Groundhog day

You can play 3 at the back and have a 5 man MF. Your Fbs just become LM and RM. I think you're getting a bit too caught up in the fact they're defenders strictly speaking Jenius. Modern Fbs are basically just defensive LMs with pace. 3-5-2/5-3-2 Tomato/Tomato really.

Either way, for it to work we need the MF sorting the he'll out. I actually think we have the players to make it work but Wenger's insistence on playing Ramsey/Xhaka will be the death of us. He simply can't be the metronome CM needed and Xhaka can't tackle well enough And isn't mobile enough to be a the DM.

Personally I think the solution is to move Xhaka to CM with Coq in the out and out DM role. Those two behind Ozil mean we don't need him to defend and Xhaka has the skill set to play the pass picking metronome required. With all current staff we have a title challenging squad. The problem will as always be how Wenger uses them. If he can't get over the fact that Ramsey can't do the job at hand, we're stuffed.

You can play 3 at the back and have a 5 man MF. Your Fbs just become LM and RM. I think you're getting a bit too caught up in the fact they're defenders strictly speaking Jenius. Modern Fbs are basically just defensive LMs with pace. 3-5-2/5-3-2 Tomato/Tomato really.
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Thats a cliche wb2. Its about starting positions. And if you play full backs with a higher starting position you leave that space in behind them. Which is why you need CBs to be very mobile and a true holding player who can cover side to side. Ramsey/Xhaka did not do that last season which is why we actually conceded a lot of very good full chances against us whilst we were on that run. This was my point earlier that the results flattered us. Our play wasn't as good as the start of the season when we were playing a flat back 4.

I agree that Ramsey is not that good in a centre two. I wanted us try him there last season and it worked better than Coq did with Xhaka but he was not that dominating figure. Which is why I feel we need to buy a Vieira type player who has size but can still carry the ball and distribute to partner Xhaka. You can then play Ramsey in the Pires type role whenever needed.

And the reason why I keep on going back to names like Pires, Gilberto, Vieira, Dennis, Freddie is because that was Wenger's most successful time at Arsenal and it still works today. That type of counter attacking formation won Leicester City the title with far poorer players.

Won't argue with you going back to those names one bit mate. I still think that going forward, short of a MF buy, we pretty much have to put Coq in that DM role. He unlike Xhaka CAN cover side to side. Xhaka in the MF ahead of him should mean he rarely need venture far from the back despite Ozils weak defence. I know they struggled to pair early on but that could just have been Xhaka's noob status.

Xhaka is definitely the closest thing we have to Veira and has the attributes to suit the role perfectly (possibly a little slow but paddy was hardly pacey). IMO, with Ozil shoed in for the AM spot Coq Xhaka behind him is realistically the only pairing that won't see the MF struggle, certainly against the top 6-8 teams.

Maybe the problem here is actually Ozil. After all it is ultimately his fault that we need both a sitter and a defensively minded CM. If he was willing to tackle and be a pain in the ass without the ball, then Ramsey at CM could work just fine.

I still think that going forward, short of a MF buy, we pretty much have to put Coq in that DM role.
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Not strong enough and definitely doesn't have the positional sense needed. If you think back to last season when Wenger was asked if Coquelin could fill in at right back. And his answer was that he doesn't have the strength to do that back and forward role. Coquelin is forever putting in last ditch challenges. Thats because he is not in the right position in the first place. Good holding players are always positioned in such a way that they can use their body to push players of the ball. Coquelin lets players run past him. Herrera and Dembele just bullied him last season. Its why Wenger was forced to go to a back 3! Essentially we have a big hole in front the CBs last season. I think eventually Maitland-Niles maybe that player but he needs to get at least two years of positional training for that role which Coq never got in my opinion. I love Coquelin's heart. But he needs to be utility player not a starter.

That's where I think Coq gets a raw deal. The fact he's not overrun and bullied at DM like that with Cazorla at CM suggests it's not actually Coq that's the problem. One of the reasons he's often out of position is because Ozil can't/doesn't tackle and Ramsey's always halfway into the penalty area.

It's unfair to criticise his positioning when it never posed a problem with a CM who wasn't always leaving him high and dry. Sorting out the defensive play of the two ahead of him allows him only the defensive 3rd to have to really worry about and to not always be facing attackers going full tilt.

As for him not being able to pĺay RB. That answer is proof that Wenger's lost his marbles. That's how he broke into the bloody team originally. He was almost a little revelation, doing more than adequately when called upon. That said though, I'll admit that was old school and he lacks the attributes to be a FB now. Sitting DM though, not at all. He just carries the caviat that says the two other MF need some defensive sense and attributes between them. As do most sitting DMs. Even Kante would struggle having to cover for both Ramsey being missing AND Ozil not tackling.

You're too harsh on Coq and not critical enough of (almost disregarding) of the gaping flaws in the two MFs he's been lumbered with. Coq had the best DM stats in the league before Kante blew onto the scene. Our MF chaos is far more about Ozil and Ramsey lacking in basic defensive duties, than Coq not being a good enough DM.

Ramsey is not poor defensively as far as I'm concerned, I've seen him do plenty of good defensive work. Ozil, is a different story.

Ramsey's problem defensively is the fact he's always too far up the pitch leaving his DM stranded. Unlike Ozil, he puts in a tackle and does work hard to defend, it's just no help to Coq when he's on the halfway line and Ramsey is in the penalty area.

If Ramsey would simply play deeper (where a CM is meant to) then he and Coq could work better defensively. Not sure if Ramsey just can't do it or Wenger just won't force him to. But either way it leaves the DM stuffed with Ozil barely tackling.

Don't get me wrong I like Ramsey as a player. This is about having a MF 3 containing Ozil. Ramsey is too attack minded to play at CM whilst Ozil is at CAM. We pretty much need two DMs to compensate for Ozil. A more settled Xhaka at CM, with Coq in the sitting role, is the only pairing (with current staff) that can put an end to the MF being overrun.

comment by Pep The Final Straw!! (Formerly WB2) (U8276)
posted 6 hours, 34 minutes ago
Ramsey's problem defensively is the fact he's always too far up the pitch leaving his DM stranded. Unlike Ozil, he puts in a tackle and does work hard to defend, it's just no help to Coq when he's on the halfway line and Ramsey is in the penalty area.

If Ramsey would simply play deeper (where a CM is meant to) then he and Coq could work better defensively. Not sure if Ramsey just can't do it or Wenger just won't force him to. But either way it leaves the DM stuffed with Ozil barely tackling.

Don't get me wrong I like Ramsey as a player. This is about having a MF 3 containing Ozil. Ramsey is too attack minded to play at CM whilst Ozil is at CAM. We pretty much need two DMs to compensate for Ozil. A more settled Xhaka at CM, with Coq in the sitting role, is the only pairing (with current staff) that can put an end to the MF being overrun.
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It's too simplistic to say "if Ramsey would simply play deeper" though, we need midfielders to get forward and support the attackers otherwise we will fail to break down most defences, it's about picking the right moments. Does that leave you a little bit more exposed? Sure, but that's a risk you have to take unless you want to have your team behind the ball for the entire game.

One of Ramsey's best attributes is his timing of run / breaking into the box late and I certainly wouldn't want him to stop doing that -> See winning FA Cup goal (2017).

YCBC

I get that and essentially it's not Ramsey directly that is the problem it's the combination of Ramsey with Ozil. Ramsey would be fine to be forward as much as he is if Ozil would defend. What happens currently is we're lacking 2 defenders on against any counter because Ramsey is out of position and Ozil ain't doin Jack. Leaving Coquelin stranded and scrambling. Which is the main reason he's often out of position, not because he generally lacks positional awareness as Jenius claims.

Cazorla never had any problem with supporting the attacks and not leaving Coq exposed. It might be harsh on Ramsey to take him out but if we have to lose Ramsey or Coq from the MF because AW insists on playing Ozil and Xhaka. Then sorry but it's Ramsey who should go. Of course this could all be solved by Wenger telling Ozil "You start defending when we lose the ball, like everyone else, or you can ride the bench all season" So much of our defensive frailty now is purely due to the opposition counter at full tilt because we can't press the ball as a unit thanks to Ozil and his "CBA with tackling and defence" game.

Cazorla never had any problem with supporting the attacks and not leaving Coq exposed.
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Not for the reason you think.

Santi Cazorla is superb on the ball. He rarely gives it away. Thats the reason why he was the only player Coq look good with. If you limit passing the ball to the opposition, they cannot break on you which means Coq is not caught of position. However with Ramsey and Xhaka for that matter Coquelin was continuously out of position when the opposition broke on us.

Why do you think Wenger pushed Coq into a box to box role?