Ivanovic is a Chelsea legend.If Fabregas helps Chelsea in winning Champions League once or multiple times,he will definitely become a Chelsea legend and he is now not as good as he was for Arsenal prior to his Barcelona move.
Frankly, people who talk about assist stats know absolutely feck all about football.
----------------------------------------------------------
Odd argument from you Biggish. I recall several discussions back on the old 606 where I'd throw out pie in the sky theories and you'd ground everything down to 'evidence'. Stats are evidence, everything else is interpretation.
With the Fabregas argument. I'm certain stats will reflect that he assists a sh!t ton of goals. That of course doesn't mean he's the best worker, most intelligent, most complete, etc... but it does mean he can pick out a pass in key areas of the pitch, which is an incredibly valuable asset in any player.
comment by SWTN - Judas is number 1 (U7916)
posted 4 hours, 25 minutes ago
Modric in his prime miles better than Fab.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
His prime was not in the PL. Fabregas was/is easily the better PL player.
Stats are evidence, everything else is interpretation.
---------------------------------------------------------
I've never considered stats as evidence. You can use them anyway you want and they can lend themselves to all sorts of misleading arguments.
A pass to a player two feet away is the same stat as one made over 50 yards for pass completion. An assist just means you had the last touch before a goal was scored, whereas the credit should have gone to the player who ran 2/3s the length of the pitch taking on half the opposition!
Stats have created so many myths and legends!
Stats are literally what they are. They only become misleading when people create myths around the literal truth of the stat (e.g. Lampard is the greatest PL goalscorer from midfield, that's statistically proven fact, but it doesn't mean he's the greatest midfielder in PL history).
In Fabregas' case. Assuming he has very impressive assist stats spanning over his PL career. Yes it doesn't show he's the greatest runner, worker, tackler, scorer, even passer... but it's a fair assumption to make that he's a very accurate passer (which is true) and knows where to put himself on the pitch to provide that final touch before the goalscorers (also true).
comment by The Devil's Advocate's Advocate - I ... (U6522)
posted 8 hours, 47 minutes ago
Frankly, people who talk about assist stats know absolutely feck all about football.
----------------------------------------------------------
Odd argument from you Biggish. I recall several discussions back on the old 606 where I'd throw out pie in the sky theories and you'd ground everything down to 'evidence'. Stats are evidence, everything else is interpretation.
With the Fabregas argument. I'm certain stats will reflect that he assists a sh!t ton of goals. That of course doesn't mean he's the best worker, most intelligent, most complete, etc... but it does mean he can pick out a pass in key areas of the pitch, which is an incredibly valuable asset in any player.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The question is...exactly what does the assist stat tell you? what exactly is it evidence of?
comment by ＴＬＬＬ ★ (U4640)
posted 8 hours, 25 minutes ago
comment by SWTN - Judas is number 1 (U7916)
posted 4 hours, 25 minutes ago
Modric in his prime miles better than Fab.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
His prime was not in the PL. Fabregas was/is easily the better PL player.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Why does it matter about the what league.
Fabregas is a miles better PL player than Messi, Iniesta, Neymar and Xavi too
and also Devil.....an other question, what is the key area of the pitch?
comment by #LiquidGenius (U20571)
posted 10 hours, 18 minutes ago
comment by SWTN - Judas is number 1 (U7916)
Frankly, people who talk about assist stats know absolutely feck all about football.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What about Chances Created?
Apart from Ozil, who's statistically the best chance-creator by a mile, Fabregas is up there with the rest (Messi, Xavi, Silva etc.) in terms of chances created.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Liquid...i made the remark to be controversial, but it is what i believ tbh...
A question for you, exactly when is the chance created?
I know people automatically think the final pass, i don't think that way. I loook at what happened 2 3 maybe even 4 phases before a goal was scored as to what bit of play really started the opportunity.
It if for that reason why i rate Modric so highly and why i think he would have made Chelsea an amazaing team had we bought him
Whenever an article about Fabregas appears I always come across as not liking him.
I do rate him, I think he was pivotal for us last season coming on late in games and having a huge positive impact. i also think in the last 4/5 weeks he has been playing much better and is deserving of his place.
But i do think he is massively overrated, so when i see the Fab "love in" articles i always end up agst him lol
Silva another example like Modric by the way, he tees up the play a few phases in advance...................also gets plenty of assist too.
I know people automatically think the final pass, i don't think that way. I loook at what happened 2 3 maybe even 4 phases before a goal was scored as to what bit of play really started the opportunity.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Spot on
comment by SWTN - Judas is number 1 (U7916)
posted 3 hours, 23 minutes ago
comment by ＴＬＬＬ ★ (U4640)
posted 8 hours, 25 minutes ago
comment by SWTN - Judas is number 1 (U7916)
posted 4 hours, 25 minutes ago
Modric in his prime miles better than Fab.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
His prime was not in the PL. Fabregas was/is easily the better PL player.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Why does it matter about the what league.
Fabregas is a miles better PL player than Messi, Iniesta, Neymar and Xavi too
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Because that what the article is asking!!!
Biggish
By key area of the pitch I mean now's how to position himself based on the movement of his teammates and tempo of the build up to be available to make that final pass accurately and consistently. The build up can be fantastic, but if that final pass is poor everything breaks down usually when the team has committed to joining the attack (if said player is the final pass), leaving an easy counter for the opposition. That final pass is the most important.
Think what you're driving at is for a player to be considered a legend he can't be a luxury player, which Fabregas can be particularly in big matches. Which is fair enough, just about individual preferences
I think a legend is a player who whatever position he plays, consistently plays to an excellent standard and consistently influences the result of a game.
Fabregas sadly does not come under that category.
And just to counter your point, if there is no build up, there can be no opportunity for a final pass
But it's easier to rebuild an attack from the middle of the pitch rather than the opponents half, hence the final ball is the most important - only thing more important is the final player in the attack scoring.
What was the most important part of the pitch when we played Man City at home?
comment by SWTN - Judas is number 1 (U7916)
posted 4 hours, 31 minutes ago
What was the most important part of the pitch when we played Man City at home?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The midfield that we couldn't hold!
Obviously the most important part of the pitch to control in any match is the midfield, but it's the action at each end of the pitch that determines the result. There's a reason DM's usually have the best pass completion stats in any team that expects to control the midfield in most games (Mikel's pass completion stats were incredible ), the further up the pitch an attack progresses the harder it is to maintain.
In that respect assists as they're defined (the final pass) are a legitimate gauge of a player's value to a team. They don't tell you everything about him as I've already said, but it's not something that should be shrugged off in a debate about any player.
Its not something that should be touted as overwhelming supportive evidence to a players worth to his team either.
comment by BrummieBlue! (U3487)
posted 9 hours ago
comment by SWTN - Judas is number 1 (U7916)
posted 4 hours, 31 minutes ago
What was the most important part of the pitch when we played Man City at home?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The midfield that we couldn't hold!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yep, and also that our back three were not allowed to pass out due to City's pressing.
Those two factors denied us any control of the game.
Fabregas rarely gets hold of a game and controls it, the best midfield players do........either the Viera, Essien Keane types of midfield player through power energy and physicality or the Silva, Xavi modric typr midfield player through technique and football brain power
Do agree he doesn't grab hold of games on his own, but if he's given space by the opposition they'll rarely go unpunished. Most recent example was United at home, they gave him space and he ran the midfield. Ozil's similar.
comment by BrummieBlue! (U3487)
posted 1 day, 8 hours ago
comment by SWTN - Judas is number 1 (U7916)
posted 4 hours, 31 minutes ago
What was the most important part of the pitch when we played Man City at home?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The midfield that we couldn't hold!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
what abiout against utd than brummie?
comment by Nickasaurus (U9257)
posted 10 minutes ago
comment by BrummieBlue! (U3487)
posted 1 day, 8 hours ago
comment by SWTN - Judas is number 1 (U7916)
posted 4 hours, 31 minutes ago
What was the most important part of the pitch when we played Man City at home?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The midfield that we couldn't hold!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
what abiout against utd than brummie?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Because Biggish asked about the City game Nick, not the Yoonited game, hence I never commented on it!
The clue is in Biggish's post!!
Sign in if you want to comment
Fabregas a legend?
Page 5 of 6
6
posted on 8/12/17
Ivanovic is a Chelsea legend.If Fabregas helps Chelsea in winning Champions League once or multiple times,he will definitely become a Chelsea legend and he is now not as good as he was for Arsenal prior to his Barcelona move.
posted on 8/12/17
Frankly, people who talk about assist stats know absolutely feck all about football.
----------------------------------------------------------
Odd argument from you Biggish. I recall several discussions back on the old 606 where I'd throw out pie in the sky theories and you'd ground everything down to 'evidence'. Stats are evidence, everything else is interpretation.
With the Fabregas argument. I'm certain stats will reflect that he assists a sh!t ton of goals. That of course doesn't mean he's the best worker, most intelligent, most complete, etc... but it does mean he can pick out a pass in key areas of the pitch, which is an incredibly valuable asset in any player.
posted on 8/12/17
comment by SWTN - Judas is number 1 (U7916)
posted 4 hours, 25 minutes ago
Modric in his prime miles better than Fab.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
His prime was not in the PL. Fabregas was/is easily the better PL player.
posted on 8/12/17
Stats are evidence, everything else is interpretation.
---------------------------------------------------------
I've never considered stats as evidence. You can use them anyway you want and they can lend themselves to all sorts of misleading arguments.
A pass to a player two feet away is the same stat as one made over 50 yards for pass completion. An assist just means you had the last touch before a goal was scored, whereas the credit should have gone to the player who ran 2/3s the length of the pitch taking on half the opposition!
Stats have created so many myths and legends!
posted on 9/12/17
Stats are literally what they are. They only become misleading when people create myths around the literal truth of the stat (e.g. Lampard is the greatest PL goalscorer from midfield, that's statistically proven fact, but it doesn't mean he's the greatest midfielder in PL history).
In Fabregas' case. Assuming he has very impressive assist stats spanning over his PL career. Yes it doesn't show he's the greatest runner, worker, tackler, scorer, even passer... but it's a fair assumption to make that he's a very accurate passer (which is true) and knows where to put himself on the pitch to provide that final touch before the goalscorers (also true).
posted on 9/12/17
comment by The Devil's Advocate's Advocate - I ... (U6522)
posted 8 hours, 47 minutes ago
Frankly, people who talk about assist stats know absolutely feck all about football.
----------------------------------------------------------
Odd argument from you Biggish. I recall several discussions back on the old 606 where I'd throw out pie in the sky theories and you'd ground everything down to 'evidence'. Stats are evidence, everything else is interpretation.
With the Fabregas argument. I'm certain stats will reflect that he assists a sh!t ton of goals. That of course doesn't mean he's the best worker, most intelligent, most complete, etc... but it does mean he can pick out a pass in key areas of the pitch, which is an incredibly valuable asset in any player.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The question is...exactly what does the assist stat tell you? what exactly is it evidence of?
posted on 9/12/17
comment by ＴＬＬＬ ★ (U4640)
posted 8 hours, 25 minutes ago
comment by SWTN - Judas is number 1 (U7916)
posted 4 hours, 25 minutes ago
Modric in his prime miles better than Fab.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
His prime was not in the PL. Fabregas was/is easily the better PL player.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Why does it matter about the what league.
Fabregas is a miles better PL player than Messi, Iniesta, Neymar and Xavi too
posted on 9/12/17
and also Devil.....an other question, what is the key area of the pitch?
posted on 9/12/17
comment by #LiquidGenius (U20571)
posted 10 hours, 18 minutes ago
comment by SWTN - Judas is number 1 (U7916)
Frankly, people who talk about assist stats know absolutely feck all about football.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What about Chances Created?
Apart from Ozil, who's statistically the best chance-creator by a mile, Fabregas is up there with the rest (Messi, Xavi, Silva etc.) in terms of chances created.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Liquid...i made the remark to be controversial, but it is what i believ tbh...
A question for you, exactly when is the chance created?
I know people automatically think the final pass, i don't think that way. I loook at what happened 2 3 maybe even 4 phases before a goal was scored as to what bit of play really started the opportunity.
It if for that reason why i rate Modric so highly and why i think he would have made Chelsea an amazaing team had we bought him
posted on 9/12/17
Whenever an article about Fabregas appears I always come across as not liking him.
I do rate him, I think he was pivotal for us last season coming on late in games and having a huge positive impact. i also think in the last 4/5 weeks he has been playing much better and is deserving of his place.
But i do think he is massively overrated, so when i see the Fab "love in" articles i always end up agst him lol
posted on 9/12/17
Silva another example like Modric by the way, he tees up the play a few phases in advance...................also gets plenty of assist too.
posted on 9/12/17
I know people automatically think the final pass, i don't think that way. I loook at what happened 2 3 maybe even 4 phases before a goal was scored as to what bit of play really started the opportunity.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Spot on
posted on 9/12/17
comment by SWTN - Judas is number 1 (U7916)
posted 3 hours, 23 minutes ago
comment by ＴＬＬＬ ★ (U4640)
posted 8 hours, 25 minutes ago
comment by SWTN - Judas is number 1 (U7916)
posted 4 hours, 25 minutes ago
Modric in his prime miles better than Fab.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
His prime was not in the PL. Fabregas was/is easily the better PL player.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Why does it matter about the what league.
Fabregas is a miles better PL player than Messi, Iniesta, Neymar and Xavi too
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Because that what the article is asking!!!
posted on 9/12/17
Biggish
By key area of the pitch I mean now's how to position himself based on the movement of his teammates and tempo of the build up to be available to make that final pass accurately and consistently. The build up can be fantastic, but if that final pass is poor everything breaks down usually when the team has committed to joining the attack (if said player is the final pass), leaving an easy counter for the opposition. That final pass is the most important.
Think what you're driving at is for a player to be considered a legend he can't be a luxury player, which Fabregas can be particularly in big matches. Which is fair enough, just about individual preferences
posted on 9/12/17
I think a legend is a player who whatever position he plays, consistently plays to an excellent standard and consistently influences the result of a game.
Fabregas sadly does not come under that category.
And just to counter your point, if there is no build up, there can be no opportunity for a final pass
posted on 9/12/17
But it's easier to rebuild an attack from the middle of the pitch rather than the opponents half, hence the final ball is the most important - only thing more important is the final player in the attack scoring.
posted on 9/12/17
What was the most important part of the pitch when we played Man City at home?
posted on 9/12/17
comment by SWTN - Judas is number 1 (U7916)
posted 4 hours, 31 minutes ago
What was the most important part of the pitch when we played Man City at home?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The midfield that we couldn't hold!
posted on 10/12/17
Obviously the most important part of the pitch to control in any match is the midfield, but it's the action at each end of the pitch that determines the result. There's a reason DM's usually have the best pass completion stats in any team that expects to control the midfield in most games (Mikel's pass completion stats were incredible ), the further up the pitch an attack progresses the harder it is to maintain.
In that respect assists as they're defined (the final pass) are a legitimate gauge of a player's value to a team. They don't tell you everything about him as I've already said, but it's not something that should be shrugged off in a debate about any player.
posted on 10/12/17
Its not something that should be touted as overwhelming supportive evidence to a players worth to his team either.
posted on 10/12/17
comment by BrummieBlue! (U3487)
posted 9 hours ago
comment by SWTN - Judas is number 1 (U7916)
posted 4 hours, 31 minutes ago
What was the most important part of the pitch when we played Man City at home?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The midfield that we couldn't hold!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yep, and also that our back three were not allowed to pass out due to City's pressing.
Those two factors denied us any control of the game.
posted on 10/12/17
Fabregas rarely gets hold of a game and controls it, the best midfield players do........either the Viera, Essien Keane types of midfield player through power energy and physicality or the Silva, Xavi modric typr midfield player through technique and football brain power
posted on 10/12/17
Do agree he doesn't grab hold of games on his own, but if he's given space by the opposition they'll rarely go unpunished. Most recent example was United at home, they gave him space and he ran the midfield. Ozil's similar.
posted on 11/12/17
comment by BrummieBlue! (U3487)
posted 1 day, 8 hours ago
comment by SWTN - Judas is number 1 (U7916)
posted 4 hours, 31 minutes ago
What was the most important part of the pitch when we played Man City at home?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The midfield that we couldn't hold!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
what abiout against utd than brummie?
posted on 11/12/17
comment by Nickasaurus (U9257)
posted 10 minutes ago
comment by BrummieBlue! (U3487)
posted 1 day, 8 hours ago
comment by SWTN - Judas is number 1 (U7916)
posted 4 hours, 31 minutes ago
What was the most important part of the pitch when we played Man City at home?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The midfield that we couldn't hold!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
what abiout against utd than brummie?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Because Biggish asked about the City game Nick, not the Yoonited game, hence I never commented on it!
The clue is in Biggish's post!!
Page 5 of 6
6