The Club Needs To Issue A Statement

comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 5 minutes ago
Hypothetically, yes, of course we all craved a trophy so when that was first mooted about whether you'd accept 17th and a trophy, everyone said hell yeah. But the reality isn't quite so straight forward. We now find ourselves in that strangest of positions. It's impossible to view this season as a resounding success, just as it's impossible to view it as abject failure. It can't be one or the other given where we stand having won a cup but also flirted with relegation. Those who choose to ignore the 17th place finish are blind to failure and are therefore more likely to repeat them. My worry is that Ange is one of them. He seems to care little about our league position but it can't be ignored. Some will say we had success precisely because we neglected the league but did we really need to do that? Tottenham? Newcastle won a cup, beating far more fierce opponents than us but maintained a CL league position. I'm not sure it's an excuse.

I don't envy Levy with this decision. He's damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. He's going to upset quite a few people of he does give him the chop, including the players but if he doesn't, he'll be accused of retaining faith in a poor manager.

The reality is that although this season we've won a cup, it's unsustainable for a club like ours to see long term success if we're going to ignore the league. The higher the finish, the more money comes in, the more we can invest to get better. It's not rocket science. Next year, the only way of qualifying for the CL is to finish in those positions (we're not going to win the cup) so there's no get out clause anymore. We have to be better in the league and I'm not sure Ange is the man to achieve that. by winning the cup, he's served the fans but Levy won't care about that. He's all about CL money so my guess is that he either goes now, which I think would be harsh, or he's given 10 games next year. If we don't hit the ground running, he's out.

The players might be upset but frankly, if you love him so much, play like you want to keep him because from where I'm sitting there's a disconnect between how much they say they love him, and how far they'll run for him. I'm not seeing them running through brick walls to win him the games to save his job.
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It's not only for the sake of the finances for how high we are to finish but don't we as fans want to see our club win most weeks? We finish mid-table or lower then we aren't doing that. This season was miserable as far as what we were served up. Loss after loss.

Personally I just want to see us challenge in the league and in the cups and hope we win something, which, despite winning the Europa this season, is no guarantee for Ange next season anyway. No more than another manager.

I'm actually wondering what Ange's approach would have been were we in genuine jeopardy of getting relegated towards the end? I mean there'd have been more chance Levy would have sacked Ange and brought in someone to try and get us safe, over winning the Europa. How would Ange have viewed it though...would he have risked relegation for the sake of still trying to win the Europa? He's lucky he had a free hit at it I guess.

comment by Bennyville (U8058)
posted 38 minutes ago
Would happily finish mid table for another cup.

So don’t mind if he stays.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Can't we aim for another cup and challenge further up the table? The fact that fans envisage this scenario already shouldn't fill you with confidence in Ange, that he's essentially a mid-table manager who may or may not win a trophy.

He won't even get the chance to be mid-table and win a cup though, as Levy will just sack him with that sort of form.

comment by Spurtle (U1608)
posted 1 hour, 28 minutes ago
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 5 minutes ago
Hypothetically, yes, of course we all craved a trophy so when that was first mooted about whether you'd accept 17th and a trophy, everyone said hell yeah. But the reality isn't quite so straight forward. We now find ourselves in that strangest of positions. It's impossible to view this season as a resounding success, just as it's impossible to view it as abject failure. It can't be one or the other given where we stand having won a cup but also flirted with relegation. Those who choose to ignore the 17th place finish are blind to failure and are therefore more likely to repeat them. My worry is that Ange is one of them. He seems to care little about our league position but it can't be ignored. Some will say we had success precisely because we neglected the league but did we really need to do that? Tottenham? Newcastle won a cup, beating far more fierce opponents than us but maintained a CL league position. I'm not sure it's an excuse.

I don't envy Levy with this decision. He's damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. He's going to upset quite a few people of he does give him the chop, including the players but if he doesn't, he'll be accused of retaining faith in a poor manager.

The reality is that although this season we've won a cup, it's unsustainable for a club like ours to see long term success if we're going to ignore the league. The higher the finish, the more money comes in, the more we can invest to get better. It's not rocket science. Next year, the only way of qualifying for the CL is to finish in those positions (we're not going to win the cup) so there's no get out clause anymore. We have to be better in the league and I'm not sure Ange is the man to achieve that. by winning the cup, he's served the fans but Levy won't care about that. He's all about CL money so my guess is that he either goes now, which I think would be harsh, or he's given 10 games next year. If we don't hit the ground running, he's out.

The players might be upset but frankly, if you love him so much, play like you want to keep him because from where I'm sitting there's a disconnect between how much they say they love him, and how far they'll run for him. I'm not seeing them running through brick walls to win him the games to save his job.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not only for the sake of the finances for how high we are to finish but don't we as fans want to see our club win most weeks? We finish mid-table or lower then we aren't doing that. This season was miserable as far as what we were served up. Loss after loss.

Personally I just want to see us challenge in the league and in the cups and hope we win something, which, despite winning the Europa this season, is no guarantee for Ange next season anyway. No more than another manager.

I'm actually wondering what Ange's approach would have been were we in genuine jeopardy of getting relegated towards the end? I mean there'd have been more chance Levy would have sacked Ange and brought in someone to try and get us safe, over winning the Europa. How would Ange have viewed it though...would he have risked relegation for the sake of still trying to win the Europa? He's lucky he had a free hit at it I guess.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
There was a point at which I think we were on 22 points and suddenly went on a 3 game winning streak, just at the point VDV came back. Without that, there's no way we'd have felt relaxed enough to ignore league form. Those points were really really vital in winning the Europa.

comment by Spurtle (U1608)
posted 1 hour, 32 minutes ago
comment by Bennyville (U8058)
posted 38 minutes ago
Would happily finish mid table for another cup.

So don’t mind if he stays.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Can't we aim for another cup and challenge further up the table? The fact that fans envisage this scenario already shouldn't fill you with confidence in Ange, that he's essentially a mid-table manager who may or may not win a trophy.

He won't even get the chance to be mid-table and win a cup though, as Levy will just sack him with that sort of form.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Absolutely no chance of that. The only cups we have a realistic chance of winning next year come with a Europa League place. There's no way Levy will settle for that. The CL, whether we like it or not, is the key to progress and all the time we don't have that, we're going to get out-punched by other teams. It's just a fact. We could win the League Cup next year and be no closer to Arsenal, City etc than now. That's why the league can't be ignored and why I still believe that Poch's Spurs were a far more successful outfit than this one. To me, success isn't measured by trophies alone but I know that opinion isn't shared by many on here, which is fair enough.

The bottom line is that the league is vital. We need to be in that chasing pack next year, competing with Newcastle and Villa for those CL places. It's so, so important. The way I see it, our chances of winning the cups are far greater if we have the financial fruits available having qualified for the CL. Better players means more trophies so qualifying for the CL should come before everything else. That's why I still understand Poch's logic of trying to build true success, not just this idea of a day out at Wembley and a on-off win.

comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 59 minutes ago
comment by Spurtle (U1608)
posted 1 hour, 28 minutes ago
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 5 minutes ago
Hypothetically, yes, of course we all craved a trophy so when that was first mooted about whether you'd accept 17th and a trophy, everyone said hell yeah. But the reality isn't quite so straight forward. We now find ourselves in that strangest of positions. It's impossible to view this season as a resounding success, just as it's impossible to view it as abject failure. It can't be one or the other given where we stand having won a cup but also flirted with relegation. Those who choose to ignore the 17th place finish are blind to failure and are therefore more likely to repeat them. My worry is that Ange is one of them. He seems to care little about our league position but it can't be ignored. Some will say we had success precisely because we neglected the league but did we really need to do that? Tottenham? Newcastle won a cup, beating far more fierce opponents than us but maintained a CL league position. I'm not sure it's an excuse.

I don't envy Levy with this decision. He's damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. He's going to upset quite a few people of he does give him the chop, including the players but if he doesn't, he'll be accused of retaining faith in a poor manager.

The reality is that although this season we've won a cup, it's unsustainable for a club like ours to see long term success if we're going to ignore the league. The higher the finish, the more money comes in, the more we can invest to get better. It's not rocket science. Next year, the only way of qualifying for the CL is to finish in those positions (we're not going to win the cup) so there's no get out clause anymore. We have to be better in the league and I'm not sure Ange is the man to achieve that. by winning the cup, he's served the fans but Levy won't care about that. He's all about CL money so my guess is that he either goes now, which I think would be harsh, or he's given 10 games next year. If we don't hit the ground running, he's out.

The players might be upset but frankly, if you love him so much, play like you want to keep him because from where I'm sitting there's a disconnect between how much they say they love him, and how far they'll run for him. I'm not seeing them running through brick walls to win him the games to save his job.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not only for the sake of the finances for how high we are to finish but don't we as fans want to see our club win most weeks? We finish mid-table or lower then we aren't doing that. This season was miserable as far as what we were served up. Loss after loss.

Personally I just want to see us challenge in the league and in the cups and hope we win something, which, despite winning the Europa this season, is no guarantee for Ange next season anyway. No more than another manager.

I'm actually wondering what Ange's approach would have been were we in genuine jeopardy of getting relegated towards the end? I mean there'd have been more chance Levy would have sacked Ange and brought in someone to try and get us safe, over winning the Europa. How would Ange have viewed it though...would he have risked relegation for the sake of still trying to win the Europa? He's lucky he had a free hit at it I guess.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
There was a point at which I think we were on 22 points and suddenly went on a 3 game winning streak, just at the point VDV came back. Without that, there's no way we'd have felt relaxed enough to ignore league form. Those points were really really vital in winning the Europa.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sure but the bottom 3 were terrible anyway so we didn't have to worry. I mean if say 1 or 2 of the bottom 3 had been a lot better and we wouldn't have been completely safe until close to the end. Would Ange have played it differently in the league to ensure safety?

comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 57 minutes ago
comment by Spurtle (U1608)
posted 1 hour, 32 minutes ago
comment by Bennyville (U8058)
posted 38 minutes ago
Would happily finish mid table for another cup.

So don’t mind if he stays.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Can't we aim for another cup and challenge further up the table? The fact that fans envisage this scenario already shouldn't fill you with confidence in Ange, that he's essentially a mid-table manager who may or may not win a trophy.

He won't even get the chance to be mid-table and win a cup though, as Levy will just sack him with that sort of form.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Absolutely no chance of that. The only cups we have a realistic chance of winning next year come with a Europa League place. There's no way Levy will settle for that. The CL, whether we like it or not, is the key to progress and all the time we don't have that, we're going to get out-punched by other teams. It's just a fact. We could win the League Cup next year and be no closer to Arsenal, City etc than now. That's why the league can't be ignored and why I still believe that Poch's Spurs were a far more successful outfit than this one. To me, success isn't measured by trophies alone but I know that opinion isn't shared by many on here, which is fair enough.

The bottom line is that the league is vital. We need to be in that chasing pack next year, competing with Newcastle and Villa for those CL places. It's so, so important. The way I see it, our chances of winning the cups are far greater if we have the financial fruits available having qualified for the CL. Better players means more trophies so qualifying for the CL should come before everything else. That's why I still understand Poch's logic of trying to build true success, not just this idea of a day out at Wembley and a on-off win.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
In the League and FA Cups we're bound to meet some good PL opposition. This is why people bring up the strength of the Europa this year. The teams in it weren't that strong. Newcastle beat Liverpool, Arsenal, Fulham and Chelsea on the way to winning the League Cup, it was a far trickier run than our Europa run. We did beat City and Liverpool on the way ourselves but we all saw what happened in the Liverpool away leg, and the Villa away leg in the FA Cup. This is why it still shouldn't be seen like Ange is a dead cert for more trophies and if it's at the expense of ditching the league because he can't handle both then it's admittance he isn't good enough for a big club.

If we're to win another cup with Ange it will probably involve another generous draw, unless he can somehow transform the tactics so that we are a much better team all round, which seems really unrealistic at this point to me.

After finishing 17th while getting the monkey off our back that is a trophy, the main aim should be improvement in the league now. We got the "I'd settle for 17th and a trophy" season that fans used as an extreme example of achieving any success. That can't be the norm. We need to try and get back to the levels of Poch and more.

comment by Spurtle (U1608)
posted 13 minutes ago
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 57 minutes ago
comment by Spurtle (U1608)
posted 1 hour, 32 minutes ago
comment by Bennyville (U8058)
posted 38 minutes ago
Would happily finish mid table for another cup.

So don’t mind if he stays.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Can't we aim for another cup and challenge further up the table? The fact that fans envisage this scenario already shouldn't fill you with confidence in Ange, that he's essentially a mid-table manager who may or may not win a trophy.

He won't even get the chance to be mid-table and win a cup though, as Levy will just sack him with that sort of form.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Absolutely no chance of that. The only cups we have a realistic chance of winning next year come with a Europa League place. There's no way Levy will settle for that. The CL, whether we like it or not, is the key to progress and all the time we don't have that, we're going to get out-punched by other teams. It's just a fact. We could win the League Cup next year and be no closer to Arsenal, City etc than now. That's why the league can't be ignored and why I still believe that Poch's Spurs were a far more successful outfit than this one. To me, success isn't measured by trophies alone but I know that opinion isn't shared by many on here, which is fair enough.

The bottom line is that the league is vital. We need to be in that chasing pack next year, competing with Newcastle and Villa for those CL places. It's so, so important. The way I see it, our chances of winning the cups are far greater if we have the financial fruits available having qualified for the CL. Better players means more trophies so qualifying for the CL should come before everything else. That's why I still understand Poch's logic of trying to build true success, not just this idea of a day out at Wembley and a on-off win.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
In the League and FA Cups we're bound to meet some good PL opposition. This is why people bring up the strength of the Europa this year. The teams in it weren't that strong. Newcastle beat Liverpool, Arsenal, Fulham and Chelsea on the way to winning the League Cup, it was a far trickier run than our Europa run. We did beat City and Liverpool on the way ourselves but we all saw what happened in the Liverpool away leg, and the Villa away leg in the FA Cup. This is why it still shouldn't be seen like Ange is a dead cert for more trophies and if it's at the expense of ditching the league because he can't handle both then it's admittance he isn't good enough for a big club.

If we're to win another cup with Ange it will probably involve another generous draw, unless he can somehow transform the tactics so that we are a much better team all round, which seems really unrealistic at this point to me.

After finishing 17th while getting the monkey off our back that is a trophy, the main aim should be improvement in the league now. We got the "I'd settle for 17th and a trophy" season that fans used as an extreme example of achieving any success. That can't be the norm. We need to try and get back to the levels of Poch and more.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

comment by Spurtle (U1608)
posted 12 hours, 48 minutes ago
comment by Automatic For The People (U21889)
posted 18 minutes ago
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 27 minutes ago
Why is everyone analysing the game as if we were lucky? The perception is that United were the better team but that's only because we'd taken the lead. You'd have seen far more adventure from us had we not had something to protect. The one-sided nature of the game was because they had something to chase, we had something to defend. We played them superbly in my opinion. In fact, playing that way totally surprised Bodo, as their coach testified, and clearly it outfoxed United too. It was deliberate, not a consequence of being torn apart.
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We weren’t lucky, and on the day we absolutely were the better team.

They were terrible!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well the goal was lucky, but we were the better team.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree.
But remember...the better team does not always win...
and we had our luck.
However, I will say this........if they had won it would have been very lucky too!.
Basically, it was not a good game of football...

comment by JustCallMeTed (U21528)
posted 6 hours, 33 minutes ago
comment by Spurtle (U1608)
posted 12 hours, 48 minutes ago
comment by Automatic For The People (U21889)
posted 18 minutes ago
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 27 minutes ago
Why is everyone analysing the game as if we were lucky? The perception is that United were the better team but that's only because we'd taken the lead. You'd have seen far more adventure from us had we not had something to protect. The one-sided nature of the game was because they had something to chase, we had something to defend. We played them superbly in my opinion. In fact, playing that way totally surprised Bodo, as their coach testified, and clearly it outfoxed United too. It was deliberate, not a consequence of being torn apart.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We weren’t lucky, and on the day we absolutely were the better team.

They were terrible!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well the goal was lucky, but we were the better team.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree.
But remember...the better team does not always win...
and we had our luck.
However, I will say this........if they had won it would have been very lucky too!.
Basically, it was not a good game of football...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It wasn't. It would be worth pointing out also that we were lacking in creativity due to injuries. Maybe that made Ange's mind up about how we'd play in the final.

Exactly. I'd like to see United play with their best three players out. Well maybe not best three but without question the only ones that can craft anything.

There's no point in analysing the game. The goal changed the approach by both teams. We became more cautious, United chased. That's the only reason it looked lop-sided in terms of chances.