing to play to a new style apparently and big personalities (Lampard and Cole I think) being rotated. Last season there was fairly strong reports that Mourinho was facing a revolt with some players just not playing for him.
All this is just heresay of course but it's consistent heresay with Chelsea.
Doesn't absolve Jose of blame for last season btw but the players surely need to take some responsibility too.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Many players were playing for Scolari right to the end. I remember Lampard's reaction when he scored the winner against Stoke - the whole team ran to the manager to show a sign of support. Scolari fell out with a few important players, but never really did the team turn on him. In fact his record at Chelsea wasn't that bad. I didn't rate him as a manager, his tactics were awful, but we were never really that awful under him.
AVB tried way too much too soon, and like Returning managers says he used kamikaze tactics for us, which resulted in us being easy to beat. He also inherited a really awful team. The team was in a lot worse shape going into the season than most expected. Most of the big players were quickly on the decline. He takes some blame, but the main issue was the team was terrible.
Player revolts are usually used as a cheap way to explain any managerial failings. Very rarely do we see a whole team revolting against a manager.
posted on 10/2/17
comment by Broaquin (U16342)
posted 59 minutes ago
Player revolts are usually used as a cheap way to explain any managerial failings. Very rarely do we see a whole team revolting against a manager.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Possibly, I'd say managers carrying the can for players not playing to their potential is far, far more common.
What is even more likely is that it's a combination of the two, managers not knowing how to resolve a situation and certain players (not all) just chucking the towel in.
That's why I can't understand absolving the players from blame for last season and laying it all at Jose's door. I'm no fan of the man but that's insane imo. The performances that certain players put in last year were fairly shameful. As Hiddink showed when he came in, they might not have been in title winning form but neither should they have been where they were.
I think it's just easier to blame someone no longer at the club. Given you were champions 2 years ago and will be again this year, it's difficult to argue that the players couldn't have done more imo.
posted on 10/2/17
Can solo
Doesn't the fact Jose had results not much better this season upto December suggest it was him if we play it like that.
Have you played football at any level? Do you perform better when you have teammates who hurl abuse for the slightest miss pass or without them? If its the former you are one of a very few.
Also our team last year was routinely criticised for lacking leadership, yet at the same time im suppose to believe they found the balls to take on one of the most high profile ego's in football? I mean Ramires and Hazard conducting a grand plan to get Jose out, really?
Put it this way, i could have imagined last season would have still happened if we had Sturridge, KDB, Alderwierld and Cech instead of Costa, Hazard, Cahill and Courtois but if we had a different manager? No chance.
People who give anything less than 95% blame on Jose for last season are either trying to absolve him blame or a romantic. If a few players level has dropped you can maybe then look at the player, but all but one player and the reserve keeper in the worst form of his life? Sorry there's only one man responsible for that!!!!!!
posted on 10/2/17
Jose's playing the way United should.
Something tells me I'm into something good
posted on 10/2/17
Returning
I've played football to a very poor level. Still do trundle around a 5-a-side pitch! Obviously a good team spirit is incredibly important. That I would level at Jose.
Leadership? Not so sure. I'd argue it's really rather cowardly to down tools rather than a show of strength. I'm not saying it was a well organised coup but I suspect some players just chucked the towel in and intended to leave at the end of the season.
Believe me, I'm no fan of Mourinho but 95% blame on him? Nah, not for me. And I'm in no way a romantic either, I just believe that players should take personal responsibility for their performances.
posted on 10/2/17
comment by Can Solo (U6997)
posted 4 hours, 20 minutes ago
comment by Broaquin (U16342)
posted 59 minutes ago
Player revolts are usually used as a cheap way to explain any managerial failings. Very rarely do we see a whole team revolting against a manager.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Possibly, I'd say managers carrying the can for players not playing to their potential is far, far more common.
What is even more likely is that it's a combination of the two, managers not knowing how to resolve a situation and certain players (not all) just chucking the towel in.
That's why I can't understand absolving the players from blame for last season and laying it all at Jose's door. I'm no fan of the man but that's insane imo. The performances that certain players put in last year were fairly shameful. As Hiddink showed when he came in, they might not have been in title winning form but neither should they have been where they were.
I think it's just easier to blame someone no longer at the club. Given you were champions 2 years ago and will be again this year, it's difficult to argue that the players couldn't have done more imo.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The performances really didn't improve much after Hiddink came in.
The results last year for me come from three factors, tactics, moral and burnout.
Firstly we've only seen a improvement this year due to a tactical shift. The 4231 Mourinho was playing wasn't suited to the team, and the whole system lacked balance. Hiddink improved it a little by playing Mikel in midfield to solidify the team. Conte continued the tactics into this year, and we saw that the players continued to underperform. It was only changing to a 343 and giving Moses and Alonso opportunities in the first team; have we seen performances improve.
Moral was damaged last year, a lot of players were short on confidence. Matic, Hazard and Pedro were probably the most affected by the instability at the club. Hazard I think was falsely blamed, when in fact he did work hard for Mourinho right to the end. Mourinho even gave Eden a written dossier praising his performance against United, where he played striker.
Burn out was also a huge factor. The teams came into the season tired. They had a pretty tough season the year before, and nobody looked fit going into the season. Which again would be a big difference between this season and last.
Jose is not to blame for all these problems, however he could have managed it better. Had he changed the system, or been a more calm reassured figure then he would have kept his job.