When you taking it up again? Or you seriously becoming a doctor?
Good to see civil chat here boys, on a day when another extremist brings death and misery to innocent people.
My father died seven years ago today from cancer, and if killers could see hospitals, hospices and realise how fleeting life can be, perhaps they would step back, and appreciate precious life....rather than take it, or throw theirs away.
Peace
Sorry to hear that, tbab. RIP your old man.
And yes, on days like these, more than ever, peace.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
comment by Arthur Johnson (U6426)
posted 1 minute ago
Sorry to hear that, tbab. RIP your old man.
And yes, on days like these, more than ever, peace.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I lived in the Brixton, Hounslow and Heathrow areas and it was fairly chilled and friendly, even though a little culture shock from greater Belfast.
I have seen and been in the middle of trouble in Belfast, Glasgow and London, but nowadays what happens in London makes me feel safecand secure in Belfast, weirdly!
After a minutes silence for the tower fire, and talking about the attack on Muslims today, colleagues agreed we were now lucky in central Belfast, as this was our third minutes silence for tragedy and terror in three weeks in England.
Changed times, but we do not wish it on anyone.
Thanks for your K and words about my da, Arthur😢
When you taking it up again? Or you seriously becoming a doctor?
-------------
Tbh I no longer have the software or time to restart it, shame as I did actually enjoy the process. Becoming a doctor went off the menu a long time ago! I've re-specialised as an engineer now
comment by Zachsda(We found a money tree) (U1850)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by thebluebellsareblue (U9292)
posted 10 minutes ago
Good to see civil chat here boys, on a day when another extremist brings death and misery to innocent people.
My father died seven years ago today from cancer, and if killers could see hospitals, hospices and realise how fleeting life can be, perhaps they would step back, and appreciate precious life....rather than take it, or throw theirs away.
Peace
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sadly they wouldn't they'd find a cause that justifies them
There are some noble causes to die for
Recent events were none of them
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Zach
I fear you are correct.
Having met and studied the far right and some extreme loyalists, the guys involved are often not the popular kids at school, or the good looking, or the smart folk.
Often lost souls,,looking for a reason to get up with n the morning,,so they latch on to a white facist cause.
Same applies to Muslim extremist guys,,if you check how many were small time criminals, thieves, drug abuser etc, until they find a preacher or computer to brainwash small minds.
Hooligans in fitba fit this stereotype too,,of not that bright and seeking to belong.
Problem with this today is murder, rather than just hateful thoughts, as life becomes cheap.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Good post tbab.
renoog - not planning to stay in college forever then? You done now?
Yeah I graduated a few years ago. Having doubts over engineering as a long-term career though, looking to get into something more cutting-edge.
It's amazing, Muslims and Non Muslims have spent years telling other people that the attacks against civilians in the west are a result of extremists exacting revenge on us using twisted rationalisations.
= Terrorist Sympathiser
People are now calling the Mosque terrorist attack a revenge attack because other people mowed down non Muslims on London Bridge.
= Legit
Amazing!
comment by Kung Fu Cantona 🇵🇸 JeSuisPalestinian 🇵🇸 (U18082)
posted 2 hours, 40 minutes ago
It's amazing, Muslims and Non Muslims have spent years telling other people that the attacks against civilians in the west are a result of extremists exacting revenge on us using twisted rationalisations.
= Terrorist Sympathiser
People are now calling the Mosque terrorist attack a revenge attack because other people mowed down non Muslims on London Bridge.
= Legit
Amazing!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
KFC
I do not think, "people" are saying the attack by the Cardiff van man was legit, in any form.
I have seen Muslim folk on saying they expected this as attacks on much smaller scales were happening already.
Those beating up Jews, blacks or Asians from the 1930 's to today do not need Islamist extremist attacks for an excuse.
Extremists on whatever side do not excuses.
We should give them any legitimacy.
I didn't say others were saying it's a legitimate attack, I'm saying that calling something out as a revenge attack is now legitimate to do.
You said you have heard Muslim folk saying they expected this attack, yes I was one of them.
If thats a reason for being able to call it revenge, then their are plenty of non Muslims on this thread who will tell you terror against non Muslim has a connection to foreign policy.
Scratch that, actual scientific data proves it, if that's what you rely on instead of your own eyes and ears when these things happen.
If somebody were to say that the murder of Lee Rigby was a revenge attack, WHICH IT WAS people will then call that person a terrorist sympathiser. Clear double standards.
I can separate my self from the emotion and acknowledge that the mosque terror attack was probably revenge in response to the London Bridge terror attack.
I can also separate my self from the emotion of the London Bridge terror attack to acknowledge that it was probably an act of revenge in response to Muslims dying else where.
That doesn't absolve either of the attackers of their vile crimes, all it is, is pointing out a motivating factor.
Pointing out the factors which motivate these people doesn't rationalise or legitimise their actions, but it's a way out of this mess.
The sooner we start recognising why deranged individuals do these things the sooner they will stop happening and as long as the person saying these things acknowledges that the civilians killed in these atrocities are innocent in all of this, then there is no danger in it.
comment by Kung Fu Cantona 🇵🇸 JeSuisPalestinian 🇵🇸 (U18082)
posted 15 minutes ago
I didn't say others were saying it's a legitimate attack, I'm saying that calling something out as a revenge attack is now legitimate to do.
You said you have heard Muslim folk saying they expected this attack, yes I was one of them.
If thats a reason for being able to call it revenge, then their are plenty of non Muslims on this thread who will tell you terror against non Muslim has a connection to foreign policy.
Scratch that, actual scientific data proves it, if that's what you rely on instead of your own eyes and ears when these things happen.
If somebody were to say that the murder of Lee Rigby was a revenge attack, WHICH IT WAS people will then call that person a terrorist sympathiser. Clear double standards.
I can separate my self from the emotion and acknowledge that the mosque terror attack was probably revenge in response to the London Bridge terror attack.
I can also separate my self from the emotion of the London Bridge terror attack to acknowledge that it was probably an act of revenge in response to Muslims dying else where.
That doesn't absolve either of the attackers of their vile crimes, all it is, is pointing out a motivating factor.
Pointing out the factors which motivate these people doesn't rationalise or legitimise their actions, but it's a way out of this mess.
The sooner we start recognising why deranged individuals do these things the sooner they will stop happening and as long as the person saying these things acknowledges that the civilians killed in these atrocities are innocent in all of this, then there is no danger in it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Fair points bud.
Problem is, the so called far right and political right are growing now, from Russia, through central and western Europe, the uk and into the USA.
They see the Lee rigby, Manchester and London bridge attacks in exactly the same way some Muslims sees suffering among his faith group or country....not all of course, as many Muslim people are in the army, or do not view war in Iraq,or Syria or Libya as their fight.
I think both of you are right, though I'd add that your points address only one dimension of the problem - revenge for violence perpetrated against others.
I think here, we need to realise 2 very important things:
1. Due to the potential economic repercussions of industrialised nations losing control of their main energy resources, pulling troops out of Muslim nations in the Middle East and elsewhere isn't going to happen, no matter what, until we no longer depend on fossil fuels as a major energy supply.
Even though the bomb-laden morons flinging themselves against civilians might not realise that, the people pulling the strings are definitely aware.
2. While insisting that the above is impossible, even if they did pull out it would not solve the issue. The stated objective of ISIS and AL-Qaeda is to establish a caliphate stretching way beyond the current geographical limits of Muslim majorities.
So...
While acknowledging that violence, corruption and autocracy in the M.E. -for which industrialised nations are also partly but by no means entirely responsible- are a big part of the problem, we need also to address equally huge issues much closer to home:
A large majority of these suicide attacks are being perpetrated by people born in the West, and who very often haven't even followed a very Islamic path prior to being radicalised. A lot of them have been involved in petty and sometime more serious crime, some have been pushers, even pimps.
It isn't a common denominator, because you've also had college graduates from affluent backgrounds, but what's painfully obvious is that there are not just political but also social factors at work here.
There's huge work to be done in our home societies apart from police and secret services efforts to prevent radicalisation and the more immediate terrorist threat. Given the number of years now that terrorism has been on the rise, I find it totally shocking that we haven't heard a lot more from any of our governments as regards identifying the root causes of alienation in our own societies or laying out what would undoubtably need to be long-term plans to address this issue.
This is something we should ALL be demanding from our governments. Other than the immediate action against actual terrorists of whatever persuasion and their aiders and abetters, this is ought to be imo the primary area of concern.
comment by Arthur Johnson (U6426)
posted 11 hours, 21 minutes ago
I think both of you are right, though I'd add that your points address only one dimension of the problem - revenge for violence perpetrated against others.
I think here, we need to realise 2 very important things:
1. Due to the potential economic repercussions of industrialised nations losing control of their main energy resources, pulling troops out of Muslim nations in the Middle East and elsewhere isn't going to happen, no matter what, until we no longer depend on fossil fuels as a major energy supply.
Even though the bomb-laden morons flinging themselves against civilians might not realise that, the people pulling the strings are definitely aware.
2. While insisting that the above is impossible, even if they did pull out it would not solve the issue. The stated objective of ISIS and AL-Qaeda is to establish a caliphate stretching way beyond the current geographical limits of Muslim majorities.
So...
While acknowledging that violence, corruption and autocracy in the M.E. -for which industrialised nations are also partly but by no means entirely responsible- are a big part of the problem, we need also to address equally huge issues much closer to home:
A large majority of these suicide attacks are being perpetrated by people born in the West, and who very often haven't even followed a very Islamic path prior to being radicalised. A lot of them have been involved in petty and sometime more serious crime, some have been pushers, even pimps.
It isn't a common denominator, because you've also had college graduates from affluent backgrounds, but what's painfully obvious is that there are not just political but also social factors at work here.
There's huge work to be done in our home societies apart from police and secret services efforts to prevent radicalisation and the more immediate terrorist threat. Given the number of years now that terrorism has been on the rise, I find it totally shocking that we haven't heard a lot more from any of our governments as regards identifying the root causes of alienation in our own societies or laying out what would undoubtably need to be long-term plans to address this issue.
This is something we should ALL be demanding from our governments. Other than the immediate action against actual terrorists of whatever persuasion and their aiders and abetters, this is ought to be imo the primary area of concern.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Excellent post, sir.
There is more sense written on this sports forum, than that spoken in parliament.....or in political programmes.
Arthur
I agree with a lot of that but you are a little off in my opinion.
Some idiot, i can't remember who, accused me of supporting Bin Laden when I last used these quotes last, I trust you won't.
Both Al Qaeda and Daesh have aims, Bin Ladens were a little more obvious though.
First his irrational excuse for killing innocent civilians.
“They [the Muslim scholars] say that the killing of innocents is wrong and invalid, and for proof, they say that the Prophet forbade the killing of children and women, and that is true. It is valid and has been laid down by the Prophet in an authentic tradition…but this forbidding of killing children and innocents is not set in stone…if the disbelievers were to kill our children and women, then we should not feel ashamed to do the same to them, mainly to deter them from trying to kill our children and women again”
Osama Bin Laden – October 21, 2001, al-Jazeera interview quoted in ‘Messages to the World: The Statements of Osama Bin Laden’ by Bruce Lawrence
May I add he actually acknowledges in that paragraph it's forbidden to kill civilians but he condones it because it mirrors how civilians are casually killed in the Middle East.
“Free people do not relinquish their security. This is contrary to Bush’s claim that we hate freedom. Let him tell us why we did not strike Sweden for example…your security is in your own hands. Each and every state that does not tamper with our security will have automatically assured its own security”
Osama Bin Laden (Videotape broadcast on al-Jazeera TV as reported in a BBC article 29 October 2004)
So he refutes the line people use about terrorists wanting to kill us because they hate our freedom and says if the ME is secure then so are we.
“The American people should remember that they pay taxes to their government and that they voted for their president. Their government makes weapons and provides them to Israel, which they use to kill Palestinian Muslims. Given that the American Congress is a committee that represents the people, the fact that it agrees with the actions of the American government proves that America in its entirety is responsible for the atrocities that is is committing against Muslims. I demand the American people to take note of their government’s policy against Muslims. They described the government’s policy against Vietnam as wrong. They should now take the same stand that they did previously. The onus is on Americans to prevent Muslims from being killed at the hands of their government”.
Osama Bin Laden (Interview with Pakistani Daily Newspapers, Ausaf, 7th November 2001, and Al-Quds al Arabi, 12th November 2001)
Here he places responsibility on the citizens because we live in a democracy and we have the power to choose who commands our laws and by extension our foreign policy.
These are the reason why he irrationally and in an unIslamic fashion (which he admitted) went after civilians. It also explains why he doesn't mind killing Muslims in his attacks which he did on 9/11. It's all indiscriminate.
To him I'm as much to blame as you a non Muslim because he saw us all as part of the same system which kills civilians in the Middle East. This obviously isn't true.
Bin Laden was a mad man but he could have been negotiated with, as we have seen with Ireland sometimes that's the only way you can achieve peace. Extreme characters talking.
Daesh are a little different, they are run not by a Caliph but by former Batthist (secular not Islamic) party members who served under Saddam. The self proclaimed Caliph, Abu Bakr al Baghdadi is anonymous. He has made one recorded video in which he revealed him self and one audio recording. Before mutterings of his rumoured death he could have made countless recordings or a brief public appearances to talk to Muslims... he didn't. He's a pawn.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/thedebateinitiative.com/2016/03/26/the-secular-baathist-leadership-of-isis-expose-by-channel-4-uk/amp/
They wanted their power back and now they are turning confused young Muslims into disgusting murderers to do it.
Don't buy into the Caliphate talk, it can never happen unless all Muslims consent to a chosen Caliph.
If you skip two pages across on this link below and read number 22 you will see what I'm talking about. It elaborates further on.
http://www.lettertobaghdadi.com/
That letter was created and signed by multiple scholars.
Long story short I only disagree with what you think the aims are of these groups. Daesh are after regaining power in the Middle East not a global Caliphate. The last time I checked they had as little as 30,000 followers/fighters, making it impossible for them to claim a legitimate Caliphate.
Bin Laden was after unity in the Middle East but used forbidden murderous tactics to fight imperialism. The Americans used his desire to fight invaders to good effect against the Russians, they underestimated how crazy he really was.
The American and European militaries should never be allowed anywhere near the Middle East, they should be distrusted and are because of the overwhelming evidence politicians use them for causes motivated by greed.
The current threat of Daesh should be stamped out by an Arab coalition.
These are my thoughts based on studying what they have said and done anyway, feel free to disagree.
KFC, I haven't read you link because you're addressing the feasibility of a Caliphate, which is beyond the actual point, on two counts:
IT IS A STATED OBJECTIVE. The fact it might never be workable hasn't stopped many terrorist leaders stating this objective on multiple occasions. We are fully aware of this in Spain, because Al-Andalus (i.e. the vast majority of Spain) is one of the declared territories earmaked for reintegration into a Caliphate. There's no reason whatsoever to believe that extremist violence would cease. I am sure it's not your intention, but I can see how tying extremist violence in so intimately and exclusively with the U.S./Western military presence and support of corrupt regimes in the M.E. can lead people to drawing those conclusions you wish to avoid.
Second, and as stated already, U.S./European withdrawal IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN as long as fossil fuels remain of the maximum strategic and economic importance. To aspire to this is deluded in the extreme - it simply is not how power works or has ever worked in the history of humankind. Also, explain how it is less legitimate than the original spread of Islam through conquest?
I would prefer it if it were without lengthy quotes from others. Just your views, whatever they're based on.
Notwithstanding all of the above, I feel that it all strays well away from the fundamental point in my original post: I was not saying Western presence in the M.E. is to be ignored; my main point was that while that is undoubtedly an important factor (as stated), a large part of the current problem on home soil is related to alienated populations and that there are clearly neglected social factors that need addressing. In my opinion, immigration isn't the problem at all, and that the factors involved have much more do with equal opportunities and a more equitative spread of the national wealth a sense of social justice.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
I strongly agree with your last paragraph IOAG, and would add as a further point of consideration the pressures brought to bear on members and indeed whole sections of society by a culture of competition that requires that people continually measure their success (wealth) against that of their friends, neighbours and peers to determine their value as a human being.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
comment by Just Shoot (U10408)
posted 4 hours, 12 minutes ago
A more equal spread of national wealth and social justice will only happen with a banking collapse.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not necessarily. A banking collapse could lead a multitude of different outcomes.
comment by Arthur Johnson (U6426)
posted 13 hours, 57 minutes ago
KFC, I haven't read you link because you're addressing the feasibility of a Caliphate, which is beyond the actual point, on two counts:
IT IS A STATED OBJECTIVE. The fact it might never be workable hasn't stopped many terrorist leaders stating this objective on multiple occasions. We are fully aware of this in Spain, because Al-Andalus (i.e. the vast majority of Spain) is one of the declared territories earmaked for reintegration into a Caliphate. There's no reason whatsoever to believe that extremist violence would cease. I am sure it's not your intention, but I can see how tying extremist violence in so intimately and exclusively with the U.S./Western military presence and support of corrupt regimes in the M.E. can lead people to drawing those conclusions you wish to avoid.
Second, and as stated already, U.S./European withdrawal IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN as long as fossil fuels remain of the maximum strategic and economic importance. To aspire to this is deluded in the extreme - it simply is not how power works or has ever worked in the history of humankind. Also, explain how it is less legitimate than the original spread of Islam through conquest?
I would prefer it if it were without lengthy quotes from others. Just your views, whatever they're based on.
Notwithstanding all of the above, I feel that it all strays well away from the fundamental point in my original post: I was not saying Western presence in the M.E. is to be ignored; my main point was that while that is undoubtedly an important factor (as stated), a large part of the current problem on home soil is related to alienated populations and that there are clearly neglected social factors that need addressing. In my opinion, immigration isn't the problem at all, and that the factors involved have much more do with equal opportunities and a more equitative spread of the national wealth a sense of social justice.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
A Caliphate is a stated objective for what reason?
To actually establish a Caliphate which is literally impossible with no support?
Or is it a stated objective, forged primarily to lure enough recruits to wrestle control of what was lost in the Middle East, primarily Iraq?
The leaders of Daesh are secularists and they have been for decades, the manipulation of Islam and the promise of a Caliphate are their tools. They have no serious interest in establishing a global Caliphate because they have no interest in the principles of Islam and they didn't when they served under Saddam.
The violence would cease from THEM once they have what they want, of course that doesn't mean another group wouldn't pop up and start killing civilians. Obviously we don't want to give them what they want and the only way of doing that is with an Arab coalition.
Education would be a priority after that, to totally eradicate their ideology but who cares about education when you don't have running water, electricity and actual schools to learn in?
"I am sure it's not your intention, but I can see how tying extremist violence in so intimately and exclusively with the U.S./Western military presence and support of corrupt regimes in the M.E. can lead people to drawing those conclusions you wish to avoid."
There isn't a nation on earth which wouldn't fall into corruption and violence if an external power:
A) Colonised it and drew new borders creating sectarian divides.
B) Raped it of it's natural resources.
C) Killed millions through illegal wars, sanctions and the arming of extremists who crave power.
D) Overthrowing governments and installing dictators.
E) Destroying infrastructure, like water treatment plants, power plants, schools, hospitals and places of worship.
If all of this had happened the UK over the last 100, this place would also be a hot bed of extremism. The far right is getting stronger everyday as a result of a few terrorist attacks. Imagine what it would be like if the amount of bombs which were dropped in Iraq and Syria were dropped on the UK.
The extremism problem would rightfully be considered a product of all of that oppression, ignorance not addressed with education is what would fuel that anger even more.
This is whats happening in the Middle East and to a smaller extent in the west.
I connect extremism with western military massacres (lets call them what they are) because if you are a man of science then almost all of the data points to the vast majority of the terrorism over here being a product of imperialism.
If you use your eyes and ears, you'll notice the terrorists confirm this.
If you look at history then you'll see nothing like this has ever existed in the Islamic world.... suicide as a means of killing civilians???
Two of the most important laws (suicide is forbidden as is killing non combatants) found within Islam broken just like that. People are doing it for political reasons because their way of life has been tampered with for way to long
This is how I draw my conclusions.
Now to address your main point.....
The radicalisation of young Muslims has to do with neglected social factors which you rightly pointed but it also has to do with Islamic education.
I have only said this a hand full of times because I'm usually to busy trying to defend Islam/Muslim but the way in which Islam is taught is a big factor.
Imams concentrate (in my experience) on the ritualistic parts of Islam so much that they neglect the philosophical approach one should have towards the religion.
The Quran used to be studied by Muslims now it is read without understanding, Imams are now revered as if they are infallible.
An individualistic approach is disappearing and an approach in which a Muslim just falls in line behind their selected Imam/scholar is favoured.
This is dangerous because if a Muslim puts his entire trust into one scholar and forgets his own intellect then he/she can become easily manipulated.
This is ONE of the problems Muslims have, people on the far right call for a reinterpretation of Islam, I say we need a renaissance is Islam. It's sad that the Muslim world was more civilised and philosophically advanced 500 years ago than it is today.
You talked about alienation being a factor which is true but alienation can push an individual into any direction of violence. What causes Muslims in particular to be pushed onto violence is an elementary to non existent understanding of their own religion.
"Also, explain how it is less legitimate than the original spread of Islam through conquest?"
Aggressive warfare by Muslims or Non Muslims are both illegitimate, I have no problem in saying that because my faith is in God not human beings. I can easily and without hesitation call out a bad Muslim and I have said multiple times I despise every current Muslim leader.
The spread of the Islamic ideology just like the ideology of democracy wasn't all spread by aggressive warfare but defensive warfare (N@zi Germany/Byzantine empire) it's important to make that distinction.
My final point and this has always been my point in everyone of these threads, is that education is of paramount importance. The vacuum left behind in the absence of education breeds hate on both ends of the spectrum.
Basically the solution is Jeremy Corbyn, a bloke I hold high and above any Muslim head of state.
Some great points about education in those last few paragraphs KFC. Particuarly how Islamic interpretation can be hijacked by those with a perceived better understanding for their own means. That one point has been echoed throughout history in people in power and influence using exactly that tactic to get people to do their bidding. Often with horrific results. Sadly is human nature.
Religeon provides a good tool to do this, which is one of my reasons for thinking it has no place as we move in and science and understanding shows the correct path. But, it's far from the only tool, and those that are evil/power hungry with agendas always find a way.
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Anything Goes Politics Edition
Page 144 of 274
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posted on 19/6/17
When you taking it up again? Or you seriously becoming a doctor?
posted on 19/6/17
Good to see civil chat here boys, on a day when another extremist brings death and misery to innocent people.
My father died seven years ago today from cancer, and if killers could see hospitals, hospices and realise how fleeting life can be, perhaps they would step back, and appreciate precious life....rather than take it, or throw theirs away.
Peace
posted on 19/6/17
Sorry to hear that, tbab. RIP your old man.
And yes, on days like these, more than ever, peace.
posted on 19/6/17
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 19/6/17
comment by Arthur Johnson (U6426)
posted 1 minute ago
Sorry to hear that, tbab. RIP your old man.
And yes, on days like these, more than ever, peace.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I lived in the Brixton, Hounslow and Heathrow areas and it was fairly chilled and friendly, even though a little culture shock from greater Belfast.
I have seen and been in the middle of trouble in Belfast, Glasgow and London, but nowadays what happens in London makes me feel safecand secure in Belfast, weirdly!
After a minutes silence for the tower fire, and talking about the attack on Muslims today, colleagues agreed we were now lucky in central Belfast, as this was our third minutes silence for tragedy and terror in three weeks in England.
Changed times, but we do not wish it on anyone.
posted on 19/6/17
Thanks for your K and words about my da, Arthur😢
posted on 19/6/17
When you taking it up again? Or you seriously becoming a doctor?
-------------
Tbh I no longer have the software or time to restart it, shame as I did actually enjoy the process. Becoming a doctor went off the menu a long time ago! I've re-specialised as an engineer now
posted on 19/6/17
comment by Zachsda(We found a money tree) (U1850)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by thebluebellsareblue (U9292)
posted 10 minutes ago
Good to see civil chat here boys, on a day when another extremist brings death and misery to innocent people.
My father died seven years ago today from cancer, and if killers could see hospitals, hospices and realise how fleeting life can be, perhaps they would step back, and appreciate precious life....rather than take it, or throw theirs away.
Peace
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sadly they wouldn't they'd find a cause that justifies them
There are some noble causes to die for
Recent events were none of them
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Zach
I fear you are correct.
Having met and studied the far right and some extreme loyalists, the guys involved are often not the popular kids at school, or the good looking, or the smart folk.
Often lost souls,,looking for a reason to get up with n the morning,,so they latch on to a white facist cause.
Same applies to Muslim extremist guys,,if you check how many were small time criminals, thieves, drug abuser etc, until they find a preacher or computer to brainwash small minds.
Hooligans in fitba fit this stereotype too,,of not that bright and seeking to belong.
Problem with this today is murder, rather than just hateful thoughts, as life becomes cheap.
posted on 19/6/17
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 20/6/17
Good post tbab.
renoog - not planning to stay in college forever then? You done now?
posted on 20/6/17
Yeah I graduated a few years ago. Having doubts over engineering as a long-term career though, looking to get into something more cutting-edge.
posted on 20/6/17
It's amazing, Muslims and Non Muslims have spent years telling other people that the attacks against civilians in the west are a result of extremists exacting revenge on us using twisted rationalisations.
= Terrorist Sympathiser
People are now calling the Mosque terrorist attack a revenge attack because other people mowed down non Muslims on London Bridge.
= Legit
Amazing!
posted on 20/6/17
comment by Kung Fu Cantona 🇵🇸 JeSuisPalestinian 🇵🇸 (U18082)
posted 2 hours, 40 minutes ago
It's amazing, Muslims and Non Muslims have spent years telling other people that the attacks against civilians in the west are a result of extremists exacting revenge on us using twisted rationalisations.
= Terrorist Sympathiser
People are now calling the Mosque terrorist attack a revenge attack because other people mowed down non Muslims on London Bridge.
= Legit
Amazing!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
KFC
I do not think, "people" are saying the attack by the Cardiff van man was legit, in any form.
I have seen Muslim folk on saying they expected this as attacks on much smaller scales were happening already.
Those beating up Jews, blacks or Asians from the 1930 's to today do not need Islamist extremist attacks for an excuse.
Extremists on whatever side do not excuses.
We should give them any legitimacy.
posted on 20/6/17
I didn't say others were saying it's a legitimate attack, I'm saying that calling something out as a revenge attack is now legitimate to do.
You said you have heard Muslim folk saying they expected this attack, yes I was one of them.
If thats a reason for being able to call it revenge, then their are plenty of non Muslims on this thread who will tell you terror against non Muslim has a connection to foreign policy.
Scratch that, actual scientific data proves it, if that's what you rely on instead of your own eyes and ears when these things happen.
If somebody were to say that the murder of Lee Rigby was a revenge attack, WHICH IT WAS people will then call that person a terrorist sympathiser. Clear double standards.
I can separate my self from the emotion and acknowledge that the mosque terror attack was probably revenge in response to the London Bridge terror attack.
I can also separate my self from the emotion of the London Bridge terror attack to acknowledge that it was probably an act of revenge in response to Muslims dying else where.
That doesn't absolve either of the attackers of their vile crimes, all it is, is pointing out a motivating factor.
Pointing out the factors which motivate these people doesn't rationalise or legitimise their actions, but it's a way out of this mess.
The sooner we start recognising why deranged individuals do these things the sooner they will stop happening and as long as the person saying these things acknowledges that the civilians killed in these atrocities are innocent in all of this, then there is no danger in it.
posted on 20/6/17
comment by Kung Fu Cantona 🇵🇸 JeSuisPalestinian 🇵🇸 (U18082)
posted 15 minutes ago
I didn't say others were saying it's a legitimate attack, I'm saying that calling something out as a revenge attack is now legitimate to do.
You said you have heard Muslim folk saying they expected this attack, yes I was one of them.
If thats a reason for being able to call it revenge, then their are plenty of non Muslims on this thread who will tell you terror against non Muslim has a connection to foreign policy.
Scratch that, actual scientific data proves it, if that's what you rely on instead of your own eyes and ears when these things happen.
If somebody were to say that the murder of Lee Rigby was a revenge attack, WHICH IT WAS people will then call that person a terrorist sympathiser. Clear double standards.
I can separate my self from the emotion and acknowledge that the mosque terror attack was probably revenge in response to the London Bridge terror attack.
I can also separate my self from the emotion of the London Bridge terror attack to acknowledge that it was probably an act of revenge in response to Muslims dying else where.
That doesn't absolve either of the attackers of their vile crimes, all it is, is pointing out a motivating factor.
Pointing out the factors which motivate these people doesn't rationalise or legitimise their actions, but it's a way out of this mess.
The sooner we start recognising why deranged individuals do these things the sooner they will stop happening and as long as the person saying these things acknowledges that the civilians killed in these atrocities are innocent in all of this, then there is no danger in it.
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Fair points bud.
Problem is, the so called far right and political right are growing now, from Russia, through central and western Europe, the uk and into the USA.
They see the Lee rigby, Manchester and London bridge attacks in exactly the same way some Muslims sees suffering among his faith group or country....not all of course, as many Muslim people are in the army, or do not view war in Iraq,or Syria or Libya as their fight.
posted on 21/6/17
I think both of you are right, though I'd add that your points address only one dimension of the problem - revenge for violence perpetrated against others.
I think here, we need to realise 2 very important things:
1. Due to the potential economic repercussions of industrialised nations losing control of their main energy resources, pulling troops out of Muslim nations in the Middle East and elsewhere isn't going to happen, no matter what, until we no longer depend on fossil fuels as a major energy supply.
Even though the bomb-laden morons flinging themselves against civilians might not realise that, the people pulling the strings are definitely aware.
2. While insisting that the above is impossible, even if they did pull out it would not solve the issue. The stated objective of ISIS and AL-Qaeda is to establish a caliphate stretching way beyond the current geographical limits of Muslim majorities.
So...
While acknowledging that violence, corruption and autocracy in the M.E. -for which industrialised nations are also partly but by no means entirely responsible- are a big part of the problem, we need also to address equally huge issues much closer to home:
A large majority of these suicide attacks are being perpetrated by people born in the West, and who very often haven't even followed a very Islamic path prior to being radicalised. A lot of them have been involved in petty and sometime more serious crime, some have been pushers, even pimps.
It isn't a common denominator, because you've also had college graduates from affluent backgrounds, but what's painfully obvious is that there are not just political but also social factors at work here.
There's huge work to be done in our home societies apart from police and secret services efforts to prevent radicalisation and the more immediate terrorist threat. Given the number of years now that terrorism has been on the rise, I find it totally shocking that we haven't heard a lot more from any of our governments as regards identifying the root causes of alienation in our own societies or laying out what would undoubtably need to be long-term plans to address this issue.
This is something we should ALL be demanding from our governments. Other than the immediate action against actual terrorists of whatever persuasion and their aiders and abetters, this is ought to be imo the primary area of concern.
posted on 21/6/17
comment by Arthur Johnson (U6426)
posted 11 hours, 21 minutes ago
I think both of you are right, though I'd add that your points address only one dimension of the problem - revenge for violence perpetrated against others.
I think here, we need to realise 2 very important things:
1. Due to the potential economic repercussions of industrialised nations losing control of their main energy resources, pulling troops out of Muslim nations in the Middle East and elsewhere isn't going to happen, no matter what, until we no longer depend on fossil fuels as a major energy supply.
Even though the bomb-laden morons flinging themselves against civilians might not realise that, the people pulling the strings are definitely aware.
2. While insisting that the above is impossible, even if they did pull out it would not solve the issue. The stated objective of ISIS and AL-Qaeda is to establish a caliphate stretching way beyond the current geographical limits of Muslim majorities.
So...
While acknowledging that violence, corruption and autocracy in the M.E. -for which industrialised nations are also partly but by no means entirely responsible- are a big part of the problem, we need also to address equally huge issues much closer to home:
A large majority of these suicide attacks are being perpetrated by people born in the West, and who very often haven't even followed a very Islamic path prior to being radicalised. A lot of them have been involved in petty and sometime more serious crime, some have been pushers, even pimps.
It isn't a common denominator, because you've also had college graduates from affluent backgrounds, but what's painfully obvious is that there are not just political but also social factors at work here.
There's huge work to be done in our home societies apart from police and secret services efforts to prevent radicalisation and the more immediate terrorist threat. Given the number of years now that terrorism has been on the rise, I find it totally shocking that we haven't heard a lot more from any of our governments as regards identifying the root causes of alienation in our own societies or laying out what would undoubtably need to be long-term plans to address this issue.
This is something we should ALL be demanding from our governments. Other than the immediate action against actual terrorists of whatever persuasion and their aiders and abetters, this is ought to be imo the primary area of concern.
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Excellent post, sir.
There is more sense written on this sports forum, than that spoken in parliament.....or in political programmes.
posted on 22/6/17
Arthur
I agree with a lot of that but you are a little off in my opinion.
Some idiot, i can't remember who, accused me of supporting Bin Laden when I last used these quotes last, I trust you won't.
Both Al Qaeda and Daesh have aims, Bin Ladens were a little more obvious though.
First his irrational excuse for killing innocent civilians.
“They [the Muslim scholars] say that the killing of innocents is wrong and invalid, and for proof, they say that the Prophet forbade the killing of children and women, and that is true. It is valid and has been laid down by the Prophet in an authentic tradition…but this forbidding of killing children and innocents is not set in stone…if the disbelievers were to kill our children and women, then we should not feel ashamed to do the same to them, mainly to deter them from trying to kill our children and women again”
Osama Bin Laden – October 21, 2001, al-Jazeera interview quoted in ‘Messages to the World: The Statements of Osama Bin Laden’ by Bruce Lawrence
May I add he actually acknowledges in that paragraph it's forbidden to kill civilians but he condones it because it mirrors how civilians are casually killed in the Middle East.
“Free people do not relinquish their security. This is contrary to Bush’s claim that we hate freedom. Let him tell us why we did not strike Sweden for example…your security is in your own hands. Each and every state that does not tamper with our security will have automatically assured its own security”
Osama Bin Laden (Videotape broadcast on al-Jazeera TV as reported in a BBC article 29 October 2004)
So he refutes the line people use about terrorists wanting to kill us because they hate our freedom and says if the ME is secure then so are we.
“The American people should remember that they pay taxes to their government and that they voted for their president. Their government makes weapons and provides them to Israel, which they use to kill Palestinian Muslims. Given that the American Congress is a committee that represents the people, the fact that it agrees with the actions of the American government proves that America in its entirety is responsible for the atrocities that is is committing against Muslims. I demand the American people to take note of their government’s policy against Muslims. They described the government’s policy against Vietnam as wrong. They should now take the same stand that they did previously. The onus is on Americans to prevent Muslims from being killed at the hands of their government”.
Osama Bin Laden (Interview with Pakistani Daily Newspapers, Ausaf, 7th November 2001, and Al-Quds al Arabi, 12th November 2001)
Here he places responsibility on the citizens because we live in a democracy and we have the power to choose who commands our laws and by extension our foreign policy.
These are the reason why he irrationally and in an unIslamic fashion (which he admitted) went after civilians. It also explains why he doesn't mind killing Muslims in his attacks which he did on 9/11. It's all indiscriminate.
To him I'm as much to blame as you a non Muslim because he saw us all as part of the same system which kills civilians in the Middle East. This obviously isn't true.
Bin Laden was a mad man but he could have been negotiated with, as we have seen with Ireland sometimes that's the only way you can achieve peace. Extreme characters talking.
Daesh are a little different, they are run not by a Caliph but by former Batthist (secular not Islamic) party members who served under Saddam. The self proclaimed Caliph, Abu Bakr al Baghdadi is anonymous. He has made one recorded video in which he revealed him self and one audio recording. Before mutterings of his rumoured death he could have made countless recordings or a brief public appearances to talk to Muslims... he didn't. He's a pawn.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/thedebateinitiative.com/2016/03/26/the-secular-baathist-leadership-of-isis-expose-by-channel-4-uk/amp/
They wanted their power back and now they are turning confused young Muslims into disgusting murderers to do it.
Don't buy into the Caliphate talk, it can never happen unless all Muslims consent to a chosen Caliph.
If you skip two pages across on this link below and read number 22 you will see what I'm talking about. It elaborates further on.
http://www.lettertobaghdadi.com/
That letter was created and signed by multiple scholars.
Long story short I only disagree with what you think the aims are of these groups. Daesh are after regaining power in the Middle East not a global Caliphate. The last time I checked they had as little as 30,000 followers/fighters, making it impossible for them to claim a legitimate Caliphate.
Bin Laden was after unity in the Middle East but used forbidden murderous tactics to fight imperialism. The Americans used his desire to fight invaders to good effect against the Russians, they underestimated how crazy he really was.
The American and European militaries should never be allowed anywhere near the Middle East, they should be distrusted and are because of the overwhelming evidence politicians use them for causes motivated by greed.
The current threat of Daesh should be stamped out by an Arab coalition.
These are my thoughts based on studying what they have said and done anyway, feel free to disagree.
posted on 22/6/17
KFC, I haven't read you link because you're addressing the feasibility of a Caliphate, which is beyond the actual point, on two counts:
IT IS A STATED OBJECTIVE. The fact it might never be workable hasn't stopped many terrorist leaders stating this objective on multiple occasions. We are fully aware of this in Spain, because Al-Andalus (i.e. the vast majority of Spain) is one of the declared territories earmaked for reintegration into a Caliphate. There's no reason whatsoever to believe that extremist violence would cease. I am sure it's not your intention, but I can see how tying extremist violence in so intimately and exclusively with the U.S./Western military presence and support of corrupt regimes in the M.E. can lead people to drawing those conclusions you wish to avoid.
Second, and as stated already, U.S./European withdrawal IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN as long as fossil fuels remain of the maximum strategic and economic importance. To aspire to this is deluded in the extreme - it simply is not how power works or has ever worked in the history of humankind. Also, explain how it is less legitimate than the original spread of Islam through conquest?
I would prefer it if it were without lengthy quotes from others. Just your views, whatever they're based on.
Notwithstanding all of the above, I feel that it all strays well away from the fundamental point in my original post: I was not saying Western presence in the M.E. is to be ignored; my main point was that while that is undoubtedly an important factor (as stated), a large part of the current problem on home soil is related to alienated populations and that there are clearly neglected social factors that need addressing. In my opinion, immigration isn't the problem at all, and that the factors involved have much more do with equal opportunities and a more equitative spread of the national wealth a sense of social justice.
posted on 22/6/17
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 22/6/17
I strongly agree with your last paragraph IOAG, and would add as a further point of consideration the pressures brought to bear on members and indeed whole sections of society by a culture of competition that requires that people continually measure their success (wealth) against that of their friends, neighbours and peers to determine their value as a human being.
posted on 22/6/17
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 22/6/17
comment by Just Shoot (U10408)
posted 4 hours, 12 minutes ago
A more equal spread of national wealth and social justice will only happen with a banking collapse.
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Not necessarily. A banking collapse could lead a multitude of different outcomes.
posted on 24/6/17
comment by Arthur Johnson (U6426)
posted 13 hours, 57 minutes ago
KFC, I haven't read you link because you're addressing the feasibility of a Caliphate, which is beyond the actual point, on two counts:
IT IS A STATED OBJECTIVE. The fact it might never be workable hasn't stopped many terrorist leaders stating this objective on multiple occasions. We are fully aware of this in Spain, because Al-Andalus (i.e. the vast majority of Spain) is one of the declared territories earmaked for reintegration into a Caliphate. There's no reason whatsoever to believe that extremist violence would cease. I am sure it's not your intention, but I can see how tying extremist violence in so intimately and exclusively with the U.S./Western military presence and support of corrupt regimes in the M.E. can lead people to drawing those conclusions you wish to avoid.
Second, and as stated already, U.S./European withdrawal IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN as long as fossil fuels remain of the maximum strategic and economic importance. To aspire to this is deluded in the extreme - it simply is not how power works or has ever worked in the history of humankind. Also, explain how it is less legitimate than the original spread of Islam through conquest?
I would prefer it if it were without lengthy quotes from others. Just your views, whatever they're based on.
Notwithstanding all of the above, I feel that it all strays well away from the fundamental point in my original post: I was not saying Western presence in the M.E. is to be ignored; my main point was that while that is undoubtedly an important factor (as stated), a large part of the current problem on home soil is related to alienated populations and that there are clearly neglected social factors that need addressing. In my opinion, immigration isn't the problem at all, and that the factors involved have much more do with equal opportunities and a more equitative spread of the national wealth a sense of social justice.
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A Caliphate is a stated objective for what reason?
To actually establish a Caliphate which is literally impossible with no support?
Or is it a stated objective, forged primarily to lure enough recruits to wrestle control of what was lost in the Middle East, primarily Iraq?
The leaders of Daesh are secularists and they have been for decades, the manipulation of Islam and the promise of a Caliphate are their tools. They have no serious interest in establishing a global Caliphate because they have no interest in the principles of Islam and they didn't when they served under Saddam.
The violence would cease from THEM once they have what they want, of course that doesn't mean another group wouldn't pop up and start killing civilians. Obviously we don't want to give them what they want and the only way of doing that is with an Arab coalition.
Education would be a priority after that, to totally eradicate their ideology but who cares about education when you don't have running water, electricity and actual schools to learn in?
"I am sure it's not your intention, but I can see how tying extremist violence in so intimately and exclusively with the U.S./Western military presence and support of corrupt regimes in the M.E. can lead people to drawing those conclusions you wish to avoid."
There isn't a nation on earth which wouldn't fall into corruption and violence if an external power:
A) Colonised it and drew new borders creating sectarian divides.
B) Raped it of it's natural resources.
C) Killed millions through illegal wars, sanctions and the arming of extremists who crave power.
D) Overthrowing governments and installing dictators.
E) Destroying infrastructure, like water treatment plants, power plants, schools, hospitals and places of worship.
If all of this had happened the UK over the last 100, this place would also be a hot bed of extremism. The far right is getting stronger everyday as a result of a few terrorist attacks. Imagine what it would be like if the amount of bombs which were dropped in Iraq and Syria were dropped on the UK.
The extremism problem would rightfully be considered a product of all of that oppression, ignorance not addressed with education is what would fuel that anger even more.
This is whats happening in the Middle East and to a smaller extent in the west.
I connect extremism with western military massacres (lets call them what they are) because if you are a man of science then almost all of the data points to the vast majority of the terrorism over here being a product of imperialism.
If you use your eyes and ears, you'll notice the terrorists confirm this.
If you look at history then you'll see nothing like this has ever existed in the Islamic world.... suicide as a means of killing civilians???
Two of the most important laws (suicide is forbidden as is killing non combatants) found within Islam broken just like that. People are doing it for political reasons because their way of life has been tampered with for way to long
This is how I draw my conclusions.
Now to address your main point.....
The radicalisation of young Muslims has to do with neglected social factors which you rightly pointed but it also has to do with Islamic education.
I have only said this a hand full of times because I'm usually to busy trying to defend Islam/Muslim but the way in which Islam is taught is a big factor.
Imams concentrate (in my experience) on the ritualistic parts of Islam so much that they neglect the philosophical approach one should have towards the religion.
The Quran used to be studied by Muslims now it is read without understanding, Imams are now revered as if they are infallible.
An individualistic approach is disappearing and an approach in which a Muslim just falls in line behind their selected Imam/scholar is favoured.
This is dangerous because if a Muslim puts his entire trust into one scholar and forgets his own intellect then he/she can become easily manipulated.
This is ONE of the problems Muslims have, people on the far right call for a reinterpretation of Islam, I say we need a renaissance is Islam. It's sad that the Muslim world was more civilised and philosophically advanced 500 years ago than it is today.
You talked about alienation being a factor which is true but alienation can push an individual into any direction of violence. What causes Muslims in particular to be pushed onto violence is an elementary to non existent understanding of their own religion.
"Also, explain how it is less legitimate than the original spread of Islam through conquest?"
Aggressive warfare by Muslims or Non Muslims are both illegitimate, I have no problem in saying that because my faith is in God not human beings. I can easily and without hesitation call out a bad Muslim and I have said multiple times I despise every current Muslim leader.
The spread of the Islamic ideology just like the ideology of democracy wasn't all spread by aggressive warfare but defensive warfare (N@zi Germany/Byzantine empire) it's important to make that distinction.
My final point and this has always been my point in everyone of these threads, is that education is of paramount importance. The vacuum left behind in the absence of education breeds hate on both ends of the spectrum.
Basically the solution is Jeremy Corbyn, a bloke I hold high and above any Muslim head of state.
posted on 24/6/17
Some great points about education in those last few paragraphs KFC. Particuarly how Islamic interpretation can be hijacked by those with a perceived better understanding for their own means. That one point has been echoed throughout history in people in power and influence using exactly that tactic to get people to do their bidding. Often with horrific results. Sadly is human nature.
Religeon provides a good tool to do this, which is one of my reasons for thinking it has no place as we move in and science and understanding shows the correct path. But, it's far from the only tool, and those that are evil/power hungry with agendas always find a way.
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