comment by There'sOnlyOneReds (U1721)
posted 7 minutes ago
Have to agree with Fred here. Although I would expect to be paid the same, or more, if regardless of experience I was a better performer in the role. Certainly to start with I would expect to be paid less, if I was less experienced.
In fact over a year ago my manager was given the boot and I was promoted into his position but paid 10k less. I'm now a year in and despite being less experienced than he was(he's 20 years older than I am) I'm performing better than he was. They gave me a 2k payrise. That isn't cutting it so I'm looking at alternatives. I had no problem with being paid less due to experience but having now performed better than he was for over a year, I expect to be at least paid the same as he was.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's fair enough, you've worked hard to earn that pay. People who get put into a role and think they're entitled to be paid as much as somebody that's been doing it for years is wrong.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Men in concern that woman gets paid the same shocker!
comment by Robbing_Hoody - as a rule I don't trust a man who doesn't drink but I do trust James Milner (U6374)
posted 24 seconds ago
Men in concern that woman gets paid the same shocker!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Far too simplistic view of the situation, and exactly the problem with our society.
comment by Allison Chains (U3979)
posted 15 seconds ago
comment by Robbing_Hoody - as a rule I don't trust a man who doesn't drink but I do trust James Milner (U6374)
posted 24 seconds ago
Men in concern that woman gets paid the same shocker!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Far too simplistic view of the situation, and exactly the problem with our society.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Its not exactly the problem woth our society at all. I can think of loads of bigger problems.
She's either got the skills or not. Clearly has though as she was offered the role. On £12k.
It's seemingly ALWAYS white middke class men who think it's fair too
Bearly always also think the Rooney rule is wrong too.
How did she apply for a job from the kitchen though...that the real question we should be asking.
comment by Robbing_Hoody - as a rule I don't trust a man who doesn't drink but I do trust James Milner (U6374)
posted 25 seconds ago
comment by Allison Chains (U3979)
posted 15 seconds ago
comment by Robbing_Hoody - as a rule I don't trust a man who doesn't drink but I do trust James Milner (U6374)
posted 24 seconds ago
Men in concern that woman gets paid the same shocker!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Far too simplistic view of the situation, and exactly the problem with our society.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Its not exactly the problem woth our society at all. I can think of loads of bigger problems.
She's either got the skills or not. Clearly has though as she was offered the role. On £12k.
It's seemingly ALWAYS white middke class men who think it's fair too
Bearly always also think the Rooney rule is wrong too.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So you're saying if we sign two central midfielders, they should be on exactly the same wage? They've got the same skill set if they've been hired for the same role, right?
TOOR, I think that’s common with a lot of companies - opening positions are defendable but companies are slow to recognise and reward good performance.
The only thing I’d say is that sometimes (not saying it’s the case with you) people end up benchmarking themselves to people who were overpaid in the first place. For example, if your old boss had go to over market rate through sitting tight for X years then arguably benchmarking to that salary isn’t realistic. Again, not saying it’s the case with you but I’ve seen it plenty of times - people expect a high salary due to an anomaly. Doing that just artificially increases the baseline costs of a role because everyone will expect to get moved to that new high mark. I’ve had some difficult conversations with people about exactly that.
comment by Naby8 (U6997)
posted less than a minute ago
TOOR, I think that’s common with a lot of companies - opening positions are defendable but companies are slow to recognise and reward good performance.
The only thing I’d say is that sometimes (not saying it’s the case with you) people end up benchmarking themselves to people who were overpaid in the first place. For example, if your old boss had go to over market rate through sitting tight for X years then arguably benchmarking to that salary isn’t realistic. Again, not saying it’s the case with you but I’ve seen it plenty of times - people expect a high salary due to an anomaly. Doing that just artificially increases the baseline costs of a role because everyone will expect to get moved to that new high mark. I’ve had some difficult conversations with people about exactly that.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
A very fair comment.
comment by Allison Chains (U3979)
posted 23 seconds ago
comment by Robbing_Hoody - as a rule I don't trust a man who doesn't drink but I do trust James Milner (U6374)
posted 25 seconds ago
comment by Allison Chains (U3979)
posted 15 seconds ago
comment by Robbing_Hoody - as a rule I don't trust a man who doesn't drink but I do trust James Milner (U6374)
posted 24 seconds ago
Men in concern that woman gets paid the same shocker!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Far too simplistic view of the situation, and exactly the problem with our society.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Its not exactly the problem woth our society at all. I can think of loads of bigger problems.
She's either got the skills or not. Clearly has though as she was offered the role. On £12k.
It's seemingly ALWAYS white middke class men who think it's fair too
Bearly always also think the Rooney rule is wrong too.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So you're saying if we sign two central midfielders, they should be on exactly the same wage? They've got the same skill set if they've been hired for the same role, right?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No that's not what Im saying. Football does not work with recognised salary bandings for a start and then you could add things like the skill set cannot be measured on a metric.
She has the skills to do the job (clearly as she was offeted it) and was presented with £12k less. Thats it. Simple as that.
Now it could be fluke or it could be yet another example of inequality.
As a right wing white middle class man I understand your stance, however.
comment by Allison Chains (U3979)
posted 20 seconds ago
comment by Robbing_Hoody - as a rule I don't trust a man who doesn't drink but I do trust James Milner (U6374)
posted 25 seconds ago
comment by Allison Chains (U3979)
posted 15 seconds ago
comment by Robbing_Hoody - as a rule I don't trust a man who doesn't drink but I do trust James Milner (U6374)
posted 24 seconds ago
Men in concern that woman gets paid the same shocker!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Far too simplistic view of the situation, and exactly the problem with our society.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Its not exactly the problem woth our society at all. I can think of loads of bigger problems.
She's either got the skills or not. Clearly has though as she was offered the role. On £12k.
It's seemingly ALWAYS white middke class men who think it's fair too
Bearly always also think the Rooney rule is wrong too.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So you're saying if we sign two central midfielders, they should be on exactly the same wage? They've got the same skill set if they've been hired for the same role, right?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not sure football, or any form of elite level sport/entertainment, are good forms of comparison tbh.
comment by Robbing_Hoody - as a rule I don't trust a man who doesn't drink but I do trust James Milner (U6374)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Allison Chains (U3979)
posted 23 seconds ago
comment by Robbing_Hoody - as a rule I don't trust a man who doesn't drink but I do trust James Milner (U6374)
posted 25 seconds ago
comment by Allison Chains (U3979)
posted 15 seconds ago
comment by Robbing_Hoody - as a rule I don't trust a man who doesn't drink but I do trust James Milner (U6374)
posted 24 seconds ago
Men in concern that woman gets paid the same shocker!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Far too simplistic view of the situation, and exactly the problem with our society.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Its not exactly the problem woth our society at all. I can think of loads of bigger problems.
She's either got the skills or not. Clearly has though as she was offered the role. On £12k.
It's seemingly ALWAYS white middke class men who think it's fair too
Bearly always also think the Rooney rule is wrong too.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So you're saying if we sign two central midfielders, they should be on exactly the same wage? They've got the same skill set if they've been hired for the same role, right?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No that's not what Im saying. Football does not work with recognised salary bandings for a start and then you could add things like the skill set cannot be measured on a metric.
She has the skills to do the job (clearly as she was offeted it) and was presented with £12k less. Thats it. Simple as that.
Now it could be fluke or it could be yet another example of inequality.
As a right wing white middle class man I understand your stance, however.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Literally no point discussing anything with your premeditated opinions of everything anybody says.
You don't listen to what's being said, just who is saying it. Completely wrong in my opinion but you'll never change.
oh lord, what have i done
Yeah probably. But Im not a right wing misogynist.
Swings and roundabouts innit.
How have you come to that conclusion about him?
Just saying Im not.
I do think he's right wing though (tory-lite at least) and as said it's ALWAYS white men who get up in arms about equality being put into action. This is about a woman. Ergo misogyny.
Its about whether people should be paid the exact same regardless of experience, some people like yourself appear to have jumped to the conclusion that its because shes a woman, myself i thought it was based on experience that she was offered less.
As an extremely experienced recruitment consultant Im off the opinion it's about skills not experience, hence my stance.
I also find the view that it's not about being female a bit naive.
Same with the rooney rule when there is loads of data to suggest that discrimination is alive and well.
comment by Robbing_Hoody - as a rule I don't trust a man who doesn't drink but I do trust James Milner (U6374)
posted 19 minutes ago
Just saying Im not.
I do think he's right wing though (tory-lite at least) and as said it's ALWAYS white men who get up in arms about equality being put into action. This is about a woman. Ergo misogyny.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
White men aren't allowed an opinion on this matter then? Or just one that agrees with you?
I'll ignore the daft right wing comments or whatever tory-lite means.
Not every consultant will think the same as you, some will look at experience no?
Maybe it is naive, but i just dont assume every situation where someone doesn't get exactly the same as someone else is because they are being purposefully discriminated against.
I wasn't offended when i got offered a wage around 8% lower than my colleagues when i started the job im in currently, its quickly risen to the same level as i became more efficient at my job.
Yeah theres discrimination about, in this case i dont think it was, you do, guess thats all there is to it.
comment by Adam 'The interview' Lallana (U20650)
posted 17 seconds ago
Not every consultant will think the same as you, some will look at experience no?
Maybe it is naive, but i just dont assume every situation where someone doesn't get exactly the same as someone else is because they are being purposefully discriminated against.
I wasn't offended when i got offered a wage around 8% lower than my colleagues when i started the job im in currently, its quickly risen to the same level as i became more efficient at my job.
Yeah theres discrimination about, in this case i dont think it was, you do, guess thats all there is to it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yep, pretty much how I feel.
But I'm a right wing misogynist according to some bloke on the internet claiming to be 'very experienced recruiter' so I'm not entitled to an opinion.
comment by Naby8 (U6997)
posted 41 minutes ago
TOOR, I think that’s common with a lot of companies - opening positions are defendable but companies are slow to recognise and reward good performance.
The only thing I’d say is that sometimes (not saying it’s the case with you) people end up benchmarking themselves to people who were overpaid in the first place. For example, if your old boss had go to over market rate through sitting tight for X years then arguably benchmarking to that salary isn’t realistic. Again, not saying it’s the case with you but I’ve seen it plenty of times - people expect a high salary due to an anomaly. Doing that just artificially increases the baseline costs of a role because everyone will expect to get moved to that new high mark. I’ve had some difficult conversations with people about exactly that.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah, definitely not the case, I started in the company before him, just over five years ago. He never had a payrise, after his initial six month probation. I did most of his work, he took the credit, this was eventually recognised and I was put into his position, n 10k less.
Maybe it is naive, but i just dont assume every situation where someone doesn't get exactly the same as someone else is because they are being purposefully discriminated against.
===============
When it's the same role within a company with recognised salary bandings that has demonstrably shown to pay men more than women for the same job I cant really see how there is another comclusion that is likely tbh.
I'm sure I'm not alone in being someone who regularly recruits into an organisation but for me it's not skills based or experienced based in isolation, for me it's about expected performance in role.
I've started 2 people in the same role at different salaries before and I'd do it again despite believing both to have the skills necessary to do the job. The reason is because one of the candidates had demonstrable experience of doing a very similar role so I had a greater level of assurance they would hit or exceed expectations immediately.
As I said in my previous post, the key for me is recognising that and when the other person demonstrates that they're working to the same level then the inequality is addressed - that's the step that many companies fail to take.
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LFC Tranny Thread
Page 3692 of 7831
3693 | 3694 | 3695 | 3696 | 3697
posted on 23/5/19
comment by There'sOnlyOneReds (U1721)
posted 7 minutes ago
Have to agree with Fred here. Although I would expect to be paid the same, or more, if regardless of experience I was a better performer in the role. Certainly to start with I would expect to be paid less, if I was less experienced.
In fact over a year ago my manager was given the boot and I was promoted into his position but paid 10k less. I'm now a year in and despite being less experienced than he was(he's 20 years older than I am) I'm performing better than he was. They gave me a 2k payrise. That isn't cutting it so I'm looking at alternatives. I had no problem with being paid less due to experience but having now performed better than he was for over a year, I expect to be at least paid the same as he was.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's fair enough, you've worked hard to earn that pay. People who get put into a role and think they're entitled to be paid as much as somebody that's been doing it for years is wrong.
posted on 23/5/19
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 23/5/19
Men in concern that woman gets paid the same shocker!
posted on 23/5/19
comment by Robbing_Hoody - as a rule I don't trust a man who doesn't drink but I do trust James Milner (U6374)
posted 24 seconds ago
Men in concern that woman gets paid the same shocker!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Far too simplistic view of the situation, and exactly the problem with our society.
posted on 23/5/19
comment by Allison Chains (U3979)
posted 15 seconds ago
comment by Robbing_Hoody - as a rule I don't trust a man who doesn't drink but I do trust James Milner (U6374)
posted 24 seconds ago
Men in concern that woman gets paid the same shocker!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Far too simplistic view of the situation, and exactly the problem with our society.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Its not exactly the problem woth our society at all. I can think of loads of bigger problems.
She's either got the skills or not. Clearly has though as she was offered the role. On £12k.
It's seemingly ALWAYS white middke class men who think it's fair too
Bearly always also think the Rooney rule is wrong too.
posted on 23/5/19
£12k less*
posted on 23/5/19
How did she apply for a job from the kitchen though...that the real question we should be asking.
posted on 23/5/19
comment by Robbing_Hoody - as a rule I don't trust a man who doesn't drink but I do trust James Milner (U6374)
posted 25 seconds ago
comment by Allison Chains (U3979)
posted 15 seconds ago
comment by Robbing_Hoody - as a rule I don't trust a man who doesn't drink but I do trust James Milner (U6374)
posted 24 seconds ago
Men in concern that woman gets paid the same shocker!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Far too simplistic view of the situation, and exactly the problem with our society.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Its not exactly the problem woth our society at all. I can think of loads of bigger problems.
She's either got the skills or not. Clearly has though as she was offered the role. On £12k.
It's seemingly ALWAYS white middke class men who think it's fair too
Bearly always also think the Rooney rule is wrong too.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So you're saying if we sign two central midfielders, they should be on exactly the same wage? They've got the same skill set if they've been hired for the same role, right?
posted on 23/5/19
TOOR, I think that’s common with a lot of companies - opening positions are defendable but companies are slow to recognise and reward good performance.
The only thing I’d say is that sometimes (not saying it’s the case with you) people end up benchmarking themselves to people who were overpaid in the first place. For example, if your old boss had go to over market rate through sitting tight for X years then arguably benchmarking to that salary isn’t realistic. Again, not saying it’s the case with you but I’ve seen it plenty of times - people expect a high salary due to an anomaly. Doing that just artificially increases the baseline costs of a role because everyone will expect to get moved to that new high mark. I’ve had some difficult conversations with people about exactly that.
posted on 23/5/19
comment by Naby8 (U6997)
posted less than a minute ago
TOOR, I think that’s common with a lot of companies - opening positions are defendable but companies are slow to recognise and reward good performance.
The only thing I’d say is that sometimes (not saying it’s the case with you) people end up benchmarking themselves to people who were overpaid in the first place. For example, if your old boss had go to over market rate through sitting tight for X years then arguably benchmarking to that salary isn’t realistic. Again, not saying it’s the case with you but I’ve seen it plenty of times - people expect a high salary due to an anomaly. Doing that just artificially increases the baseline costs of a role because everyone will expect to get moved to that new high mark. I’ve had some difficult conversations with people about exactly that.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
A very fair comment.
posted on 23/5/19
comment by Allison Chains (U3979)
posted 23 seconds ago
comment by Robbing_Hoody - as a rule I don't trust a man who doesn't drink but I do trust James Milner (U6374)
posted 25 seconds ago
comment by Allison Chains (U3979)
posted 15 seconds ago
comment by Robbing_Hoody - as a rule I don't trust a man who doesn't drink but I do trust James Milner (U6374)
posted 24 seconds ago
Men in concern that woman gets paid the same shocker!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Far too simplistic view of the situation, and exactly the problem with our society.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Its not exactly the problem woth our society at all. I can think of loads of bigger problems.
She's either got the skills or not. Clearly has though as she was offered the role. On £12k.
It's seemingly ALWAYS white middke class men who think it's fair too
Bearly always also think the Rooney rule is wrong too.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So you're saying if we sign two central midfielders, they should be on exactly the same wage? They've got the same skill set if they've been hired for the same role, right?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No that's not what Im saying. Football does not work with recognised salary bandings for a start and then you could add things like the skill set cannot be measured on a metric.
She has the skills to do the job (clearly as she was offeted it) and was presented with £12k less. Thats it. Simple as that.
Now it could be fluke or it could be yet another example of inequality.
As a right wing white middle class man I understand your stance, however.
posted on 23/5/19
comment by Allison Chains (U3979)
posted 20 seconds ago
comment by Robbing_Hoody - as a rule I don't trust a man who doesn't drink but I do trust James Milner (U6374)
posted 25 seconds ago
comment by Allison Chains (U3979)
posted 15 seconds ago
comment by Robbing_Hoody - as a rule I don't trust a man who doesn't drink but I do trust James Milner (U6374)
posted 24 seconds ago
Men in concern that woman gets paid the same shocker!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Far too simplistic view of the situation, and exactly the problem with our society.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Its not exactly the problem woth our society at all. I can think of loads of bigger problems.
She's either got the skills or not. Clearly has though as she was offered the role. On £12k.
It's seemingly ALWAYS white middke class men who think it's fair too
Bearly always also think the Rooney rule is wrong too.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So you're saying if we sign two central midfielders, they should be on exactly the same wage? They've got the same skill set if they've been hired for the same role, right?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not sure football, or any form of elite level sport/entertainment, are good forms of comparison tbh.
posted on 23/5/19
comment by Robbing_Hoody - as a rule I don't trust a man who doesn't drink but I do trust James Milner (U6374)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Allison Chains (U3979)
posted 23 seconds ago
comment by Robbing_Hoody - as a rule I don't trust a man who doesn't drink but I do trust James Milner (U6374)
posted 25 seconds ago
comment by Allison Chains (U3979)
posted 15 seconds ago
comment by Robbing_Hoody - as a rule I don't trust a man who doesn't drink but I do trust James Milner (U6374)
posted 24 seconds ago
Men in concern that woman gets paid the same shocker!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Far too simplistic view of the situation, and exactly the problem with our society.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Its not exactly the problem woth our society at all. I can think of loads of bigger problems.
She's either got the skills or not. Clearly has though as she was offered the role. On £12k.
It's seemingly ALWAYS white middke class men who think it's fair too
Bearly always also think the Rooney rule is wrong too.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So you're saying if we sign two central midfielders, they should be on exactly the same wage? They've got the same skill set if they've been hired for the same role, right?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No that's not what Im saying. Football does not work with recognised salary bandings for a start and then you could add things like the skill set cannot be measured on a metric.
She has the skills to do the job (clearly as she was offeted it) and was presented with £12k less. Thats it. Simple as that.
Now it could be fluke or it could be yet another example of inequality.
As a right wing white middle class man I understand your stance, however.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Literally no point discussing anything with your premeditated opinions of everything anybody says.
You don't listen to what's being said, just who is saying it. Completely wrong in my opinion but you'll never change.
posted on 23/5/19
oh lord, what have i done
posted on 23/5/19
Yeah probably. But Im not a right wing misogynist.
Swings and roundabouts innit.
posted on 23/5/19
How have you come to that conclusion about him?
posted on 23/5/19
Just saying Im not.
I do think he's right wing though (tory-lite at least) and as said it's ALWAYS white men who get up in arms about equality being put into action. This is about a woman. Ergo misogyny.
posted on 23/5/19
Its about whether people should be paid the exact same regardless of experience, some people like yourself appear to have jumped to the conclusion that its because shes a woman, myself i thought it was based on experience that she was offered less.
posted on 23/5/19
As an extremely experienced recruitment consultant Im off the opinion it's about skills not experience, hence my stance.
I also find the view that it's not about being female a bit naive.
Same with the rooney rule when there is loads of data to suggest that discrimination is alive and well.
posted on 23/5/19
comment by Robbing_Hoody - as a rule I don't trust a man who doesn't drink but I do trust James Milner (U6374)
posted 19 minutes ago
Just saying Im not.
I do think he's right wing though (tory-lite at least) and as said it's ALWAYS white men who get up in arms about equality being put into action. This is about a woman. Ergo misogyny.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
White men aren't allowed an opinion on this matter then? Or just one that agrees with you?
I'll ignore the daft right wing comments or whatever tory-lite means.
posted on 23/5/19
Not every consultant will think the same as you, some will look at experience no?
Maybe it is naive, but i just dont assume every situation where someone doesn't get exactly the same as someone else is because they are being purposefully discriminated against.
I wasn't offended when i got offered a wage around 8% lower than my colleagues when i started the job im in currently, its quickly risen to the same level as i became more efficient at my job.
Yeah theres discrimination about, in this case i dont think it was, you do, guess thats all there is to it.
posted on 23/5/19
comment by Adam 'The interview' Lallana (U20650)
posted 17 seconds ago
Not every consultant will think the same as you, some will look at experience no?
Maybe it is naive, but i just dont assume every situation where someone doesn't get exactly the same as someone else is because they are being purposefully discriminated against.
I wasn't offended when i got offered a wage around 8% lower than my colleagues when i started the job im in currently, its quickly risen to the same level as i became more efficient at my job.
Yeah theres discrimination about, in this case i dont think it was, you do, guess thats all there is to it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yep, pretty much how I feel.
But I'm a right wing misogynist according to some bloke on the internet claiming to be 'very experienced recruiter' so I'm not entitled to an opinion.
posted on 23/5/19
comment by Naby8 (U6997)
posted 41 minutes ago
TOOR, I think that’s common with a lot of companies - opening positions are defendable but companies are slow to recognise and reward good performance.
The only thing I’d say is that sometimes (not saying it’s the case with you) people end up benchmarking themselves to people who were overpaid in the first place. For example, if your old boss had go to over market rate through sitting tight for X years then arguably benchmarking to that salary isn’t realistic. Again, not saying it’s the case with you but I’ve seen it plenty of times - people expect a high salary due to an anomaly. Doing that just artificially increases the baseline costs of a role because everyone will expect to get moved to that new high mark. I’ve had some difficult conversations with people about exactly that.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah, definitely not the case, I started in the company before him, just over five years ago. He never had a payrise, after his initial six month probation. I did most of his work, he took the credit, this was eventually recognised and I was put into his position, n 10k less.
posted on 23/5/19
Maybe it is naive, but i just dont assume every situation where someone doesn't get exactly the same as someone else is because they are being purposefully discriminated against.
===============
When it's the same role within a company with recognised salary bandings that has demonstrably shown to pay men more than women for the same job I cant really see how there is another comclusion that is likely tbh.
posted on 23/5/19
I'm sure I'm not alone in being someone who regularly recruits into an organisation but for me it's not skills based or experienced based in isolation, for me it's about expected performance in role.
I've started 2 people in the same role at different salaries before and I'd do it again despite believing both to have the skills necessary to do the job. The reason is because one of the candidates had demonstrable experience of doing a very similar role so I had a greater level of assurance they would hit or exceed expectations immediately.
As I said in my previous post, the key for me is recognising that and when the other person demonstrates that they're working to the same level then the inequality is addressed - that's the step that many companies fail to take.
Page 3692 of 7831
3693 | 3694 | 3695 | 3696 | 3697