The only Loyalty in football is solely with the fan.
If you're getting a wage then you're only as good as your last game.
Past success clearly counts but if a manager has lost the dressing room, or lost the plot often they aren't going to turn it around. I often think it is more about outside pressure from fans etc which keeps some managers in a job longer than they should.
Might sound ungrateful but I was delighted when DiMatteo got the sack, he'll go down in folk-law for winning the CL but I really didn't rate him at all.
Football is all about the next game. History generally doesn't mean a lot. The one exception at the moment I think is Pep, but even for him I think all it would buy is one season.
What does differ is the criteria for success. At some clubs the bar is set very high - for example at Chelsea. At most big clubs, top 4 is the minimum. All Ranieri had to do was mid table and he'd still be a hero.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
I think there is case at some point its better for the manager and the club to part and move forward.
The relationship between club and manager can be broken beyond repair. Which is the case for Mourinho last season. As much as I liked him as a manager, I knew there was no moving on from this.
I think it comes down to unity and the confidence in the manager. Under Moyes it never seemed like the club was tearing itself apart, but the club was right not to be confident in his managing ability.
comment by Ace (U18814)
posted 1 minute ago
While some Chelsea fans felt Jose should be sacked, others and almost every pundit in the country felt we had a duty to stick by him because of what he has done for the club, and while he probably (no definitely) got more time because of that eventually sacking him for Conte has proven to be a masterstroke, and probably the best decision any club in England have made regarding a manager since we appointed him the first time.
-------------
Bit early to say that. Conte has got off to a very good start but he's only been there 8 months; the content of your own article suggests that unless it's maintained Roman will have no hesitation in giving him the same axe he's given every other manager he's employed since 2003. I would make a more significant judgement on Conte next season when Chelsea are back in the CL.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I mean more in terms of what he has done with the team. We look to finally have an identity on and off the pitch which we haven't had since Jose the first time. I can only see Conte getting sacked if we have a total breakdown in performance level's like we did in Ancelotti's second season and even more spectacularly Jose last season!!!!
It can't really: How long a manager lasts depends mostly on the owners, who may or may not take past success into consideration
I am wary to say hiring conte was a master stroke. Let him do this for 3 seasons + first
I can understand why Arsenal fans would be loyal to Wenger or why Leicester fans would be loyal to Ranieri or why Chealsea fans were still very loyal to Mourinho last season. Because all three managers have brought great success to the club at some point during their tenure.
However what I don't understand is when fan's back and praise a manager who has done nothing for club purely because of that manager's previous success with former clubs.
Currently we have two examples in this league. Klopp and too a lesser extent Mourinho have not improved their team since Rodgers and LVG yet both fan bases worship the bones of both managers as if they have won them the treble.
Both have achieved incredible success in the past and therefore deserved the chance at the club as well as to be given time, because both their track records should give the owners faith they can turn it around. However my point is even though neither as of yet have achieved success with the club, both fan bases worship them.
No matter your previous success with other clubs, you have a clean slate at your new club and previous success at other clubs should not save you from criticism.
It's just makes no sense to me. It's like worshiping an abusive partner because they were such a loving partner to their ex.
But by that time Conte may have moved on to pastures new.
I personally think the game has passed Wenger and Mourinho to an extent
comment by VincentWanyama (U21339)
posted 6 minutes ago
However what I don't understand is when fan's back and praise a manager who has done nothing for club purely because of that manager's previous success with former clubs.
Currently we have two examples in this league. Klopp and too a lesser extent Mourinho have not improved their team since Rodgers and LVG yet both fan bases worship the bones of both managers as if they have won them the treble.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I can help you out with that one if you want.
Firstly, he's not worshipped, just rated as an excellent manager. An accolade which many feel he's earned through success at Dortmund.
Secondly, in the last 5 years we've finished 8th, 7th, 2nd, 6th, 8th. In the last 7 years we've qualified for the CL once and got knocked out in the group stage.
I saw all of this to get a bit of perspective - who better are we going to get than Klopp? We've got a better manager than we can arguably expect to have on recent history.
Most fans are grateful to have a manager with his track record at the club and are willing to give him every opportunity to succeed - i.e. support. If you think this is odd then fair enough, that's your prerogative, but I'd say it's fairly normal.
Wanyama - that's true to an extent, although there are plenty on our board that criticise the manager openly on this board for the things he has got wrong, but there is definitely an improvement that has been made in the football. Much like Liverpool with Suarez in his first season we seem to be having one of those where we are missing lots of chances and they have been critical to the results. Due to this and the improvements he is getting a pretty easy ride at the moment and we have been on a massive unbeaten run in the PL.
I can't speak for the scousers but pretty sure most of them would say the same about their new manager, there was an improvement last season in the football, not necessarily in the results. And until January there was an improvement, whether they feel the same at the end of the season may well depend on where they finish in the league.
I admire you optimism about Conte, especially against a backdrop of mounting evidence that he'll likely be sacked in a season or so. How can you call the appointment of Conte a masterstroke, as if you've finally discovered the holy grail, when this is no different to when Jose won in his first season. It's not a sign of continued success, that's you've finally got it right. It's just the same old stitch in the same old tapestry that clubs like Chelsea create. In two seasons, he'll be gone. History tells us that, no matter how good things seem now.
comment by Hector (U3606)
posted 48 minutes ago
If you're getting a wage then you're only as good as your last game.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's hit the nail on the head. And very good wages at the top.
Post Ferguson though with the money available to the top 6 teams I think we will see much more competition for the title than in the last 20 years. I feel its probably unlikely that anyone team will dominate the domestic scene like that for quite a while.
Unless the bubble bursts on the TV money I think it's more likely that the top 6 will interchange for the next decade or so.
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 7 minutes ago
I admire you optimism about Conte, especially against a backdrop of mounting evidence that he'll likely be sacked in a season or so. How can you call the appointment of Conte a masterstroke, as if you've finally discovered the holy grail, when this is no different to when Jose won in his first season. It's not a sign of continued success, that's you've finally got it right. It's just the same old stitch in the same old tapestry that clubs like Chelsea create. In two seasons, he'll be gone. History tells us that, no matter how good things seem now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Definition of ignorance.
comment by Republik of Mancunia (U6779)
posted 4 minutes ago
Wanyama - that's true to an extent, although there are plenty on our board that criticise the manager openly on this board for the things he has got wrong, but there is definitely an improvement that has been made in the football. Much like Liverpool with Suarez in his first season we seem to be having one of those where we are missing lots of chances and they have been critical to the results. Due to this and the improvements he is getting a pretty easy ride at the moment and we have been on a massive unbeaten run in the PL.
I can't speak for the scousers but pretty sure most of them would say the same about their new manager, there was an improvement last season in the football, not necessarily in the results. And until January there was an improvement, whether they feel the same at the end of the season may well depend on where they finish in the league.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's kind of why I said Mourinho to an extent because this is his first full season and since November you have been fairly good. However Klopp is now into his second season and has not progressed Liverpool further than they were under Rodgers. At this time Mourinho deserves the benefit of doubt however if, like Klopp, he is unable to make strong progression in his second season then he deservedly deserves to be put under scrutiny.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
comment by Returning managers (U1762)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 7 minutes ago
I admire you optimism about Conte, especially against a backdrop of mounting evidence that he'll likely be sacked in a season or so. How can you call the appointment of Conte a masterstroke, as if you've finally discovered the holy grail, when this is no different to when Jose won in his first season. It's not a sign of continued success, that's you've finally got it right. It's just the same old stitch in the same old tapestry that clubs like Chelsea create. In two seasons, he'll be gone. History tells us that, no matter how good things seem now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Definition of ignorance.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Definition of a realist. Give it a couple of years before you choose an adjective with which to judge my post. More than that, I'd say it's almost ignorant to dismiss history when making a judgement call about how long a manager will last.
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 7 seconds ago
comment by Returning managers (U1762)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 7 minutes ago
I admire you optimism about Conte, especially against a backdrop of mounting evidence that he'll likely be sacked in a season or so. How can you call the appointment of Conte a masterstroke, as if you've finally discovered the holy grail, when this is no different to when Jose won in his first season. It's not a sign of continued success, that's you've finally got it right. It's just the same old stitch in the same old tapestry that clubs like Chelsea create. In two seasons, he'll be gone. History tells us that, no matter how good things seem now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Definition of ignorance.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Definition of a realist. Give it a couple of years before you choose an adjective with which to judge my post. More than that, I'd say it's almost ignorant to dismiss history when making a judgement call about how long a manager will last.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No, you are ignorant because you don't have a clue what you are on about.
Previous sackings have been either rectifying the mistake of appointing them (AVB, Scolari) or because we stagnated (Jose, Carlo). The latter could happen with Conte few years down the line but it certainly won't be anytime soon and it will very likely be after a few trophies.
If we are going down the history route, Conte has never failed to win the title with teams good enough too, by youre logic the rest of you are fecked.
comment by Returning managers (U1762)
posted 42 minutes ago
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 7 seconds ago
comment by Returning managers (U1762)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 7 minutes ago
I admire you optimism about Conte, especially against a backdrop of mounting evidence that he'll likely be sacked in a season or so. How can you call the appointment of Conte a masterstroke, as if you've finally discovered the holy grail, when this is no different to when Jose won in his first season. It's not a sign of continued success, that's you've finally got it right. It's just the same old stitch in the same old tapestry that clubs like Chelsea create. In two seasons, he'll be gone. History tells us that, no matter how good things seem now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Definition of ignorance.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Definition of a realist. Give it a couple of years before you choose an adjective with which to judge my post. More than that, I'd say it's almost ignorant to dismiss history when making a judgement call about how long a manager will last.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No, you are ignorant because you don't have a clue what you are on about.
Previous sackings have been either rectifying the mistake of appointing them (AVB, Scolari) or because we stagnated (Jose, Carlo). The latter could happen with Conte few years down the line but it certainly won't be anytime soon and it will very likely be after a few trophies.
If we are going down the history route, Conte has never failed to win the title with teams good enough too, by youre logic the rest of you are fecked.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Fridge boy is right tbh.
Yeh we'll win the title this season but if we win fk all next season and didn't come top 4 then Conte would be sacked
Ranieri & Leicester are THE single worst example of what your are getting at here OP
Leicester fans are still wondering to this day why a EUFA select 11 were playing in their place last year...it's just so unprecedented
Ranieri really should be safe there, but he needs to start playing his players like Vardy & Gray & the board need to stump up some serious wedge to bolster the team
They still have CL to play...but that'll be short lived, and then they need to concentrate on hard work to retain their Prem status...minimum
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 1 hour, 13 minutes ago
I admire you optimism about Conte, especially against a backdrop of mounting evidence that he'll likely be sacked in a season or so. How can you call the appointment of Conte a masterstroke, as if you've finally discovered the holy grail, when this is no different to when Jose won in his first season. It's not a sign of continued success, that's you've finally got it right. It's just the same old stitch in the same old tapestry that clubs like Chelsea create. In two seasons, he'll be gone. History tells us that, no matter how good things seem now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is so so bitter
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
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How long can past success save a manager?
Page 1 of 3
posted on 9/2/17
The only Loyalty in football is solely with the fan.
If you're getting a wage then you're only as good as your last game.
posted on 9/2/17
Past success clearly counts but if a manager has lost the dressing room, or lost the plot often they aren't going to turn it around. I often think it is more about outside pressure from fans etc which keeps some managers in a job longer than they should.
Might sound ungrateful but I was delighted when DiMatteo got the sack, he'll go down in folk-law for winning the CL but I really didn't rate him at all.
posted on 9/2/17
Football is all about the next game. History generally doesn't mean a lot. The one exception at the moment I think is Pep, but even for him I think all it would buy is one season.
What does differ is the criteria for success. At some clubs the bar is set very high - for example at Chelsea. At most big clubs, top 4 is the minimum. All Ranieri had to do was mid table and he'd still be a hero.
posted on 9/2/17
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 9/2/17
I think there is case at some point its better for the manager and the club to part and move forward.
The relationship between club and manager can be broken beyond repair. Which is the case for Mourinho last season. As much as I liked him as a manager, I knew there was no moving on from this.
I think it comes down to unity and the confidence in the manager. Under Moyes it never seemed like the club was tearing itself apart, but the club was right not to be confident in his managing ability.
posted on 9/2/17
comment by Ace (U18814)
posted 1 minute ago
While some Chelsea fans felt Jose should be sacked, others and almost every pundit in the country felt we had a duty to stick by him because of what he has done for the club, and while he probably (no definitely) got more time because of that eventually sacking him for Conte has proven to be a masterstroke, and probably the best decision any club in England have made regarding a manager since we appointed him the first time.
-------------
Bit early to say that. Conte has got off to a very good start but he's only been there 8 months; the content of your own article suggests that unless it's maintained Roman will have no hesitation in giving him the same axe he's given every other manager he's employed since 2003. I would make a more significant judgement on Conte next season when Chelsea are back in the CL.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I mean more in terms of what he has done with the team. We look to finally have an identity on and off the pitch which we haven't had since Jose the first time. I can only see Conte getting sacked if we have a total breakdown in performance level's like we did in Ancelotti's second season and even more spectacularly Jose last season!!!!
posted on 9/2/17
It can't really: How long a manager lasts depends mostly on the owners, who may or may not take past success into consideration
posted on 9/2/17
I am wary to say hiring conte was a master stroke. Let him do this for 3 seasons + first
posted on 9/2/17
I can understand why Arsenal fans would be loyal to Wenger or why Leicester fans would be loyal to Ranieri or why Chealsea fans were still very loyal to Mourinho last season. Because all three managers have brought great success to the club at some point during their tenure.
However what I don't understand is when fan's back and praise a manager who has done nothing for club purely because of that manager's previous success with former clubs.
Currently we have two examples in this league. Klopp and too a lesser extent Mourinho have not improved their team since Rodgers and LVG yet both fan bases worship the bones of both managers as if they have won them the treble.
Both have achieved incredible success in the past and therefore deserved the chance at the club as well as to be given time, because both their track records should give the owners faith they can turn it around. However my point is even though neither as of yet have achieved success with the club, both fan bases worship them.
No matter your previous success with other clubs, you have a clean slate at your new club and previous success at other clubs should not save you from criticism.
It's just makes no sense to me. It's like worshiping an abusive partner because they were such a loving partner to their ex.
posted on 9/2/17
But by that time Conte may have moved on to pastures new.
posted on 9/2/17
I personally think the game has passed Wenger and Mourinho to an extent
posted on 9/2/17
comment by VincentWanyama (U21339)
posted 6 minutes ago
However what I don't understand is when fan's back and praise a manager who has done nothing for club purely because of that manager's previous success with former clubs.
Currently we have two examples in this league. Klopp and too a lesser extent Mourinho have not improved their team since Rodgers and LVG yet both fan bases worship the bones of both managers as if they have won them the treble.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I can help you out with that one if you want.
Firstly, he's not worshipped, just rated as an excellent manager. An accolade which many feel he's earned through success at Dortmund.
Secondly, in the last 5 years we've finished 8th, 7th, 2nd, 6th, 8th. In the last 7 years we've qualified for the CL once and got knocked out in the group stage.
I saw all of this to get a bit of perspective - who better are we going to get than Klopp? We've got a better manager than we can arguably expect to have on recent history.
Most fans are grateful to have a manager with his track record at the club and are willing to give him every opportunity to succeed - i.e. support. If you think this is odd then fair enough, that's your prerogative, but I'd say it's fairly normal.
posted on 9/2/17
Wanyama - that's true to an extent, although there are plenty on our board that criticise the manager openly on this board for the things he has got wrong, but there is definitely an improvement that has been made in the football. Much like Liverpool with Suarez in his first season we seem to be having one of those where we are missing lots of chances and they have been critical to the results. Due to this and the improvements he is getting a pretty easy ride at the moment and we have been on a massive unbeaten run in the PL.
I can't speak for the scousers but pretty sure most of them would say the same about their new manager, there was an improvement last season in the football, not necessarily in the results. And until January there was an improvement, whether they feel the same at the end of the season may well depend on where they finish in the league.
posted on 9/2/17
I admire you optimism about Conte, especially against a backdrop of mounting evidence that he'll likely be sacked in a season or so. How can you call the appointment of Conte a masterstroke, as if you've finally discovered the holy grail, when this is no different to when Jose won in his first season. It's not a sign of continued success, that's you've finally got it right. It's just the same old stitch in the same old tapestry that clubs like Chelsea create. In two seasons, he'll be gone. History tells us that, no matter how good things seem now.
posted on 9/2/17
comment by Hector (U3606)
posted 48 minutes ago
If you're getting a wage then you're only as good as your last game.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's hit the nail on the head. And very good wages at the top.
posted on 9/2/17
Post Ferguson though with the money available to the top 6 teams I think we will see much more competition for the title than in the last 20 years. I feel its probably unlikely that anyone team will dominate the domestic scene like that for quite a while.
Unless the bubble bursts on the TV money I think it's more likely that the top 6 will interchange for the next decade or so.
posted on 9/2/17
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 7 minutes ago
I admire you optimism about Conte, especially against a backdrop of mounting evidence that he'll likely be sacked in a season or so. How can you call the appointment of Conte a masterstroke, as if you've finally discovered the holy grail, when this is no different to when Jose won in his first season. It's not a sign of continued success, that's you've finally got it right. It's just the same old stitch in the same old tapestry that clubs like Chelsea create. In two seasons, he'll be gone. History tells us that, no matter how good things seem now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Definition of ignorance.
posted on 9/2/17
comment by Republik of Mancunia (U6779)
posted 4 minutes ago
Wanyama - that's true to an extent, although there are plenty on our board that criticise the manager openly on this board for the things he has got wrong, but there is definitely an improvement that has been made in the football. Much like Liverpool with Suarez in his first season we seem to be having one of those where we are missing lots of chances and they have been critical to the results. Due to this and the improvements he is getting a pretty easy ride at the moment and we have been on a massive unbeaten run in the PL.
I can't speak for the scousers but pretty sure most of them would say the same about their new manager, there was an improvement last season in the football, not necessarily in the results. And until January there was an improvement, whether they feel the same at the end of the season may well depend on where they finish in the league.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's kind of why I said Mourinho to an extent because this is his first full season and since November you have been fairly good. However Klopp is now into his second season and has not progressed Liverpool further than they were under Rodgers. At this time Mourinho deserves the benefit of doubt however if, like Klopp, he is unable to make strong progression in his second season then he deservedly deserves to be put under scrutiny.
posted on 9/2/17
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 9/2/17
comment by Returning managers (U1762)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 7 minutes ago
I admire you optimism about Conte, especially against a backdrop of mounting evidence that he'll likely be sacked in a season or so. How can you call the appointment of Conte a masterstroke, as if you've finally discovered the holy grail, when this is no different to when Jose won in his first season. It's not a sign of continued success, that's you've finally got it right. It's just the same old stitch in the same old tapestry that clubs like Chelsea create. In two seasons, he'll be gone. History tells us that, no matter how good things seem now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Definition of ignorance.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Definition of a realist. Give it a couple of years before you choose an adjective with which to judge my post. More than that, I'd say it's almost ignorant to dismiss history when making a judgement call about how long a manager will last.
posted on 9/2/17
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 7 seconds ago
comment by Returning managers (U1762)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 7 minutes ago
I admire you optimism about Conte, especially against a backdrop of mounting evidence that he'll likely be sacked in a season or so. How can you call the appointment of Conte a masterstroke, as if you've finally discovered the holy grail, when this is no different to when Jose won in his first season. It's not a sign of continued success, that's you've finally got it right. It's just the same old stitch in the same old tapestry that clubs like Chelsea create. In two seasons, he'll be gone. History tells us that, no matter how good things seem now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Definition of ignorance.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Definition of a realist. Give it a couple of years before you choose an adjective with which to judge my post. More than that, I'd say it's almost ignorant to dismiss history when making a judgement call about how long a manager will last.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No, you are ignorant because you don't have a clue what you are on about.
Previous sackings have been either rectifying the mistake of appointing them (AVB, Scolari) or because we stagnated (Jose, Carlo). The latter could happen with Conte few years down the line but it certainly won't be anytime soon and it will very likely be after a few trophies.
If we are going down the history route, Conte has never failed to win the title with teams good enough too, by youre logic the rest of you are fecked.
posted on 9/2/17
comment by Returning managers (U1762)
posted 42 minutes ago
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 7 seconds ago
comment by Returning managers (U1762)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 7 minutes ago
I admire you optimism about Conte, especially against a backdrop of mounting evidence that he'll likely be sacked in a season or so. How can you call the appointment of Conte a masterstroke, as if you've finally discovered the holy grail, when this is no different to when Jose won in his first season. It's not a sign of continued success, that's you've finally got it right. It's just the same old stitch in the same old tapestry that clubs like Chelsea create. In two seasons, he'll be gone. History tells us that, no matter how good things seem now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Definition of ignorance.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Definition of a realist. Give it a couple of years before you choose an adjective with which to judge my post. More than that, I'd say it's almost ignorant to dismiss history when making a judgement call about how long a manager will last.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No, you are ignorant because you don't have a clue what you are on about.
Previous sackings have been either rectifying the mistake of appointing them (AVB, Scolari) or because we stagnated (Jose, Carlo). The latter could happen with Conte few years down the line but it certainly won't be anytime soon and it will very likely be after a few trophies.
If we are going down the history route, Conte has never failed to win the title with teams good enough too, by youre logic the rest of you are fecked.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Fridge boy is right tbh.
Yeh we'll win the title this season but if we win fk all next season and didn't come top 4 then Conte would be sacked
posted on 9/2/17
Ranieri & Leicester are THE single worst example of what your are getting at here OP
Leicester fans are still wondering to this day why a EUFA select 11 were playing in their place last year...it's just so unprecedented
Ranieri really should be safe there, but he needs to start playing his players like Vardy & Gray & the board need to stump up some serious wedge to bolster the team
They still have CL to play...but that'll be short lived, and then they need to concentrate on hard work to retain their Prem status...minimum
posted on 9/2/17
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 1 hour, 13 minutes ago
I admire you optimism about Conte, especially against a backdrop of mounting evidence that he'll likely be sacked in a season or so. How can you call the appointment of Conte a masterstroke, as if you've finally discovered the holy grail, when this is no different to when Jose won in his first season. It's not a sign of continued success, that's you've finally got it right. It's just the same old stitch in the same old tapestry that clubs like Chelsea create. In two seasons, he'll be gone. History tells us that, no matter how good things seem now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is so so bitter
posted on 9/2/17
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Page 1 of 3