I've said for a long time now that the one thread throughout our downfall over the last 5 years has been one man - Woodward and all I ever get is how is it his fault hes not the player or the manager??
When will you put 2 and 2 together and make 4?
I get frustrated with you lot
posted on 27/11/18
We did not agree on Reina. I stated it at the time, when Reina was barely putting the effort in to actually save a shot. He subsequently went on to play for other big clubs and has never got near the level he was at. Those clubs must have had poor gk coaches also.
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He had his best years at Liverpool but there are other factors at other clubs to consider. You can't just go straight to the keeping coach.
He was behind better keepers sometimes, doesn't mean he was crap, and Napoli fans were very happy with Reina from where I'm sitting.
Therefore, Reina's absolutely worst period in his career was only in the months under Achterberg. He has never been that bad before or since and has had a decent career overall as keepers go, apart from that Achterberg period, where he was worse than average.
posted on 27/11/18
I'm speculating? The whole premise of your judgement of a coach is pure speculation as you have no idea whether he's any good or not. In fact you defeat your own logic. You decided he wasn't any good as our goalkeepers weren't any good. Now our goalkeeper is good it's nothing to do with the coach. Using your logic the coach will coach the quality out of him and he'll become a poor keeper. Luckily that's not how it works.
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What's funny is that we're both speculating.
If I can't know he's crap, then you can't know he isn't.
From that point, as fans, we rely on the next best thing. What does available evidence suggest? Note the word 'suggest' so its not gospel obviously.
In any case, I said you speculated about Buvac in order to make a point. You said Buvac was defensive coach but how can you know this? Perhaps you have a good source, otherwise its speculation as well?
Also, you can't say I'm speculating about Achterberg at the same level as you
I have presented
-the deterioration of Reina
-the deterioration of Karius,
-the non-improvement of Mig,
-Keeper signings that he can't improve over more than 3 years
-Current keeper purchased while at high level, developed to this level by other coaches because we failed to develop any good keepers ourselves.
-Grobbelaar's comments which are unique. How many times does that happen. No smoke without fire.
You've honestly presented nothing close to this.
As fans this is the best we can get. By your logic no fans can ever go on a forum and demand that so and so be sacked for reasons 1,2,3...
Let's close down the site, no? Just about everything we discuss here is speculation then.
Finally, seeing as Achterberg was able to keep Mig consistently in the form he was in when he joined, I suspect he'll be able to maintain Allison's form at the level he has joined.
Its documented we had a policy of signing potential and improving said potential, like Coutinho. As far as keepers go, we failed abysmally in that endeavor after many years trying.
I don't see how the goalkeeping coach can then escape criticism from fans. Either buy top level keepers or bring in a coach who can improve the potential you sign. We went with the former.
posted on 27/11/18
Well yes, it's speculation when talking about something you don't know anything about. However I'm going with what all the managers have kept him have said rather than what people who don't have a clue have said.
As I said Reina deteriorated when he didn't get his move, this is well documented.
Karius and Mignolet were nothing but potential, Mignolet has improved but ultimately hasn't been good enough, Karius has been poor from the very start. Again, if it were easy to turn poor players into good ones you wouldn't need to buy players, just coaches.
Life isn't so black and white, there's many variables. Ultimately a coach can be great at their job but the player simply doesn't reach a high level. Similarly a player can reach a high level with a poor coach. We certainly can't use the level of a player to judge a coach, we can only use their methods, which we don't know but the managers do, who have stated they think he's an excellent coach. So do we go with the people who don't have a clue or the people who do? It's not a tough choice for me.
“First of all, John is a goalkeeper maniac. He's working constantly,” Klopp told the ECHO.
“It's so easy. All the people in the pubs think they know and understand football 100%.
“But if you asked them: 'What does a goalkeeper do?' They couldn't say more than 'catch balls'. They have no clue about goalkeeper techniques and all that stuff.
“John is the first in the building and the last to leave. No matter how early I get into Melwood, I get up the stairs and he's already there - sat there with the laptop open watching goalkeepers from the other end of the world.
“He's constantly in there developing, changing training programmes, working with the boys. For me, he's a fantastic goalkeeper coach.
“There's not any reason for criticism. He's also a fantastic lad.”
These are not the words of somebody simply not calling out another in public. I'm going to go with Klopp here.
posted on 27/11/18
These are not the words of somebody simply not calling out another in public. I'm going to go with Klopp here.
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They sound just like what they are trained to say in such situations.
I'm sure it happens in football that one staff thinks another is crap but we never hear about it. All they do in public is wax lyrical 100% of the time so relying on that, as opposed to what we have witnessed over the years is pretty naive IMO.
Klopp would say that even if Achterberg was crap so how can it carry any relevance, surely?
How many times are good things said about staff only for them to be sacked a short while later?
I agree there are many variables of which fans don't really consider, normally. Even now United fans want Jose gone 'without considering all the variables'.
Basically, saying there are many variables is a counterargument to just about anything posted on a football forum. It sounds like a last resort whereas any evidence available to a fan suggests the opposite is true.
Anyway, some good points but I'll stick to my opinion borne out of what I have witnessed with my eyes and heard with my ears as opposed to relying on what a member of a football club says about another, especially in view of the fact that no one has ever called out another in public for being crap while still at the same club.
In fact, we know that they lie through their teeth more often than they tell the truth about one another.
posted on 27/11/18
Absolute nonsense. Managers would not give such glowing reviews of somebody they didn't rate. They would give a generic answer and he would y be there much longer.
Trying to pass this off as just lip service for the public is pathetic on your part but does serve to prove that you've formed your opinion, with no knowledge of the subject, and you won't budge. That's fine but I'm out.
posted on 27/11/18
Ok if you think that wasn't a generic answer (based on nothing but your gut feeling that it isn't) then who am I to argue.
You don't know whether its generic or honest. You just chose to believe it is.
posted on 27/11/18
"Ok if you think that wasn't a generic answer"
You're telling me this seems generic to you?
If I were being generic I'd say, yeah, he's a good coach. I'd then sack him as I believe he's crap. I wouldn't give a glowing review of him and keep him at the club.
Do you realise how crazy you sound?
“First of all, John is a goalkeeper maniac. He's working constantly,”
“John is the first in the building and the last to leave. No matter how early I get into Melwood, I get up the stairs and he's already there - sat there with the laptop open watching goalkeepers from the other end of the world.
“He's constantly in there developing, changing training programmes, working with the boys. For me, he's a fantastic goalkeeper coach.
“There's not any reason for criticism. He's also a fantastic lad.”
posted on 27/11/18
If I were being generic I'd say, yeah, he's a good coach. I'd then sack him as I believe he's crap. I wouldn't give a glowing review of him and keep him at the club.
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I guess we can disagree on what's genetic or not.
However, you've failed to give the context in which that statement was made which would prove that its nothing but a generic defence of Achterberg, made because Achterberg was being criticised so much that eventually Klopp was asked.
This report provides the context
https://www.thisisanfield.com/2018/08/jurgen-klopp-defends-liverpool-goalkeeper-coach-john-achterberg-from-people-in-the-pubs/
“There's not any reason for criticism. He's also a fantastic lad.”
This quote gives it away in the end.
So you're saying that in this situation Klopp would just say 'yeah he's a good coach'? That would diffuse the situation, no? If he said just that he'd be fanning the flames. This seems so obvious to me.
Its a generic defence of the man, the club were probably aware and they are prepped for these questions. There are people whose job it is to know these things and prepare. Its also likely Klopp was aware he'd be questioned on Achterberg before hand.
Therefore the quote you rely on was actually made in defence of the man. It could have been the truth or not, but its certainly a generic defence of a fellow member of staff and cannot be relied upon.
What Klopp said is the only thing he could have said regardless of anything else.
He would also say it even if Achterberg was crap, so how can it be a basis for deciding Achterberg isn't crap?
posted on 28/11/18
Nothing can prove it is a generic statement. Read the actual words.
Why in the world would somebody give such a glowing review of another and keep him in a job of he thought he was crap?
You're nuts.
posted on 30/11/18
It happens all the time.
I'm not nuts, sorry.