or to join or start a new Discussion

Browse: Tennis  US Open 
129 Comments
Article Rating 2 Stars

Serena Williams Living Legend.

Definitely the GOAT, and she’s right that NEVER would have happened if she was a man.

Andy Roddick “ I’ve behaved far worse than that and never had a game taken off me"

Feel a bit sorry for that Japanese kid, but it’s not Serena’s fault what the media choose to cover, and she was actually very gracious towards her.

posted on 13/9/18

Good comment Phil

posted on 13/9/18

Reasonable caricature:
http://webneel.com/daily/3-serena-williams-caricature-mahesh?size=_original

Unreasonable one:
http://www.bandt.com.au/information/uploads/2018/09/Serena-Williams-726x445.jpg

Zulu cartoon:
http://media.gettyimages.com/vectors/african-tribe-headdress-female-zulu-portrait-of-cute-south-african-vector-id941797414?s=170667a&w=1007

comment by Elvis (U7425)

posted on 13/9/18

comment by Philspurs - Millionaire travel agent (U3278)
posted 18 minutes ago

comment by Elvis (U7425)
posted 1 hour, 44 minutes ago
comment by Upstairs At Eric's (U21889)
posted 28 minutes ago

It’s racist, offensive and has been rightly called out by the worlds media and decent folk around the world.

You continue to see whatever you want.
--------------------

You just keep repeating the same thing without addressing the actual cartoon. If it is so blatantly racist, you shouldn't have any problem whatsoever in pointing out to me why this is the case. But so far you have declined to do so. Why is that?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

I'll have a go at this.

The first thing to note is, you simply cannot view this single image in isolation, it's either willfully or unknowingly ignorant. There is a historical context to how black people have been represented in 'cartoon' form, which cannot be ignored.

The Jim Crow and 'Sambo' style depictions of African Americans was to hugely exaggerate features such as lips, hair, physique etc. All of this, stylistically, is represented in this current cartoon. Does Williams have exceptionally large lips in real life, or is it more to do with a stereotype of black women?

Then we get to the depiction of her opponent. Osaka is of Japanese and Haitian descent - with darker skin and hair. In the image, she's portrayed as white skinned with blonde hair. This draws attention to the idea of a distinction between the 'childish, angry black girl' and the 'well behaved white girl'. Can you propose a rational reason as to why the cartoonist might have chosen to whitewash Osaka other than this?

If you do not see the racism inherent in this image, then - charitably, I'd suggest you're not familiar enough with the historical context. I'd encourage you to read up and look at some examples of images from that era.
--------------------------------

Finally, an intelligent answer.

Yes, I am well aware of the Adventures of Little Black Sambo, who despite the stereotypical cartoons, was one of the few positive black characters of the time.

I just don't think that this cartoon adheres to those traits. Typically the characters in such cartoons are completely black, which isn't the case here.

I would say that Williams lips are pretty big - especially when she screams or smiles. Take a look at the photos online. They are the obvious feature that a cartoonist would look to enhance, irrespective of what her skin colour is. That is what happens with a caricature. My nose a bit on the big size, so any caricatures of me always exaggerate this feature. I appreciate the sensitivities around large lips/nose and black people, but how is a cartoonist supposed to draw a caricature of Williams without exaggerating her most prominent features? Should black people be treated differently when it comes to caricatures? Why is it ok to exaggerate Federer's chin and nose, but not William's prominent mouth?

I think you are also overlooking the fact that the cartoonist is making the point that Williams was being gobby. Of course he was going to exaggerate the size of her mouth. Maybe you need to better understand caricatures and how they have been historically been used in the press to make a point?

posted on 13/9/18

Phil

posted on 13/9/18

Elvis

posted on 14/9/18

https://www.facebook.com/1600503789/posts/10212236852348737/

posted on 14/9/18

comment by Elvis (U7425)
posted 20 hours, 5 minutes ago
comment by Philspurs - Millionaire travel agent (U3278)
posted 18 minutes ago

comment by Elvis (U7425)
posted 1 hour, 44 minutes ago
comment by Upstairs At Eric's (U21889)
posted 28 minutes ago

It’s racist, offensive and has been rightly called out by the worlds media and decent folk around the world.

You continue to see whatever you want.
--------------------

You just keep repeating the same thing without addressing the actual cartoon. If it is so blatantly racist, you shouldn't have any problem whatsoever in pointing out to me why this is the case. But so far you have declined to do so. Why is that?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

I'll have a go at this.

The first thing to note is, you simply cannot view this single image in isolation, it's either willfully or unknowingly ignorant. There is a historical context to how black people have been represented in 'cartoon' form, which cannot be ignored.

The Jim Crow and 'Sambo' style depictions of African Americans was to hugely exaggerate features such as lips, hair, physique etc. All of this, stylistically, is represented in this current cartoon. Does Williams have exceptionally large lips in real life, or is it more to do with a stereotype of black women?

Then we get to the depiction of her opponent. Osaka is of Japanese and Haitian descent - with darker skin and hair. In the image, she's portrayed as white skinned with blonde hair. This draws attention to the idea of a distinction between the 'childish, angry black girl' and the 'well behaved white girl'. Can you propose a rational reason as to why the cartoonist might have chosen to whitewash Osaka other than this?

If you do not see the racism inherent in this image, then - charitably, I'd suggest you're not familiar enough with the historical context. I'd encourage you to read up and look at some examples of images from that era.
--------------------------------

Finally, an intelligent answer.

Yes, I am well aware of the Adventures of Little Black Sambo, who despite the stereotypical cartoons, was one of the few positive black characters of the time.

I just don't think that this cartoon adheres to those traits. Typically the characters in such cartoons are completely black, which isn't the case here.

I would say that Williams lips are pretty big - especially when she screams or smiles. Take a look at the photos online. They are the obvious feature that a cartoonist would look to enhance, irrespective of what her skin colour is. That is what happens with a caricature. My nose a bit on the big size, so any caricatures of me always exaggerate this feature. I appreciate the sensitivities around large lips/nose and black people, but how is a cartoonist supposed to draw a caricature of Williams without exaggerating her most prominent features? Should black people be treated differently when it comes to caricatures? Why is it ok to exaggerate Federer's chin and nose, but not William's prominent mouth?

I think you are also overlooking the fact that the cartoonist is making the point that Williams was being gobby. Of course he was going to exaggerate the size of her mouth. Maybe you need to better understand caricatures and how they have been historically been used in the press to make a point?
----------------------------------------------------------------------

There's a lot we could go back and forth on here, but I can see you're not inclined to want to concede there is any element of racism involved, but I can't quite figure out why - is it concern of some sort of 'PC gone mad' or something along those lines?

To try and highlight my point a little more....as I think you've perhaps unwittingly actually helped to emphasize the point I was making about not viewing this image in isolation - let's talk about your nose!

I also have what some might view as a bigger than normal nose. We are truly blessed. So I'd expect it to to be over-emphasized in the form of caricature.

But, for a moment, let's say I'm in the public eye. And, let's say I'm Jewish, and well known for being so. Even with the exact same facial features I have now, if someone were to draw a cartoon of me with an oversized, possibly somewhat hooked nose - it immediately draws different connotations. You simply cannot just ignore the cultural context and history in such matters.

To extend that analogy further, in the same way the cartoonist whitewashed Osaka, perhaps in my 'big nosed Jew' cartoon, there'd be a 'normal' looking person in the background, perhaps wearing a Christian crucifix or something, to highlight the disparities between us. That's the kind of area we're in with this cartoon of Williams.

comment by Elvis (U7425)

posted on 14/9/18

comment by Philspurs - Millionaire travel agent (U3278)
posted 1 hour, 48 minutes ago

comment by Elvis (U7425)
posted 20 hours, 5 minutes ago
comment by Philspurs - Millionaire travel agent (U3278)
posted 18 minutes ago

comment by Elvis (U7425)
posted 1 hour, 44 minutes ago
comment by Upstairs At Eric's (U21889)
posted 28 minutes ago

It’s racist, offensive and has been rightly called out by the worlds media and decent folk around the world.

You continue to see whatever you want.
--------------------

You just keep repeating the same thing without addressing the actual cartoon. If it is so blatantly racist, you shouldn't have any problem whatsoever in pointing out to me why this is the case. But so far you have declined to do so. Why is that?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

I'll have a go at this.

The first thing to note is, you simply cannot view this single image in isolation, it's either willfully or unknowingly ignorant. There is a historical context to how black people have been represented in 'cartoon' form, which cannot be ignored.

The Jim Crow and 'Sambo' style depictions of African Americans was to hugely exaggerate features such as lips, hair, physique etc. All of this, stylistically, is represented in this current cartoon. Does Williams have exceptionally large lips in real life, or is it more to do with a stereotype of black women?

Then we get to the depiction of her opponent. Osaka is of Japanese and Haitian descent - with darker skin and hair. In the image, she's portrayed as white skinned with blonde hair. This draws attention to the idea of a distinction between the 'childish, angry black girl' and the 'well behaved white girl'. Can you propose a rational reason as to why the cartoonist might have chosen to whitewash Osaka other than this?

If you do not see the racism inherent in this image, then - charitably, I'd suggest you're not familiar enough with the historical context. I'd encourage you to read up and look at some examples of images from that era.
--------------------------------

Finally, an intelligent answer.

Yes, I am well aware of the Adventures of Little Black Sambo, who despite the stereotypical cartoons, was one of the few positive black characters of the time.

I just don't think that this cartoon adheres to those traits. Typically the characters in such cartoons are completely black, which isn't the case here.

I would say that Williams lips are pretty big - especially when she screams or smiles. Take a look at the photos online. They are the obvious feature that a cartoonist would look to enhance, irrespective of what her skin colour is. That is what happens with a caricature. My nose a bit on the big size, so any caricatures of me always exaggerate this feature. I appreciate the sensitivities around large lips/nose and black people, but how is a cartoonist supposed to draw a caricature of Williams without exaggerating her most prominent features? Should black people be treated differently when it comes to caricatures? Why is it ok to exaggerate Federer's chin and nose, but not William's prominent mouth?

I think you are also overlooking the fact that the cartoonist is making the point that Williams was being gobby. Of course he was going to exaggerate the size of her mouth. Maybe you need to better understand caricatures and how they have been historically been used in the press to make a point?
----------------------------------------------------------------------

There's a lot we could go back and forth on here, but I can see you're not inclined to want to concede there is any element of racism involved, but I can't quite figure out why - is it concern of some sort of 'PC gone mad' or something along those lines?

To try and highlight my point a little more....as I think you've perhaps unwittingly actually helped to emphasize the point I was making about not viewing this image in isolation - let's talk about your nose!

I also have what some might view as a bigger than normal nose. We are truly blessed. So I'd expect it to to be over-emphasized in the form of caricature.

But, for a moment, let's say I'm in the public eye. And, let's say I'm Jewish, and well known for being so. Even with the exact same facial features I have now, if someone were to draw a cartoon of me with an oversized, possibly somewhat hooked nose - it immediately draws different connotations. You simply cannot just ignore the cultural context and history in such matters.

To extend that analogy further, in the same way the cartoonist whitewashed Osaka, perhaps in my 'big nosed Jew' cartoon, there'd be a 'normal' looking person in the background, perhaps wearing a Christian crucifix or something, to highlight the disparities between us. That's the kind of area we're in with this cartoon of Williams.
--------------------------------

I just don't think that the cartoon is any different to a caricature of anyone else. I take on board your points about not viewing the drawing in isolation, but I just don't agree. My view is that everyone should be treated the same if there is ever to be true equality. If you make allowances (for want of a better word) for black people in such instances then you are treating people differently based in their skin colour, which is what we are trying to get away from. You'll never have equality, as you are creating/continuing a divide between people with different coloured skin.

posted on 16/9/18

Comment Deleted by Article Creator

posted on 24/9/18

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/tennis/45624387

getting exposed

Sign in if you want to comment
RATE THIS ARTICLE
Rate Breakdown
5
2 Votes
4
0 Votes
3
1 Vote
2
0 Votes
1
7 Votes

Average Rating: 2 from 10 votes

ARTICLE STATS
Day
Article RankingNot Ranked
Article ViewsNot Available
Average Time(mins)Not Available
Total Time(mins)Not Available
Month
Article RankingNot Ranked
Article ViewsNot Available
Average Time(mins)Not Available
Total Time(mins)Not Available