Acid Attacks?!? How & when did this come

comment by redmisty (U7556)
posted 24 minutes ago
Take for example the Raoul moat situation, a disturbed maniac that shot a policeman or an honour shooting?
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Irrelevant example imo. I just pointed out the difference between an honour killling and a revenge killing. When a brother or father kills their own sister/daughter because she "shamed the family" then that is clearly not the same thing as an ex-boyfriend being a jealous nob.

On what basis could Raoul Moat's actions possibly be described as an honour killing?

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raul moat nah he was just a fackin lunatic

comment by redmisty (U7556)
posted 28 seconds ago
Take for example the Raoul moat situation, a disturbed maniac that shot a policeman or an honour shooting?
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Irrelevant example imo. I just pointed out the difference between an honour killling and a revenge killing. When a brother or father kills their own sister/daughter because she "shamed the family" then that is clearly not the same thing as an ex-boyfriend being a jealous nob.

On what basis could Raoul Moat's actions possibly be described as an honour killing?

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It isn't irrelevant and I only mentioned it as it was high profile. There are other examples I could use with fathers and brothers but they would just be crime stats unheard of.

The main issue is that honour killing isn't the be all and end all, honour violence is prevalent in countries around the world. I saw a stat recently that said in 2014-2016 there were 11,000 incidences of honour violence in the UK alone.

The victims of honour violence are more than just the women. Again though the detail is in the definition/description. So a man walks in in his wife and a man in bed and kills the man is not seen as honour killing/violence as he did it in a state of anger or didn't have time to think about it

Yet in the Moat case he planned it which is exactly what defines an honour killing/violence

comment by The Lambeau Leap (U21050)
posted 14 minutes ago
Take for example the Raoul moat situation, a disturbed maniac that shot a policeman or an honour shooting?

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Not a good example at all.

I feel like you're trying to deny that in certain cultures these attacks are not carried out due to a misguided sense of honour. The problem with argument is that it is that it contrary to the accepted facts in countries like Bangladesh, India and Pakistan.

You're conflating issues with that comparison. Honour killings and acid attacks are not synonymous. Acid attacks are not exclusive to any one culture. Nevertheless, there are many examples across South Asia of acid attacks being used against women because there's a misguided notion of family honour in certain areas in the developing world.

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Honour violence is a global issue. Some countries deal with it in ways that are not acceptable and I don't have a problem with saying that.

My issue here is that we have a) acid attacks being attributed to being the problem of certain countries. Yet the experts say that eg in Bangladesh the death penalty as punishment for avid attacks has reduced them from a few hundred a year to 75. Which is still 75 too many. Yet in the UK they have risen by 30% in London and the midlands alone

B) we have honour killings or as I think is better defined honour violence. The European Parliamentary Research Service has done reports on this and given it definitions, and raised the problems with definitions too.

They don't hesitate in naming certain countries as being culturally backwards in the issue, including Pakistan India etc, and I have no.problem with that. Where the issue gets weird is when an instance happens in UK outside of certain ethnic minorities and isn't treated as honour violence even though it fits their definitions

Its not making excuses for practices that are horrifying and need dealing with severity, its having a discussion around why some are differentiated

So the brothers and father of a white non muslim girl turning up with baseball bats to beat on an Asian/Muslim lad as he is about to marry her is not seen as honour violence but had it been the other way around it would have been front page news as a honour violence

That is a real case incidentally.

I saw a stat recently that said in 2014-2016 there were 11,000 incidences of honour violence in the UK alone.

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What you have conveniently (deliberately?) omitted is that that whole report was centred around the fact that this was a serious and widespread issue facing young Muslim women and women in ethnic communities across the U.K. All of the victims of the killings discussed in said report were young Muslim women who had been accused of dishonouring their families. I recall one case of a 17 year old girl who was killed because she had 'dishonoured' the family by adopting Western dress.

Not for a moment suggesting honour killing is an exclusively Muslim problem by the way - I've also read about examples from Sikh and Christian families.

Likewise, I don't for a second think that one group of people are more likely to commit an acid attack than any other.

However, as a society, we can't even begin to tackle these two separate issues unless people are willing to have Frank and honest discourse.

For instance, with honour killings, they aren't exclusive to the Muslim community in the U.K., and to suggest they are does a disservice to other victims (the one you have in the example above for instance). Nevertheless, the facts do lead us to believe that honour killings/attacks are statistically more commonplace in certain communities.. we can't allow ourselves to deny that truth for the sake of liberal propriety if we genuinely want to tackle the problem, rather than just moan about it and do nothing...

It isn't irrelevant and I only mentioned it as it was high profile. There are other examples I could use with fathers and brothers but they would just be crime stats unheard of.
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No - they would be examples relevant to my point! I.e. an honour killing is not a revenge killing. Profile has nothing to do with it, the motivation for the crime is the whole point if you are talking about how the nature of the crime is reported.

honour killing is when its within the family

anything else and its either a racist attack, crazed demented ex partner or a gang attack

comment by The Lambeau Leap (U21050)
posted 34 minutes ago
Not for a moment suggesting honour killing is an exclusively Muslim problem by the way - I've also read about examples from Sikh and Christian families.

Likewise, I don't for a second think that one group of people are more likely to commit an acid attack than any other.

However, as a society, we can't even begin to tackle these two separate issues unless people are willing to have Frank and honest discourse.

For instance, with honour killings, they aren't exclusive to the Muslim community in the U.K., and to suggest they are does a disservice to other victims (the one you have in the example above for instance). Nevertheless, the facts do lead us to believe that honour killings/attacks are statistically more commonplace in certain communities.. we can't allow ourselves to deny that truth for the sake of liberal propriety if we genuinely want to tackle the problem, rather than just moan about it and do nothing...
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I agree with you about the frank and honest discussions. Hopefully we are having one.

The issue for me is the labelling takes away from the crime. Its too simple to say honour killing or Muslim peedos in the Rochdale cases or Isis killers in the case of say the London incident and this is why in post what I do. That's not the same as saying they aren't Asian/Pakistani or Muslim

I do a bit of work speaking out against honour killings and the main focus of my talks is always about how the real culprits escape punishment. So for example the biggest perpetrators are actually women yet the main people sent down are men. This in itself is an honour issue where a son will take.the fall for his mother. This happens a lot. Even in India the main proponents of domestic violence is the mother

By labelling it as X it all fits neatly but doesn't resolve anything.

comment by The Lambeau Leap (U21050)
posted 51 minutes ago
I saw a stat recently that said in 2014-2016 there were 11,000 incidences of honour violence in the UK alone.

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What you have conveniently (deliberately?) omitted is that that whole report was centred around the fact that this was a serious and widespread issue facing young Muslim women and women in ethnic communities across the U.K. All of the victims of the killings discussed in said report were young Muslim women who had been accused of dishonouring their families. I recall one case of a 17 year old girl who was killed because she had 'dishonoured' the family by adopting Western dress.
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Yes it was deliberate

And the response I got was why

Honour killings as a "tradition" is more India than Islam and the cases of finding lopped of heads in bins etc was Sikhs

People are too easily led to believe brown of Asian = Muslim

It was the same with the acid attacks thing. Every time we get India Pakistan and bangladesh mentioned yet no one mentions Columbia

So for example the biggest perpetrators are actually women yet the main people sent down are men. This in itself is an honour issue where a son will take.the fall for his mother.

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That's interesting. Presumably that's a cross-culture phenomenon too? Very hard to get the CPS to turn away from a willing confessor I'd imagine, even with contradictory evidence.