I was a fan of VAR. I thought it worked ok in the World Cup and when we started the following season without it, it seemed like something good was missing.
This season though, what a nightmare!
I always thought that the black and white nature of an offside decision was an easy thing to deal with, a bit like the goal line tech. but i find myself having a real issue with the tiny margins we are dealing with. 2 decisions come to mind, Sons vs Leicester and Firmino this past weekend. Links to the images shown here:
Firmino - https://twitter.com/premierleague/status/1190659803229671424/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1190659803229671424&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.co.uk%2Fsport%2Ffootball%2F50295529
Son -
https://inews.co.uk/images-i.jpimedia.uk/imagefetch/https://inews.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/var-offside.jpg?width=640
Now both these decisions are less than 1inch offside. In Sons's case it was stated as 16mm offside. That's the width of your little finger! Firmino's looks something similarly minute.
When you look at the imagery provided, one has to conclude that there will be some degree of inaccuracy in where they draw the line from the player.
To start with its being done by a human. Also we are dealing with a TV screen where one pixel difference can be equal to 2 inches. With Firmino, it looks like theyve taken the line from his armpit. Where does the armpit start and end? The offside rule only relates to part of the body which you can score with - so not the arm, but presumably the armpit is ok.
On the other side of this is when the ball is kicked. If you think of a striker moving goalwards and a defender pushing up and the offside decision being 16mm, then the precise moment the ball is kicked can affect this. Stop the image 0.01 second earlier or later and the decision might be different.
The point i am getting at is that if we are going to judge these matetrs on such absolute minute margins, then surely every aspect of the the assessment needs to be scientifically done. Unless players all wear skin tight kit and have lines marked on them where the bits that can be judged offside start and end, then we will get some geek in a darkened room drawing lines on a TV screen where actually the degree of accuracy they seek is probably not achievable in a full proof way.
I hate the fact that we are now judging these things on such minute margins. Football is not that clinical and does not need to be IMO - Cricket, rugby both have a degree of error and the obvious errors are avoided. The very marginal ones have that tolerable margin of error....look at forward passes in a rugby WC final....there was no lines drawn on the screen, the ref reviewed it and stated it wasn't an obvious forward pass, and that's good enough and accepted by all. To me this same level of judgement is needed with offsides so to avoid the obvious error. Not sure how but may be a margin of error is allowed, say 50mm. If it's less than that it stays with the on-field decision. I don't know!
What i do know is I find this degree of accuracy and the time taken and some of the outcomes we are now seeing as ruining the spontaneous nature of football and the viewing experience. The offside rule was never introduced to determine offside on this level - someones armpit or big toe nail being offside, its laughable
VAR & Offside
posted on 6/11/19
Winston is always right and he has nice balls (U1721)
I'm not expecting you to accept that I am right and you are wrong - you are turning this into me vs you, win vs lose, because that's what you do.
I don't claim to be fully informed.
I just read what you said and I know it's wrong because I've read the explanation of what happened on the weekend.
You can either have a look or not - that's up to you.
If you were genuinely interested in learning rather than just digging your heels into an entrenched view then you'd research.
But we know from many, many discussions that you're not.
posted on 6/11/19
comment by Boss By Hugo (U18550)
posted 20 hours, 43 minutes ago
comment by Loco Liverpool (U18018)
posted 23 seconds ago
I don't know the science or anything to it, but I'm pretty sure you can't even accurately determine if a player is offside by such a small margin when the camera is recording from an angle that isn't directly in line with the players.
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It's stupid is what it is. If they are going into that level of detail then they need to do the same with the passer of the ball. At what mini-second did he touch the ball for it to have left it's foot. At that point - we might as well start watching netball.
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Exactly, I saw a photo of a VAR call for off side and the ball was a meter in front of the passer's foot. That is probably a few milliseconds in time, but the ball was already gone from the foot. So they player was probably not off side then, but got called off side anyway.
posted on 6/11/19
comment by Klopptimus Prime - Die Unerträglichen (U1282)
posted 1 hour, 39 minutes ago
The use of the word manipulation indicates its been altered to achieve a desired outcome. This implies bias or cheating. Liverpool the victims of under hand refereeing
------
The idea that refs are asked to back each others decision is not insane. Quotes from a former ref have been provided.
The VAR ref did not want to make his buddy look stupid so he did his best to make it offside. It can be argued that this is what has been happening and causing VAR to be a joke.
Why are you making this about Liverpool? Can't you look at the issue without bringing club rivalry into it? Pathetic.
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That is grasping at straws, a marginal off side decision like that is almost impossible for a lino to call right with total certainty...hell even VAR looks uncertain. It's not covering a colleague back on such decisions, its the very purpose of VAR.........except VAR isnt accurate enough to provide a watertight answer.
posted on 6/11/19
comment by sᴉɥƃuǝlפ (U19365)
posted 48 minutes ago
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 3 hours, 19 minutes ago
comment by Firmino's Brightest Tooth (U1217)
posted 9 hours, 49 minutes ago
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 3 hours, 13 minutes ago
comment by Firmino's Brightest Tooth (U1217)
posted 2 hours, 11 minutes ago
comment by Dubbed the new Emery (U21076)
posted 36 minutes ago
Why is everyone peeing their pants over the Firmino decision? He was offside.
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Shut up.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
wheres the evidence he was on side. VAR shows him offside by a tiny margin
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No it doesn't.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
errr, yes it does:
https://twitter.com/premierleague/status/1190659803229671424/photo/1
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Devonshire, I take it you didn't bother reading any further than the original tweet.
Check this out: https://twitter.com/darjackTHFC/status/1190676458202714113?s=20
This shows that a ball hitting your armpit is also hitting your arm (it is impossible for it not to be).
Therefore any goal scored with your armpit will have made contact with your arm.
As such it should be disallowed meaning it is in no way legitimately possible to score with your armpit.
Winston, what are your views on this?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
side issue, but thanks for pointing this out.
posted on 6/11/19
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 22 seconds ago
comment by Klopptimus Prime - Die Unerträglichen (U1282)
posted 1 hour, 39 minutes ago
The use of the word manipulation indicates its been altered to achieve a desired outcome. This implies bias or cheating. Liverpool the victims of under hand refereeing
------
The idea that refs are asked to back each others decision is not insane. Quotes from a former ref have been provided.
The VAR ref did not want to make his buddy look stupid so he did his best to make it offside. It can be argued that this is what has been happening and causing VAR to be a joke.
Why are you making this about Liverpool? Can't you look at the issue without bringing club rivalry into it? Pathetic.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That is grasping at straws, a marginal off side decision like that is almost impossible for a lino to call right with total certainty...hell even VAR looks uncertain. It's not covering a colleague back on such decisions, its the very purpose of VAR.........except VAR isnt accurate enough to provide a watertight answer.
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Yeah you can make your point without getting tribal when challenged, that's all.
posted on 6/11/19
comment by Metro.⚽️ (U6770)
posted 1 hour, 3 minutes ago
There’s no longer a debate around the Firmino call.
It’s now the consensus that he was clearly onside and that they changed the lines in order to deny the goal.
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actions and motive are 2 different things. They MAY have changed the lines but their reasoning is not known, unless ive missed the refs. coming out and admitting this.
posted on 6/11/19
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 20 minutes ago
comment by sᴉɥƃuǝlפ (U19365)
posted 48 minutes ago
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 3 hours, 19 minutes ago
comment by Firmino's Brightest Tooth (U1217)
posted 9 hours, 49 minutes ago
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 3 hours, 13 minutes ago
comment by Firmino's Brightest Tooth (U1217)
posted 2 hours, 11 minutes ago
comment by Dubbed the new Emery (U21076)
posted 36 minutes ago
Why is everyone peeing their pants over the Firmino decision? He was offside.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Shut up.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
wheres the evidence he was on side. VAR shows him offside by a tiny margin
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No it doesn't.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
errr, yes it does:
https://twitter.com/premierleague/status/1190659803229671424/photo/1
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Devonshire, I take it you didn't bother reading any further than the original tweet.
Check this out: https://twitter.com/darjackTHFC/status/1190676458202714113?s=20
This shows that a ball hitting your armpit is also hitting your arm (it is impossible for it not to be).
Therefore any goal scored with your armpit will have made contact with your arm.
As such it should be disallowed meaning it is in no way legitimately possible to score with your armpit.
Winston, what are your views on this?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
side issue, but thanks for pointing this out.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Why is it a side issue?
Did VAR agree that was a penalty? YES.
Did the ball hit his armpit? YES.
So if the ball hits Sissoko's armpit in the penalty area and VAR awards a penalty then how on earth can Firmino's armpit be offside as a precedent has already been set saying it's not part of the body that can legally be used to score a goal.
If you cannot legally score a goal with a part of your body then that part of the body CANNOT be offside.
Also, I notice Winston has decided not to give his views on this. I wonder why?
posted on 6/11/19
comment by sᴉɥƃuǝlפ (U19365)
posted 12 minutes ago
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 20 minutes ago
comment by sᴉɥƃuǝlפ (U19365)
posted 48 minutes ago
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 3 hours, 19 minutes ago
comment by Firmino's Brightest Tooth (U1217)
posted 9 hours, 49 minutes ago
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 3 hours, 13 minutes ago
comment by Firmino's Brightest Tooth (U1217)
posted 2 hours, 11 minutes ago
comment by Dubbed the new Emery (U21076)
posted 36 minutes ago
Why is everyone peeing their pants over the Firmino decision? He was offside.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Shut up.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
wheres the evidence he was on side. VAR shows him offside by a tiny margin
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No it doesn't.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
errr, yes it does:
https://twitter.com/premierleague/status/1190659803229671424/photo/1
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Devonshire, I take it you didn't bother reading any further than the original tweet.
Check this out: https://twitter.com/darjackTHFC/status/1190676458202714113?s=20
This shows that a ball hitting your armpit is also hitting your arm (it is impossible for it not to be).
Therefore any goal scored with your armpit will have made contact with your arm.
As such it should be disallowed meaning it is in no way legitimately possible to score with your armpit.
Winston, what are your views on this?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
side issue, but thanks for pointing this out.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Why is it a side issue?
Did VAR agree that was a penalty? YES.
Did the ball hit his armpit? YES.
So if the ball hits Sissoko's armpit in the penalty area and VAR awards a penalty then how on earth can Firmino's armpit be offside as a precedent has already been set saying it's not part of the body that can legally be used to score a goal.
If you cannot legally score a goal with a part of your body then that part of the body CANNOT be offside.
Also, I notice Winston has decided not to give his views on this. I wonder why?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Theoretically the armpit is not part of the arm, in the same way the shoulder isnt. Its not handball if it hits the shoulder. SO theoretically (and we are dealing with a situation where we are judging offside not handball) the armpit can be offside, whether the ball can hit the armpit without also hitting the are is a moot point...where do you suggest we draw the line on that bit of the body that can be offside and what can be on...It gets ridiculous.
Overall, you're missing my overriding point here in that there are grey areas with what parts of the body can and cant be offside, where that starts and ends....so where there are such inherent inaccuracies and subjective judgements made, that does not sit well with decisons made on such tiny margins.
Whether Frimino is 1 inch onside or 1 inch offside, who wants decisions like this.
BTW, i can roll a ball up the side of my body and have it touch my armpit without it touching my arm
posted on 6/11/19
comment by sᴉɥƃuǝlפ (U19365)
posted 25 minutes ago
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 20 minutes ago
comment by sᴉɥƃuǝlפ (U19365)
posted 48 minutes ago
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 3 hours, 19 minutes ago
comment by Firmino's Brightest Tooth (U1217)
posted 9 hours, 49 minutes ago
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 3 hours, 13 minutes ago
comment by Firmino's Brightest Tooth (U1217)
posted 2 hours, 11 minutes ago
comment by Dubbed the new Emery (U21076)
posted 36 minutes ago
Why is everyone peeing their pants over the Firmino decision? He was offside.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Shut up.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
wheres the evidence he was on side. VAR shows him offside by a tiny margin
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No it doesn't.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
errr, yes it does:
https://twitter.com/premierleague/status/1190659803229671424/photo/1
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Devonshire, I take it you didn't bother reading any further than the original tweet.
Check this out: https://twitter.com/darjackTHFC/status/1190676458202714113?s=20
This shows that a ball hitting your armpit is also hitting your arm (it is impossible for it not to be).
Therefore any goal scored with your armpit will have made contact with your arm.
As such it should be disallowed meaning it is in no way legitimately possible to score with your armpit.
Winston, what are your views on this?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
side issue, but thanks for pointing this out.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Why is it a side issue?
Did VAR agree that was a penalty? YES.
Did the ball hit his armpit? YES.
So if the ball hits Sissoko's armpit in the penalty area and VAR awards a penalty then how on earth can Firmino's armpit be offside as a precedent has already been set saying it's not part of the body that can legally be used to score a goal.
If you cannot legally score a goal with a part of your body then that part of the body CANNOT be offside.
Also, I notice Winston has decided not to give his views on this. I wonder why?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The whole thing with the Sisokko penalty was not that it didnt hit his arm (& arm pit), that's clear as day, but that it deflected off his body on to his arm.
This didnt set an 'armpit penalty precedent' and to suggest it does is laughable.
posted on 6/11/19
"Also, I notice Winston has decided not to give his views on this. I wonder why"
sᴉɥƃuǝlפ, well it's because I've had a sheite day at work trying to deal with one of my competitors attempting to feck me over with a major client - but I'm sure you'd like to create a narrative different to that, so do tell me what conspiracy theory you've come up with.
Leaving that aside, I'm not really sure why you're getting so excited.
Firstly, even if you were correct, why is that relevant to my point? I simply advised TOOR that he is wrong about the fact that the lines were manipulated to suit the officials when in fact they were actually just following a process that has been circulated around some media outlets.
Secondly, those photos look to me to show Sissoko's arm touching the ball... whether it touched his armpit as well is largely irrelevant in that case. If that is your best argument then I'm afraid you don't have one.
Finally, if you take your time and read my posts fully, you'll see I have agreed that the actual decision was ridiculous. But unlike TOOR, I don't share this absurd belief that it's part of a conspiracy by the officials - mainly because it isn't.
Hope this helps but do let me know if you'd like further clarification about why my reply to you wasn't immediate - I appreciate how upsetting that must be.