We never should have won that game but I'll take it after the year we have had.
Hi chaps,
First and foremost I hope you’re all well.
A bit of a mixed bag of games today well so I’m pleased to see Japan been included amongst the top tier sides though there have to be some questions asked about some of the matches today.
In particular why you Ireland playing Italy in Chicago, what will this do for the average rugby fan in Limerick or Turin, and I can’t imagine that this sort of game will do much to develop an American audience. Similarly the Wales Scotland match seems a little bit of a curiosity I would’ve thought this would have been a more opportunity match to play the likes of tomorrow at Tonga, Fiji or Samoa.
Without doubt the main match today has to be England versus South Africa, which turned out to be a fantastic game of test rugby. Quite how England pulled that one out of the bag, or I suppose if you want more inclined, how South Africa blew it, is perhaps open to debate. I thought both sides played very very well England with a determine hard grinding defence and South Africa with a determined attack and some very very impressive three quarters. What was impressive from the England point of view was their ability to convert chances, I think there was only the one missed Farrell penalty that England had in the whole match and missed whilst with South Africa so many chances were butchered, inevitably the weight will fall on pollard but I think that’s unfair, there were so many chances butchered by the forwards in particular on the line out you have to question what they were up to similat;y missed opportunities to drop goals later on in the game.
Inevitably discussion will come down to whether the last tackle from Farrell was a foul or not and realistically one has to give way to the opinion of the referee who had the perfect opportunity to see it, all I have to say is that were I have South African fan I’d not be happy with the referees decision but as I am England fan I’ve been much more happy with it, certainly it seemed whilst Farrell did seem to have arms in there did seem rather have a shoulder barge of a tackle and I have to say I wouldn’t be overly impressed with it.
It will be interesting to see what comes of the forthcoming results and equally where all the different nations of the world stand at this particular moment in time, generally we’ve often tended to see the southern hemisphere nations improve performance significantly before Rugby World Cup whilst the northern hemisphere nations seem to pick just after rugby World Cup‘s and it will be interesting to see whether that plays out to be the same this time round
certainly South Africa and Argentina seem to have improved significantly over the last 2 years whilst one would have to say that not many of the northern hemisphere nations have done the same, who knows what France might get produce but let’s face it France are Franceand they are a law unto themselves
Hey SARS,
I agree on including the smaller nations more in the AI, it is the best opportunity to do so. I caught the first half of the US v Maori but it wasn't going well for them as they were missing most of their first XV. Over the next 10-15 years I really hope Japan, USA and Georgia can step up. Another interesting point is the location of matches, we see Ireland Italy as part of the 3 match thing in Chicago (I assume because it has a big Italian and Irish community) but also France and Italy touring their own country. France play in Lille and Italy go to Florence and Padua.
On to the England game, it was a gritty performance and the first half was an awful showing. Only Marx having a nightmare with his darts kept us in the game, we should have been 15 ish points behind going in. Eddie seemed to put a little fire in our belly for the second half and we made it a contest but even then we looked vulnerable. Our scrum got smashed and our pack lost the contact very badly, it is a concern.
For next week I think selection should be looked at. Daly for me is too weak under the high ball for test rugby, we need Brown back. Our centre pairing didn't work at all and I can't blame Te'o because he needs to play before he is considered. Slade was a disappointment, I'd like to see Manu (if fit) given a go and I'm sure that will give NZ something to remember 2012. I would go Ford, Farrell, Manu. We can't do anything about our front row right now but the back row can be looked at. The main positive (beside the W obviously) yesterday was Wilson and Curry, Shields on the other hand didn't impress and again like Te'o needs to play and get back his form. I would like to see Wilson, Curry, Morgan with Mercer on the bench. I suspect Eddie will go with a lock at 6 though unfortunately.
Next week it really kicks in and I'm very curious to see how all the NH sides get on. Can we compete with NZ? Will Wales get over their Aussie curse? There can't be a better time to do so. I'm actually really looking forward to the France SA game, that will be absolutely brutal and I do enjoy that sort of test match. A huge game for Georgia next week too, if they can beat Italy on their patch it sends a message and I for one will be hoping they can.
Went to Cardiff yesterday. Decent enough game and the better side won but it just wasnt the same atmosphere without a 6N result hanging on it. All a bit superfluous really since it was all about Doddie.
I get a bit perplexed about all this talk of developing the game globally by introducing tier 2 nations to the autumn internationals. How's about doing something really radical for some existing nations? How's about making it so that all Fijians play for Fiji? I reckon they'd be a serious force if they did.
You will notice Demus that i never mentioned Samoans or Tongans.
_______________________________________________________________
I know it's all in good fun mate but are you actually having a dig at England? On another forum there was a born XV teams and we would be fine believe me. Scotland on the other hand would be the worst affected and let's remember that the only nations who actively fund poaching project players are our celtic cousins
Zimbabwe would probably beat your lot under those rules!
I presume Curry won’t be fit, but Lawes and Tuilagi will be, so we might see Lawes and Kruis at second row, Itoje at 6, maybe Shields at 7
10 & 12 are intriguing against the All Blacks, I’d tend to think you need someone who can kick at 10, 12 & 15 so maybe Ford and Farrell. I’d be tempted to go Brown at 15 and Daly at 14, so the question is who out of Slade, Te’o and Tuilagi gets 13, I’d have to say Slade is the only out and out 13, so would that be Slade to start and Tuilagi for the bench? Maybe
Elsewhere Moon at 1?
I actually think Italy - Georgia, Scotland - Fiji and France - South Africa will be better matches, two really physical ones and Murrayfield weather permitting potentially a really high quality flair match
By the way apparently Michael Hooper would have been England eligible - I’d rate him as the best player in the World!
Yeah SARS his dad is from Hartlepool.
In the back row I would like Wilson Underhill Mercer/Morgan (but I am a bath fan). I just don't think Shields has been great and I don't like locks playing 6, even Itoje. As I put before my preference is Ford Farrell Tuilagi but getting Brown at FB is a must. Slade missed 50% of tackles he made/attempted, it's just not good enough.
No Mike Brown in the 25 man squad, so I guess thats May-Daly-Nowell at the back unless Ashton gets a look in, could be Care, Tuilagi, Ashton on the bench?
Underhill in the 25 though, I’m not overly impressed by him, but lets see I guess, Curry (taken away??) out for the rest of the series
Thoughts on Scotland - Fiji Show?
SARS
Worried mate. Prediction will be Scotland by 2 which tells you something. Them big boned athletic buqqers will take some stopping, as we discovered on their paddock a couple of years ago.
Demus
I'll just go with heritage mate, and thank the good Lord we produced so many missionaries. Jeez, I'm one myself among you Sassenach heathens.😇
Both
What you doing 26th January. Cordially invited to watch my club get stuffed as I host the annual Old Fartonians get together.
I know Show, you consider Hooper more English than someone like Marland Yarde.
I'm not sure what I will be up to in Jan yet, been pretty busy lately though. If I can I will make it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=975&v=5Gwe8LFyIio
For you Show if you have 15min. Essentially a video about the issue of eligibility and who suffer and gain from them.
From an England perspective, we have 27% foreign born in our squad which is pretty middle of the road but we are also (with NZ) significantly more poached than any other nations. I won't mention who is #1
Thats a very good piece of analysis, thanks for the link Demus.
On Jan 26, I have something pencilled in which may or may not happen, where is the gathering likely to be?
Also, how far do you think the last NH team will get in the Rugby World Cup - i’m going for semi-finals, will be interesting to see if there’s anything to change my mind in the autumn internationals
I think Ireland are very clearly the second best team in the world so if form plays out they should reach the final. A year can be a long time in rugby however. I haven't looked at the groups and likely paths yet because a favourable draw can really help. I only see one winner personally but the next two weeks are important, if we can win it might reinstall the confidence we lost and if Ireland win the following weekend it will be a real message.
I have my Georgia hat on this Saturday, really hope they can win. It's a huge test match!
comment by SARS in their eyes (SWFC 11) (U7837)
posted 4 days, 19 hours ago
I presume Curry won’t be fit, but Lawes and Tuilagi will be, so we might see Lawes and Kruis at second row, Itoje at 6, maybe Shields at 7
10 & 12 are intriguing against the All Blacks, I’d tend to think you need someone who can kick at 10, 12 & 15 so maybe Ford and Farrell. I’d be tempted to go Brown at 15 and Daly at 14, so the question is who out of Slade, Te’o and Tuilagi gets 13, I’d have to say Slade is the only out and out 13, so would that be Slade to start and Tuilagi for the bench? Maybe
Elsewhere Moon at 1?
I actually think Italy - Georgia, Scotland - Fiji and France - South Africa will be better matches, two really physical ones and Murrayfield weather permitting potentially a really high quality flair match
By the way apparently Michael Hooper would have been England eligible - I’d rate him as the best player in the World!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Hooper is not a worldclass 7. He is average in that position. He doesnt offer that mongrel in the tight.
Without wanting to sound like a bad loser, we were absolutely robbed against the all blacks today.
Scandalous decision, never offside, not even close. What game are these TMOs watching
I agree Neo, that was a terrible decision and it cost us a famous win. Disappointed for the players but hopefully they can pick themselves up and get 2 more wins this autumn.
comment by Neo (U9135)
posted 3 hours, 18 minutes ago
Without wanting to sound like a bad loser, we were absolutely robbed against the all blacks today.
Scandalous decision, never offside, not even close. What game are these TMOs watching
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The refs are so biased towards them. I have watched games this year in the RC and the amount of times they get away with infringements at the breakdown is unbelieveable.
I thought Farrell made the wrong decision not to kick on goal but opted for the lineout.
England have good depth now and for me Moon is a better scrummager than Hepburn. He held his own against Tu inakuafe as he is one of the best scrummager arround.
Completely agree Mane, NZ seem to get everything go their way from refs I have noticed that in recent years, they get away with murder at the rucks.
They are the rugby equivalent of Fergie’s Manchester United when it comes to referees. There’s no chance an unbiased referee gives that as offside today, no chance.
Gents, whilst this is unpleasant ultimately we have to admit Lawes was offside, whilst ex prima facie it was a fantastic try, Lawes started around a metre ahead of the England line, even those least Anglophobic notaries Messrs Moore and Guscott flagged it up.
We had other chances to win, penalty kicks that weren’t taken, getting too ambitious late on, but ultimately the All Blacks won because they took their chances and we did not - just as was the case in reverse against the Springboks the week before.
For me, if we’d kept Hartley on for another 10-20 mins we may well have won, but what really matters here is what we learn for Japan 2019, it hurts more, but you learn more from losing than winning
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
comment by Aristodemus (U3765)
posted 3 days, 10 hours ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=975&v=5Gwe8LFyIio
For you Show if you have 15min. Essentially a video about the issue of eligibility and who suffer and gain from them.
From an England perspective, we have 27% foreign born in our squad which is pretty middle of the road but we are also (with NZ) significantly more poached than any other nations. I won't mention who is #1
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You're doing it again mate, confusing poaching with heritage. Redo your stats after counting for the fact tgat any lad wants to impress his dad and grandad.
PS. Impressive performance by us yesterday. Took them on up front, focussed on their weakness, pummelled them when they had men in the bin and back to our harem-scarem best in the second half. Splendid. Joyous even.
Sticking by what I said, I thought it was a bull$hit call at the time and haven't changed my mind. It was split second stuff from the kiwi stepping forward and TJ lifting it. As Greenwood said if you have to spend that long checking for an offside then you shouldn't be giving it. I'd wager if you spent that long looking at every ruck in the last few minutes when we were attacking you could find at least one AB a few inches offside.
I was first to say last week that it should have been a penalty too, I like to think I'm objective on big calls.
P.S Cueto wasn't in touch!
Indeed Demus, life looks peachy through red rose tinted specs.
Talking of poaching, have you noticed that Gary Graham appears to have seen sense at last. I'm guessing that's from Father George playing the long game.
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2018 Autumn Internationals
Page 1 of 2
posted on 3/11/18
Good win for England
posted on 3/11/18
We never should have won that game but I'll take it after the year we have had.
posted on 3/11/18
Hi chaps,
First and foremost I hope you’re all well.
A bit of a mixed bag of games today well so I’m pleased to see Japan been included amongst the top tier sides though there have to be some questions asked about some of the matches today.
In particular why you Ireland playing Italy in Chicago, what will this do for the average rugby fan in Limerick or Turin, and I can’t imagine that this sort of game will do much to develop an American audience. Similarly the Wales Scotland match seems a little bit of a curiosity I would’ve thought this would have been a more opportunity match to play the likes of tomorrow at Tonga, Fiji or Samoa.
Without doubt the main match today has to be England versus South Africa, which turned out to be a fantastic game of test rugby. Quite how England pulled that one out of the bag, or I suppose if you want more inclined, how South Africa blew it, is perhaps open to debate. I thought both sides played very very well England with a determine hard grinding defence and South Africa with a determined attack and some very very impressive three quarters. What was impressive from the England point of view was their ability to convert chances, I think there was only the one missed Farrell penalty that England had in the whole match and missed whilst with South Africa so many chances were butchered, inevitably the weight will fall on pollard but I think that’s unfair, there were so many chances butchered by the forwards in particular on the line out you have to question what they were up to similat;y missed opportunities to drop goals later on in the game.
Inevitably discussion will come down to whether the last tackle from Farrell was a foul or not and realistically one has to give way to the opinion of the referee who had the perfect opportunity to see it, all I have to say is that were I have South African fan I’d not be happy with the referees decision but as I am England fan I’ve been much more happy with it, certainly it seemed whilst Farrell did seem to have arms in there did seem rather have a shoulder barge of a tackle and I have to say I wouldn’t be overly impressed with it.
It will be interesting to see what comes of the forthcoming results and equally where all the different nations of the world stand at this particular moment in time, generally we’ve often tended to see the southern hemisphere nations improve performance significantly before Rugby World Cup whilst the northern hemisphere nations seem to pick just after rugby World Cup‘s and it will be interesting to see whether that plays out to be the same this time round
certainly South Africa and Argentina seem to have improved significantly over the last 2 years whilst one would have to say that not many of the northern hemisphere nations have done the same, who knows what France might get produce but let’s face it France are Franceand they are a law unto themselves
posted on 4/11/18
Hey SARS,
I agree on including the smaller nations more in the AI, it is the best opportunity to do so. I caught the first half of the US v Maori but it wasn't going well for them as they were missing most of their first XV. Over the next 10-15 years I really hope Japan, USA and Georgia can step up. Another interesting point is the location of matches, we see Ireland Italy as part of the 3 match thing in Chicago (I assume because it has a big Italian and Irish community) but also France and Italy touring their own country. France play in Lille and Italy go to Florence and Padua.
On to the England game, it was a gritty performance and the first half was an awful showing. Only Marx having a nightmare with his darts kept us in the game, we should have been 15 ish points behind going in. Eddie seemed to put a little fire in our belly for the second half and we made it a contest but even then we looked vulnerable. Our scrum got smashed and our pack lost the contact very badly, it is a concern.
For next week I think selection should be looked at. Daly for me is too weak under the high ball for test rugby, we need Brown back. Our centre pairing didn't work at all and I can't blame Te'o because he needs to play before he is considered. Slade was a disappointment, I'd like to see Manu (if fit) given a go and I'm sure that will give NZ something to remember 2012. I would go Ford, Farrell, Manu. We can't do anything about our front row right now but the back row can be looked at. The main positive (beside the W obviously) yesterday was Wilson and Curry, Shields on the other hand didn't impress and again like Te'o needs to play and get back his form. I would like to see Wilson, Curry, Morgan with Mercer on the bench. I suspect Eddie will go with a lock at 6 though unfortunately.
Next week it really kicks in and I'm very curious to see how all the NH sides get on. Can we compete with NZ? Will Wales get over their Aussie curse? There can't be a better time to do so. I'm actually really looking forward to the France SA game, that will be absolutely brutal and I do enjoy that sort of test match. A huge game for Georgia next week too, if they can beat Italy on their patch it sends a message and I for one will be hoping they can.
posted on 4/11/18
Went to Cardiff yesterday. Decent enough game and the better side won but it just wasnt the same atmosphere without a 6N result hanging on it. All a bit superfluous really since it was all about Doddie.
I get a bit perplexed about all this talk of developing the game globally by introducing tier 2 nations to the autumn internationals. How's about doing something really radical for some existing nations? How's about making it so that all Fijians play for Fiji? I reckon they'd be a serious force if they did.
You will notice Demus that i never mentioned Samoans or Tongans.
_______________________________________________________________
posted on 4/11/18
I know it's all in good fun mate but are you actually having a dig at England? On another forum there was a born XV teams and we would be fine believe me. Scotland on the other hand would be the worst affected and let's remember that the only nations who actively fund poaching project players are our celtic cousins
Zimbabwe would probably beat your lot under those rules!
posted on 5/11/18
I presume Curry won’t be fit, but Lawes and Tuilagi will be, so we might see Lawes and Kruis at second row, Itoje at 6, maybe Shields at 7
10 & 12 are intriguing against the All Blacks, I’d tend to think you need someone who can kick at 10, 12 & 15 so maybe Ford and Farrell. I’d be tempted to go Brown at 15 and Daly at 14, so the question is who out of Slade, Te’o and Tuilagi gets 13, I’d have to say Slade is the only out and out 13, so would that be Slade to start and Tuilagi for the bench? Maybe
Elsewhere Moon at 1?
I actually think Italy - Georgia, Scotland - Fiji and France - South Africa will be better matches, two really physical ones and Murrayfield weather permitting potentially a really high quality flair match
By the way apparently Michael Hooper would have been England eligible - I’d rate him as the best player in the World!
posted on 5/11/18
Yeah SARS his dad is from Hartlepool.
In the back row I would like Wilson Underhill Mercer/Morgan (but I am a bath fan). I just don't think Shields has been great and I don't like locks playing 6, even Itoje. As I put before my preference is Ford Farrell Tuilagi but getting Brown at FB is a must. Slade missed 50% of tackles he made/attempted, it's just not good enough.
posted on 6/11/18
No Mike Brown in the 25 man squad, so I guess thats May-Daly-Nowell at the back unless Ashton gets a look in, could be Care, Tuilagi, Ashton on the bench?
Underhill in the 25 though, I’m not overly impressed by him, but lets see I guess, Curry (taken away??) out for the rest of the series
Thoughts on Scotland - Fiji Show?
posted on 6/11/18
SARS
Worried mate. Prediction will be Scotland by 2 which tells you something. Them big boned athletic buqqers will take some stopping, as we discovered on their paddock a couple of years ago.
Demus
I'll just go with heritage mate, and thank the good Lord we produced so many missionaries. Jeez, I'm one myself among you Sassenach heathens.😇
Both
What you doing 26th January. Cordially invited to watch my club get stuffed as I host the annual Old Fartonians get together.
posted on 7/11/18
I know Show, you consider Hooper more English than someone like Marland Yarde.
I'm not sure what I will be up to in Jan yet, been pretty busy lately though. If I can I will make it
posted on 7/11/18
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=975&v=5Gwe8LFyIio
For you Show if you have 15min. Essentially a video about the issue of eligibility and who suffer and gain from them.
From an England perspective, we have 27% foreign born in our squad which is pretty middle of the road but we are also (with NZ) significantly more poached than any other nations. I won't mention who is #1
posted on 7/11/18
Thats a very good piece of analysis, thanks for the link Demus.
On Jan 26, I have something pencilled in which may or may not happen, where is the gathering likely to be?
Also, how far do you think the last NH team will get in the Rugby World Cup - i’m going for semi-finals, will be interesting to see if there’s anything to change my mind in the autumn internationals
posted on 8/11/18
I think Ireland are very clearly the second best team in the world so if form plays out they should reach the final. A year can be a long time in rugby however. I haven't looked at the groups and likely paths yet because a favourable draw can really help. I only see one winner personally but the next two weeks are important, if we can win it might reinstall the confidence we lost and if Ireland win the following weekend it will be a real message.
I have my Georgia hat on this Saturday, really hope they can win. It's a huge test match!
posted on 10/11/18
comment by SARS in their eyes (SWFC 11) (U7837)
posted 4 days, 19 hours ago
I presume Curry won’t be fit, but Lawes and Tuilagi will be, so we might see Lawes and Kruis at second row, Itoje at 6, maybe Shields at 7
10 & 12 are intriguing against the All Blacks, I’d tend to think you need someone who can kick at 10, 12 & 15 so maybe Ford and Farrell. I’d be tempted to go Brown at 15 and Daly at 14, so the question is who out of Slade, Te’o and Tuilagi gets 13, I’d have to say Slade is the only out and out 13, so would that be Slade to start and Tuilagi for the bench? Maybe
Elsewhere Moon at 1?
I actually think Italy - Georgia, Scotland - Fiji and France - South Africa will be better matches, two really physical ones and Murrayfield weather permitting potentially a really high quality flair match
By the way apparently Michael Hooper would have been England eligible - I’d rate him as the best player in the World!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Hooper is not a worldclass 7. He is average in that position. He doesnt offer that mongrel in the tight.
posted on 10/11/18
Without wanting to sound like a bad loser, we were absolutely robbed against the all blacks today.
Scandalous decision, never offside, not even close. What game are these TMOs watching
posted on 10/11/18
I agree Neo, that was a terrible decision and it cost us a famous win. Disappointed for the players but hopefully they can pick themselves up and get 2 more wins this autumn.
posted on 10/11/18
comment by Neo (U9135)
posted 3 hours, 18 minutes ago
Without wanting to sound like a bad loser, we were absolutely robbed against the all blacks today.
Scandalous decision, never offside, not even close. What game are these TMOs watching
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The refs are so biased towards them. I have watched games this year in the RC and the amount of times they get away with infringements at the breakdown is unbelieveable.
I thought Farrell made the wrong decision not to kick on goal but opted for the lineout.
England have good depth now and for me Moon is a better scrummager than Hepburn. He held his own against Tu inakuafe as he is one of the best scrummager arround.
posted on 10/11/18
Completely agree Mane, NZ seem to get everything go their way from refs I have noticed that in recent years, they get away with murder at the rucks.
They are the rugby equivalent of Fergie’s Manchester United when it comes to referees. There’s no chance an unbiased referee gives that as offside today, no chance.
posted on 10/11/18
Gents, whilst this is unpleasant ultimately we have to admit Lawes was offside, whilst ex prima facie it was a fantastic try, Lawes started around a metre ahead of the England line, even those least Anglophobic notaries Messrs Moore and Guscott flagged it up.
We had other chances to win, penalty kicks that weren’t taken, getting too ambitious late on, but ultimately the All Blacks won because they took their chances and we did not - just as was the case in reverse against the Springboks the week before.
For me, if we’d kept Hartley on for another 10-20 mins we may well have won, but what really matters here is what we learn for Japan 2019, it hurts more, but you learn more from losing than winning
posted on 11/11/18
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 11/11/18
comment by Aristodemus (U3765)
posted 3 days, 10 hours ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=975&v=5Gwe8LFyIio
For you Show if you have 15min. Essentially a video about the issue of eligibility and who suffer and gain from them.
From an England perspective, we have 27% foreign born in our squad which is pretty middle of the road but we are also (with NZ) significantly more poached than any other nations. I won't mention who is #1
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You're doing it again mate, confusing poaching with heritage. Redo your stats after counting for the fact tgat any lad wants to impress his dad and grandad.
posted on 11/11/18
PS. Impressive performance by us yesterday. Took them on up front, focussed on their weakness, pummelled them when they had men in the bin and back to our harem-scarem best in the second half. Splendid. Joyous even.
posted on 11/11/18
Sticking by what I said, I thought it was a bull$hit call at the time and haven't changed my mind. It was split second stuff from the kiwi stepping forward and TJ lifting it. As Greenwood said if you have to spend that long checking for an offside then you shouldn't be giving it. I'd wager if you spent that long looking at every ruck in the last few minutes when we were attacking you could find at least one AB a few inches offside.
I was first to say last week that it should have been a penalty too, I like to think I'm objective on big calls.
P.S Cueto wasn't in touch!
posted on 12/11/18
Indeed Demus, life looks peachy through red rose tinted specs.
Talking of poaching, have you noticed that Gary Graham appears to have seen sense at last. I'm guessing that's from Father George playing the long game.
Page 1 of 2