Football is a relatively simple game. Compare it to the routes run by American footballers, or the specific field positions taken by cricketers. It's more of a percentages game than a precise science (though some would have you believe that Pep, has it down to a science). Which is why it baffles me, in the modern era, when the most consistent sides adopt the tactic of a high press, don't give the opposition time to breath that our last three managerial appointments have not even tried this. Jose has maybe done it a little out of desperation but why does it have to take us to go a goal down?
It doesn't take a rocket science (or director of football) to recognise that winning the ball high up in the opposition half, it gives you a better chance of scoring. Giving quality players space to play exposes our weak central defenders and immobile DM. I understand the logic of sitting back if you have no faith in you defenders, but in practice it hasn't worked.
Apologies for stating the obvious, but needed to vent that.
The High Press
posted on 24/10/18
comment by Mumbai Martial (U3867)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Sheriff John Brown - Wenger Till I Die (U7482)
posted 8 minutes ago
Football is a relatively simple game. Compare it to the routes run by American footballers, or the specific field positions taken by cricketers. It's more of a percentages game than a precise science (though some would have you believe that Pep, has it down to a science).
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Think you have an overly simplistic view of football tactics. Yes, Pep does have it down to a science seeing as he took it to the next level with his Barca side a team that suffocated the life out of you and gave you no time to string 3 passes together. If it were that easy, everyone would be doing it.
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Actually the best teams around at the moment all do it in some way. The reason say Liverpool and City can do it over West Brom or stoke, is cos they can attract the calibre of player to make it work. Spurs do it, arsenal do it...I have no idea why we don't do it. Maybe our players aren't suited but they've sure as he'll shown that they are suited to counter attacking football. I think your over complicating the game to be honest. It's not all about telling individual players where to attack how high up to press, where they should stand to receive the ball. There s a lot of man management that goes all with those tactics and recruiting the right players to do it. I don't expect United to start playing some kind of pressing game and all of a sudden we are Barca 09-11, through the law of averages and the amount of top teams that play a successful form of pressing game we'd be much better off with it.
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My point was that the way Pep does it takes a hell of a lot of focused work, as his ex-players have all referenced his obsessive attention to minute details. And he has been willing to sacrifice players of the caliber of Aguero when he felt they couldn't implement what he wants. He implements the style better than anyone because he grasps the "science" of it. Some elements in the way Pep's teams played were counter-intuitive when I initially watched them. The way he split the centre backs. The way the fullbacks (particularly at Bayern) would drift infield to the CM area. The ridiculous position of his high line that always made me wonder how teams couldn't cut through it on the counter. I'm just saying there is substantial tactical input into his method and I sensed some derision when you said "some would have you believe that Pep, has it down to a science".
posted on 24/10/18
comment by Sheriff John Brown - Wenger Till I Die (U7482)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Mumbai Martial (U3867)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Sheriff John Brown - Wenger Till I Die (U7482)
posted 8 minutes ago
Football is a relatively simple game. Compare it to the routes run by American footballers, or the specific field positions taken by cricketers. It's more of a percentages game than a precise science (though some would have you believe that Pep, has it down to a science).
--------------------------------------
Think you have an overly simplistic view of football tactics. Yes, Pep does have it down to a science seeing as he took it to the next level with his Barca side a team that suffocated the life out of you and gave you no time to string 3 passes together. If it were that easy, everyone would be doing it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually the best teams around at the moment all do it in some way. The reason say Liverpool and City can do it over West Brom or stoke, is cos they can attract the calibre of player to make it work. Spurs do it, arsenal do it...I have no idea why we don't do it. Maybe our players aren't suited but they've sure as he'll shown that they are suited to counter attacking football. I think your over complicating the game to be honest. It's not all about telling individual players where to attack how high up to press, where they should stand to receive the ball. There s a lot of man management that goes all with those tactics and recruiting the right players to do it. I don't expect United to start playing some kind of pressing game and all of a sudden we are Barca 09-11, through the law of averages and the amount of top teams that play a successful form of pressing game we'd be much better off with it.
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My point was that the way Pep does it takes a hell of a lot of focused work, as his ex-players have all referenced his obsessive attention to minute details. And he has been willing to sacrifice players of the caliber of Aguero when he felt they couldn't implement what he wants. He implements the style better than anyone because he grasps the "science" of it. Some elements in the way Pep's teams played were counter-intuitive when I initially watched them. The way he split the centre backs. The way the fullbacks (particularly at Bayern) would drift infield to the CM area. The ridiculous position of his high line that always made me wonder how teams couldn't cut through it on the counter. I'm just saying there is substantial tactical input into his method and I sensed some derision when you said "some would have you believe that Pep, has it down to a science".
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Fair point, and there is no doubt that Pep is the best at and has an unbelievable attention to detail. I think you are undervaluing the motivational side to Pep's methods. It's a mixture of both. The way his teams play require it. The intensity his teams play at does not come from the emotional side of things. Perhaps I worded it a bit badly, what I meant to imply was that "Pep has this methodical way of playing that system, and some would have you believe that it is the only way of doing it". No other manager could produce an exact copy of what Pep has done, but it doesn't mean other managers have to, to be as successful.
posted on 24/10/18
Anyone that thinks football is a simple game or that a 'high press' would solve our problems has a clear, fundamental lack of knowledge of the game.
What city are, what bayern and barca were is far far far more than just a high press. There is an enormous amount of strategic and positional fluidity that goes into building a team like that, it's why it takes those teams, and the best players in the world at least a year to learn it.
Real Madrid have gone from 3 back to back champions leagues to the worst goalscoring run in their history because they've switched to a high press.
A high press has his merits, but so does 442 which won Leicester the title, so does park a solid counter attack (Real) so does 3 at the back (Chelsea)
OP could not be further off with this article
posted on 24/10/18
comment by JHernandezMUFC (U18093)
posted 1 minute ago
Anyone that thinks football is a simple game or that a 'high press' would solve our problems has a clear, fundamental lack of knowledge of the game.
What city are, what bayern and barca were is far far far more than just a high press. There is an enormous amount of strategic and positional fluidity that goes into building a team like that, it's why it takes those teams, and the best players in the world at least a year to learn it.
Real Madrid have gone from 3 back to back champions leagues to the worst goalscoring run in their history because they've switched to a high press.
A high press has his merits, but so does 442 which won Leicester the title, so does park a solid counter attack (Real) so does 3 at the back (Chelsea)
OP could not be further off with this article
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Good post
posted on 24/10/18
Anyone that thinks football is a simple game or that a 'high press' would solve our problems has a clear, fundamental lack of knowledge of the game.
...................
1. Football is a simple game. It is made difficult by people trying to hard to be clever.
2. No one has said a high press will solve all our problems.
But actually pressing be it high up the field, in mid field or at the back will certainly improve our chances of winning the ball back.
Letting teams attack you and hoping they will lose it (that is exactly what we do) will eventually lead to them scoring.
posted on 24/10/18
comment by Mumbai Martial (U3867)
posted 11 hours, 36 minutes ago
Our sponsorship signings have been world class though. City can only dream of having Kohler on their sleaves
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No, but they've got Pep, see?
posted on 24/10/18
NFL players routes are not complicated at all. each player only needs to know his pattern on any designed play. football is much more spontaneous. you don't have time to stop the play and make a plan.
posted on 25/10/18
comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 15 hours, 37 minutes ago
Anyone that thinks football is a simple game or that a 'high press' would solve our problems has a clear, fundamental lack of knowledge of the game.
...................
1. Football is a simple game. It is made difficult by people trying to hard to be clever.
2. No one has said a high press will solve all our problems.
But actually pressing be it high up the field, in mid field or at the back will certainly improve our chances of winning the ball back.
Letting teams attack you and hoping they will lose it (that is exactly what we do) will eventually lead to them scoring.
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This. At it's heart football is a simple game. People are misconstruing what I'm saying as, just tell the players to press and we'll batter teams.
People can argue over the complexities of how you press, but it's a fairly simple concept that if you win the ball closer to the opposition goal, you will score more goals.
That's not to say that some managers don't go into much more detail than others and make a success of it.
Sarri is the perfect example. Chelsea were used to playing a certain for the past few years, Sarri has them instantly playing some of the best football in the league. It's as much if not more about how your players take on board tactics, as it is how complex or detailed they are.
posted on 25/10/18
comment by montleeds (U18330)
posted 9 hours, 1 minute ago
NFL players routes are not complicated at all. each player only needs to know his pattern on any designed play. football is much more spontaneous. you don't have time to stop the play and make a plan.
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I'd argue the spontaneous nature of football makes less complex not more. You are reacting on instinct and ability.
If you are taking about one route on one play then yes, but when you have to learn 100s of routes for one game (not all to be used) and have instant recall of where you are supposed to stand, how many yards you have to run, what angle to run at and then think on your feet on top of that. I doubt any footballer has to think about the game outside of training or a match as much as an American football player.
posted on 25/10/18
comment by JHernandezMUFC (U18093)
posted 18 hours, 13 minutes ago
Anyone that thinks football is a simple game or that a 'high press' would solve our problems has a clear, fundamental lack of knowledge of the game.
What city are, what bayern and barca were is far far far more than just a high press. There is an enormous amount of strategic and positional fluidity that goes into building a team like that, it's why it takes those teams, and the best players in the world at least a year to learn it.
Real Madrid have gone from 3 back to back champions leagues to the worst goalscoring run in their history because they've switched to a high press.
A high press has his merits, but so does 442 which won Leicester the title, so does park a solid counter attack (Real) so does 3 at the back (Chelsea)
OP could not be further off with this article
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Again this has completely misconstrued what I am saying. I'm not saying pressing teams is the only way to be successful in the modern game, what I'm saying is we have had 5 years of differing tactics that have failed to produce the kind of entertainment we want to see.
Moyes - tried a mixture of things that never really spoke to any sort of footballing identity, that couple with the realisation he was probably out of his depth meant it never worked.
Van Gaal - I liked LVG, to be fair to him I could actually see what he was trying to do. He had a clear style of passing game, which he admitted himself was designed to force the opposition into making mistakes. We lacked the intensity (and probably the players to implement it). We didn't win the ball high up, we were happy to stroke it around the edge of the box (behave) and it allowed teams to get set again.
Jose - clearly wants us to play a counter attacking style of football. We are happy to let teams have the ball and counter them, the problem is when we eventually win it back, as our possession is limited each pass becomes vital and our players seem to S$%t them selves. We have shown over the past 2 and a bit years we don't have the players to do this.
We sat off Juve that first half and they toyed with us to be honest. At half time we started to press a little and it worked to a limited extent. It was a simple change which saw us on the front foot to more than we had been.
I do realise that some managers do go down to the minutiae, and make the game sound complicated. My argument would be it doesn't have to be. I'd argue our current manager over complicates things from a defensive stand point, setting up to deal with other teams threats.