One thing that I haven't seen mentioned is it may cost £50m to buy Poch out. I'm sure Ole + £50m on a transfer is a better deal.
I'm all for giving him a chance. Think it might just work out too.
comment by vidicthelegend VIVA LA REVOLUTION (U8735)
posted 1 minute ago
One thing that I haven't seen mentioned is it may cost £50m to buy Poch out. I'm sure Ole + £50m on a transfer is a better deal.
I'm all for giving him a chance. Think it might just work out too.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm of the same mind
He's ticking most of the boxes for me
We have an agreement where if we want Ole on a permanent basis we have to pay Molde around £7m.
On current form, yes, Ole is doing a good job and you can easily argue for him. He needs to continue it to be given the job on a full time basis. We should still be sounding out other candidates regardless.
I think Van Gaal and Mourinho’s ideas would’ve worked at the club 5-10 years ago, the issue was they were appointed when their methods had been outdated.
comment by Miguel Ángel Félix Gallardo (U11781)
posted 3 minutes ago
I think Van Gaal and Mourinho’s ideas would’ve worked at the club 5-10 years ago, the issue was they were appointed when their methods had been outdated.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
or at a club not used to winning playing on the front foot.
us utd fans were spoilt under SAF and consequently have high expectations of what we expect to see which for me is not a bad thing.
comment by Miguel Ángel Félix Gallardo (U11781)
posted 7 minutes ago
I think Van Gaal and Mourinho’s ideas would’ve worked at the club 5-10 years ago, the issue was they were appointed when their methods had been outdated.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not really Arab tbf mate.
lets not forget that 12 months before Jose came to united he won the PL.
and i wouldnt be shocked if he went somewhere else and had success.
he just want the right fit for Utd in any way shape or form
Perfect storms.
Solksjaer may not be the stand-out candidate on paper, but in terms of what we actually need right now, I think his profile is actually near-enough perfect.
I will caveat at that by saying that we need the correct footballing infrastructure in place. Phelan is a fantastic start, but we need a DoF who can help sign the right profile of player and have a clear strategy for bringing through emerging talent from the academy.
On the latter point, Ole himself knows the importance of blooding young talent: his mentor has been Fergie and he himself coach the reserves.
What we don't yet know about Ole is what his business in the transfer market will be like; here is where a DoF could come in handy to ensure continuity of player style & personality. We've ended up with Ole taking over a team with a mish-mash of players from Fergie, Moyes, LvG & Mourinho's era. We need to get on top of that, and quickly.
I actually advocated Ole *before* he was hired, and so far been vindicated in my hunch, so I'm already somewhat in the 'Ole In' camp. On current form, and if continued, he has to be given a proper crack.
I will be the first to say it
----------------------------------------------
You're not the first to say it. I think a lot of people feel the same way. I know I certainly do and have said as much.
There are a number of advantages to having Ole over Pochettino, some of them the OP has pointed out and one of them being what vtl said in the first comment.
To add to what vtl said, Ole will have had half a season to assess the squad properly. He should by the end of the season have a pretty clear idea on what areas need strengthening, what kind of player we need and what players don't fit in with what he wants.
If somebody new comes in, especially somebody who isn't very familiar with the PL and our squad, I fear they'd require more time to make a decision on who to keep and who to get rid of. Another thing is they might decide they want their own staff and that is something that might set us back even further because I feel like we've got a good thing going now with Phelan, McKenna and Carrick supporting Ole.
I actually advocated Ole *before* he was hired, and so far been vindicated in my hunch, so I'm already somewhat in the 'Ole In' camp. On current form, and if continued, he has to be given a proper crack.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That is impressive - much respect
I personally could not see past poch myself and was not sure we could get him.
But as soon as OGS was announced it made perfect sense why he was chosen as interim it is now starting to make sense why he could be fulltime to me
comment by vidicthelegend VIVA LA REVOLUTION (U8735)
posted 18 minutes ago
One thing that I haven't seen mentioned is it may cost £50m to buy Poch out. I'm sure Ole + £50m on a transfer is a better deal.
I'm all for giving him a chance. Think it might just work out too.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And if Ole fails, we go for Poch at a more cheaper rate.
I am still of the opinion Poch is a better choice and in fact the only choice. Ole has till May to prove otherwise. Ownership will certainly know it when they see it.
It would be nice if at the business end of the season we had something to play for (e.g a shot at top 4 or a final to play in) and the club announced he was getting the job full time to give everyone a boost
I'm certainly not in a position to comment on every mangerial candidate and their management style - not sure any of us are, but from a domestic perspective I see only Poch as an option that would favour us, if we agree that high tempo football, long term thinking and ability to coach as well as buy big are the key criteria.
Poch won't be available.
I suppose you could argue about Nuno at Wolves, but it's early days for him.
Looking abroad, I really have no idea but am not aware of any managers who fit the bill.
We don't know enough about Ole's coaching ability and tactical nous yet, but he is ticking so many boxes that he has to be taken seriously.
Long may that continue and if we're in a similar position come the end of the season then I'd be happy to see him given a go.
Good OP. We have the luxury of being able to deliberate this question for a few more months but OGS is looking promising for the exactly reasons you gave.
And the 'delegation' point is important. I think it's fair to say Fergie wasn't the world's greatest tactical innovator. But he was an excellent student of football tactics and he was ready to bring in expertise and to apply that knowledge in the calls he made. In some ways that's a strength. If you have a tactician as a manager, there's always a danger that they are wedded to their big idea and if they are dogmatic, they can find it hard to adapt with the times. You could make that observation about both Mourinho and LVG. By contrast, a smart but flexible manager can stay in place while freshening up the tactical team around him.
If Ole can make the players feel ten feet tall and proud of the club they represent, and if he can effectively get across winning tactics formulated with a little help from his friends, that's a potent combination. A interesting comparison here is Zidane - he was said to be a motivator more than a tactician. Are we now in a position to say Ole is ahead of ZZ in our pecking order? ZZ embodied the Real Madrid history and ethos, not Manchester United's.
Getting the players on side is half the battle and it seems Ole has managed this.
From a business point of view, our big players who are seen as assets, the likes of Pogba, Martial, Rashford etc have all taken their game up a notch and have praised hin in public. These guys should form the basis of our attack and these are the players who have the potential to be here for a long period of time if kept happy.
I see no logical reason why we should not give him the gig full time. As TRS said, we appear to have a close knit coaching set up and it would be a shame to break that up. Reminds me of the Fergie days where they all celebrate goals together, which is in stark contrast to Jose's miserable tone.
Poch is the only external candidate who seems appropriate for the job, but I say we continue on the path we are on.
Ole has ticked a lot of boxes for me but he still has a few tests to pass until I’m 100% confident he can take us forward.
1) How he handles losing games.
2) How he handles the team WHILE losing a game.
3) How he sets up our players against teams who press aggressively, like City, Liverpool and Barca. Please remember that Pep still has Phelan in his back pocket from those horrible CL finals. If Phelan is to be Ole’s number two, I want him to be able to demonstrate that he has evolved tactically. If we go on to buy the very best then our game plans need to be able to beat the very best. Ole seems to be following in Fergies foot steps and taking a back seat when implementing tactics and training methods. His staff have a point to prove just as much as Ole.
Difficult to know with Ole really...he was on a massive win win following the poison of jose
He's a likeable guy though...you have to say
Getting the players on side is half the battle and it seems Ole has managed this.
************************************************
This is yet to be seen. 3 situations will say alot about his player management.
1. Players like Lukaku, Sanchez, Fellaini, Mata look to not suit the new style and are on huge wages. How he handles them will be a sign.
2. When his first team players begin slacking off and he needs to make a change to give a kick up their arrrse.
3. When the kid needs to bled into the 1st team. How patient is he?
Poch has been very good at this, i'll love to see how ole does.
I think it's a bit like the old saying that you can't win the league in the first 10 games but you can lose it.
Ole can't prove he's the best man for the job this season but he can at least avoid showing that he's not.
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 1 minute ago
I think it's a bit like the old saying that you can't win the league in the first 10 games but you can lose it.
Ole can't prove he's the best man for the job this season but he can at least avoid showing that he's not.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's a bit of a stretch to regard those two CL final defeats as "on Phelan". First of all, we don't know the precise relationship between Fergie and Phelan, and how much input he had. I don't think it has been claimed anywhere that Fergie entirely outsourced his tactics - not even to Carlos Queiroz (whose role seems to have been more as a tactics specialist than Phelan's was).
Secondly, do we really put 2009 and 2011 down as above all tactical failures? We were up against one of the greatest sides ever seen, including all-time greats in Messi, Iniesta and Xavi. We came up against a team that was simply man for man better than us, more or less at the top of its game. There may have been one or two tweaks we could have made that would have mitigated that disadvantage we had over them but sometimes you have to hold your hands up and acknowledge you're up against a better team.
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 2 minutes ago
It's a bit of a stretch to regard those two CL final defeats as "on Phelan". First of all, we don't know the precise relationship between Fergie and Phelan, and how much input he had. I don't think it has been claimed anywhere that Fergie entirely outsourced his tactics - not even to Carlos Queiroz (whose role seems to have been more as a tactics specialist than Phelan's was).
Secondly, do we really put 2009 and 2011 down as above all tactical failures? We were up against one of the greatest sides ever seen, including all-time greats in Messi, Iniesta and Xavi. We came up against a team that was simply man for man better than us, more or less at the top of its game. There may have been one or two tweaks we could have made that would have mitigated that disadvantage we had over them but sometimes you have to hold your hands up and acknowledge you're up against a better team.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Also especially in 09 VDS didn't cover himself in glory (as much as I love the guy).
Some excellent comments and points on here.
I will add to RR's one below.
'And the 'delegation' point is important. I think it's fair to say Fergie wasn't the world's greatest tactical innovator. But he was an excellent student of football tactics and he was ready to bring in expertise and to apply that knowledge in the calls he made. In some ways that's a strength. If you have a tactician as a manager, there's always a danger that they are wedded to their big idea and if they are dogmatic, they can find it hard to adapt with the times. You could make that observation about both Mourinho and LVG. By contrast, a smart but flexible manager can stay in place while freshening up the tactical team around him'.
A good and successful leader in any walk of life will always have people around him where he can take advice and bounce around ideas and implement them even if they are not his own.
Those that don't will generally fail.
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 8 minutes ago
It's a bit of a stretch to regard those two CL final defeats as "on Phelan". First of all, we don't know the precise relationship between Fergie and Phelan, and how much input he had. I don't think it has been claimed anywhere that Fergie entirely outsourced his tactics - not even to Carlos Queiroz (whose role seems to have been more as a tactics specialist than Phelan's was).
Secondly, do we really put 2009 and 2011 down as above all tactical failures? We were up against one of the greatest sides ever seen, including all-time greats in Messi, Iniesta and Xavi. We came up against a team that was simply man for man better than us, more or less at the top of its game. There may have been one or two tweaks we could have made that would have mitigated that disadvantage we had over them but sometimes you have to hold your hands up and acknowledge you're up against a better team.
=
Well said.
I'd also add that we were hampered by the unavailability of particular players who might have been key to our game plan with regards to countering Barca; namely Fletcher & Hargreaves who would have provided energy, bite and work-rate in midfield. I'm not saying we'd have won with them, but we've have had a better chance.
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 1 minute ago
It's a bit of a stretch to regard those two CL final defeats as "on Phelan". First of all, we don't know the precise relationship between Fergie and Phelan, and how much input he had. I don't think it has been claimed anywhere that Fergie entirely outsourced his tactics - not even to Carlos Queiroz (whose role seems to have been more as a tactics specialist than Phelan's was).
Secondly, do we really put 2009 and 2011 down as above all tactical failures? We were up against one of the greatest sides ever seen, including all-time greats in Messi, Iniesta and Xavi. We came up against a team that was simply man for man better than us, more or less at the top of its game. There may have been one or two tweaks we could have made that would have mitigated that disadvantage we had over them but sometimes you have to hold your hands up and acknowledge you're up against a better team.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You’re right, of course it isn’t entirely on Phelan, Fergie definitely has his say but it’s also well reported that he also trusts his staff and that he takes a back seat in training. Regardless Phelan still has a big day in tactics, this I’m sure of. He has as much to prove as anyone else I my opinion.
As for those finals, I do feel they were tactical failures. Just before the second final Fergie came out and said... “We are very focused this time and our preparation has been better. I think we maybe made one or two mistakes last time but not this time."
After the 2009 final even Ronaldo came out and said "We didn't do well. The tactics were not good and everything went wrong for us. We were only in it for 10 minutes and we never found ourselves again.
We didn’t do well in possession in those game and we were way to cautious with a very deep line. Barca May have still gone on to beat us but not beat us to a pulp.
comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 3 minutes ago
Some excellent comments and points on here.
I will add to RR's one below.
'And the 'delegation' point is important. I think it's fair to say Fergie wasn't the world's greatest tactical innovator. But he was an excellent student of football tactics and he was ready to bring in expertise and to apply that knowledge in the calls he made. In some ways that's a strength. If you have a tactician as a manager, there's always a danger that they are wedded to their big idea and if they are dogmatic, they can find it hard to adapt with the times. You could make that observation about both Mourinho and LVG. By contrast, a smart but flexible manager can stay in place while freshening up the tactical team around him'.
A good and successful leader in any walk of life will always have people around him where he can take advice and bounce around ideas and implement them even if they are not his own.
Those that don't will generally fail.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
a lot of very good comments
this is parrticularly interesting to me. While OGS is a bit of an unknoown in terms of his tactical nous he does already show signs he is willing to learn/listen to others. This was the difference between SAF and others especially wenger who was so set in his ways.
Sign in if you want to comment
I will be the first to say it
Page 1 of 3
posted on 17/1/19
One thing that I haven't seen mentioned is it may cost £50m to buy Poch out. I'm sure Ole + £50m on a transfer is a better deal.
I'm all for giving him a chance. Think it might just work out too.
posted on 17/1/19
comment by vidicthelegend VIVA LA REVOLUTION (U8735)
posted 1 minute ago
One thing that I haven't seen mentioned is it may cost £50m to buy Poch out. I'm sure Ole + £50m on a transfer is a better deal.
I'm all for giving him a chance. Think it might just work out too.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm of the same mind
He's ticking most of the boxes for me
posted on 17/1/19
We have an agreement where if we want Ole on a permanent basis we have to pay Molde around £7m.
On current form, yes, Ole is doing a good job and you can easily argue for him. He needs to continue it to be given the job on a full time basis. We should still be sounding out other candidates regardless.
posted on 17/1/19
I think Van Gaal and Mourinho’s ideas would’ve worked at the club 5-10 years ago, the issue was they were appointed when their methods had been outdated.
posted on 17/1/19
comment by Miguel Ángel Félix Gallardo (U11781)
posted 3 minutes ago
I think Van Gaal and Mourinho’s ideas would’ve worked at the club 5-10 years ago, the issue was they were appointed when their methods had been outdated.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
or at a club not used to winning playing on the front foot.
us utd fans were spoilt under SAF and consequently have high expectations of what we expect to see which for me is not a bad thing.
posted on 17/1/19
comment by Miguel Ángel Félix Gallardo (U11781)
posted 7 minutes ago
I think Van Gaal and Mourinho’s ideas would’ve worked at the club 5-10 years ago, the issue was they were appointed when their methods had been outdated.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not really Arab tbf mate.
lets not forget that 12 months before Jose came to united he won the PL.
and i wouldnt be shocked if he went somewhere else and had success.
he just want the right fit for Utd in any way shape or form
posted on 17/1/19
Perfect storms.
Solksjaer may not be the stand-out candidate on paper, but in terms of what we actually need right now, I think his profile is actually near-enough perfect.
I will caveat at that by saying that we need the correct footballing infrastructure in place. Phelan is a fantastic start, but we need a DoF who can help sign the right profile of player and have a clear strategy for bringing through emerging talent from the academy.
On the latter point, Ole himself knows the importance of blooding young talent: his mentor has been Fergie and he himself coach the reserves.
What we don't yet know about Ole is what his business in the transfer market will be like; here is where a DoF could come in handy to ensure continuity of player style & personality. We've ended up with Ole taking over a team with a mish-mash of players from Fergie, Moyes, LvG & Mourinho's era. We need to get on top of that, and quickly.
I actually advocated Ole *before* he was hired, and so far been vindicated in my hunch, so I'm already somewhat in the 'Ole In' camp. On current form, and if continued, he has to be given a proper crack.
posted on 17/1/19
I will be the first to say it
----------------------------------------------
You're not the first to say it. I think a lot of people feel the same way. I know I certainly do and have said as much.
There are a number of advantages to having Ole over Pochettino, some of them the OP has pointed out and one of them being what vtl said in the first comment.
To add to what vtl said, Ole will have had half a season to assess the squad properly. He should by the end of the season have a pretty clear idea on what areas need strengthening, what kind of player we need and what players don't fit in with what he wants.
If somebody new comes in, especially somebody who isn't very familiar with the PL and our squad, I fear they'd require more time to make a decision on who to keep and who to get rid of. Another thing is they might decide they want their own staff and that is something that might set us back even further because I feel like we've got a good thing going now with Phelan, McKenna and Carrick supporting Ole.
posted on 17/1/19
I actually advocated Ole *before* he was hired, and so far been vindicated in my hunch, so I'm already somewhat in the 'Ole In' camp. On current form, and if continued, he has to be given a proper crack.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That is impressive - much respect
I personally could not see past poch myself and was not sure we could get him.
But as soon as OGS was announced it made perfect sense why he was chosen as interim it is now starting to make sense why he could be fulltime to me
posted on 17/1/19
comment by vidicthelegend VIVA LA REVOLUTION (U8735)
posted 18 minutes ago
One thing that I haven't seen mentioned is it may cost £50m to buy Poch out. I'm sure Ole + £50m on a transfer is a better deal.
I'm all for giving him a chance. Think it might just work out too.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And if Ole fails, we go for Poch at a more cheaper rate.
I am still of the opinion Poch is a better choice and in fact the only choice. Ole has till May to prove otherwise. Ownership will certainly know it when they see it.
posted on 17/1/19
It would be nice if at the business end of the season we had something to play for (e.g a shot at top 4 or a final to play in) and the club announced he was getting the job full time to give everyone a boost
posted on 17/1/19
I'm certainly not in a position to comment on every mangerial candidate and their management style - not sure any of us are, but from a domestic perspective I see only Poch as an option that would favour us, if we agree that high tempo football, long term thinking and ability to coach as well as buy big are the key criteria.
Poch won't be available.
I suppose you could argue about Nuno at Wolves, but it's early days for him.
Looking abroad, I really have no idea but am not aware of any managers who fit the bill.
We don't know enough about Ole's coaching ability and tactical nous yet, but he is ticking so many boxes that he has to be taken seriously.
Long may that continue and if we're in a similar position come the end of the season then I'd be happy to see him given a go.
posted on 17/1/19
Good OP. We have the luxury of being able to deliberate this question for a few more months but OGS is looking promising for the exactly reasons you gave.
And the 'delegation' point is important. I think it's fair to say Fergie wasn't the world's greatest tactical innovator. But he was an excellent student of football tactics and he was ready to bring in expertise and to apply that knowledge in the calls he made. In some ways that's a strength. If you have a tactician as a manager, there's always a danger that they are wedded to their big idea and if they are dogmatic, they can find it hard to adapt with the times. You could make that observation about both Mourinho and LVG. By contrast, a smart but flexible manager can stay in place while freshening up the tactical team around him.
If Ole can make the players feel ten feet tall and proud of the club they represent, and if he can effectively get across winning tactics formulated with a little help from his friends, that's a potent combination. A interesting comparison here is Zidane - he was said to be a motivator more than a tactician. Are we now in a position to say Ole is ahead of ZZ in our pecking order? ZZ embodied the Real Madrid history and ethos, not Manchester United's.
posted on 17/1/19
Getting the players on side is half the battle and it seems Ole has managed this.
From a business point of view, our big players who are seen as assets, the likes of Pogba, Martial, Rashford etc have all taken their game up a notch and have praised hin in public. These guys should form the basis of our attack and these are the players who have the potential to be here for a long period of time if kept happy.
I see no logical reason why we should not give him the gig full time. As TRS said, we appear to have a close knit coaching set up and it would be a shame to break that up. Reminds me of the Fergie days where they all celebrate goals together, which is in stark contrast to Jose's miserable tone.
Poch is the only external candidate who seems appropriate for the job, but I say we continue on the path we are on.
posted on 17/1/19
Ole has ticked a lot of boxes for me but he still has a few tests to pass until I’m 100% confident he can take us forward.
1) How he handles losing games.
2) How he handles the team WHILE losing a game.
3) How he sets up our players against teams who press aggressively, like City, Liverpool and Barca. Please remember that Pep still has Phelan in his back pocket from those horrible CL finals. If Phelan is to be Ole’s number two, I want him to be able to demonstrate that he has evolved tactically. If we go on to buy the very best then our game plans need to be able to beat the very best. Ole seems to be following in Fergies foot steps and taking a back seat when implementing tactics and training methods. His staff have a point to prove just as much as Ole.
posted on 17/1/19
Difficult to know with Ole really...he was on a massive win win following the poison of jose
He's a likeable guy though...you have to say
posted on 17/1/19
Getting the players on side is half the battle and it seems Ole has managed this.
************************************************
This is yet to be seen. 3 situations will say alot about his player management.
1. Players like Lukaku, Sanchez, Fellaini, Mata look to not suit the new style and are on huge wages. How he handles them will be a sign.
2. When his first team players begin slacking off and he needs to make a change to give a kick up their arrrse.
3. When the kid needs to bled into the 1st team. How patient is he?
Poch has been very good at this, i'll love to see how ole does.
posted on 17/1/19
I think it's a bit like the old saying that you can't win the league in the first 10 games but you can lose it.
Ole can't prove he's the best man for the job this season but he can at least avoid showing that he's not.
posted on 17/1/19
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 1 minute ago
I think it's a bit like the old saying that you can't win the league in the first 10 games but you can lose it.
Ole can't prove he's the best man for the job this season but he can at least avoid showing that he's not.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
posted on 17/1/19
It's a bit of a stretch to regard those two CL final defeats as "on Phelan". First of all, we don't know the precise relationship between Fergie and Phelan, and how much input he had. I don't think it has been claimed anywhere that Fergie entirely outsourced his tactics - not even to Carlos Queiroz (whose role seems to have been more as a tactics specialist than Phelan's was).
Secondly, do we really put 2009 and 2011 down as above all tactical failures? We were up against one of the greatest sides ever seen, including all-time greats in Messi, Iniesta and Xavi. We came up against a team that was simply man for man better than us, more or less at the top of its game. There may have been one or two tweaks we could have made that would have mitigated that disadvantage we had over them but sometimes you have to hold your hands up and acknowledge you're up against a better team.
posted on 17/1/19
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 2 minutes ago
It's a bit of a stretch to regard those two CL final defeats as "on Phelan". First of all, we don't know the precise relationship between Fergie and Phelan, and how much input he had. I don't think it has been claimed anywhere that Fergie entirely outsourced his tactics - not even to Carlos Queiroz (whose role seems to have been more as a tactics specialist than Phelan's was).
Secondly, do we really put 2009 and 2011 down as above all tactical failures? We were up against one of the greatest sides ever seen, including all-time greats in Messi, Iniesta and Xavi. We came up against a team that was simply man for man better than us, more or less at the top of its game. There may have been one or two tweaks we could have made that would have mitigated that disadvantage we had over them but sometimes you have to hold your hands up and acknowledge you're up against a better team.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Also especially in 09 VDS didn't cover himself in glory (as much as I love the guy).
posted on 17/1/19
Some excellent comments and points on here.
I will add to RR's one below.
'And the 'delegation' point is important. I think it's fair to say Fergie wasn't the world's greatest tactical innovator. But he was an excellent student of football tactics and he was ready to bring in expertise and to apply that knowledge in the calls he made. In some ways that's a strength. If you have a tactician as a manager, there's always a danger that they are wedded to their big idea and if they are dogmatic, they can find it hard to adapt with the times. You could make that observation about both Mourinho and LVG. By contrast, a smart but flexible manager can stay in place while freshening up the tactical team around him'.
A good and successful leader in any walk of life will always have people around him where he can take advice and bounce around ideas and implement them even if they are not his own.
Those that don't will generally fail.
posted on 17/1/19
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 8 minutes ago
It's a bit of a stretch to regard those two CL final defeats as "on Phelan". First of all, we don't know the precise relationship between Fergie and Phelan, and how much input he had. I don't think it has been claimed anywhere that Fergie entirely outsourced his tactics - not even to Carlos Queiroz (whose role seems to have been more as a tactics specialist than Phelan's was).
Secondly, do we really put 2009 and 2011 down as above all tactical failures? We were up against one of the greatest sides ever seen, including all-time greats in Messi, Iniesta and Xavi. We came up against a team that was simply man for man better than us, more or less at the top of its game. There may have been one or two tweaks we could have made that would have mitigated that disadvantage we had over them but sometimes you have to hold your hands up and acknowledge you're up against a better team.
=
Well said.
I'd also add that we were hampered by the unavailability of particular players who might have been key to our game plan with regards to countering Barca; namely Fletcher & Hargreaves who would have provided energy, bite and work-rate in midfield. I'm not saying we'd have won with them, but we've have had a better chance.
posted on 17/1/19
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 1 minute ago
It's a bit of a stretch to regard those two CL final defeats as "on Phelan". First of all, we don't know the precise relationship between Fergie and Phelan, and how much input he had. I don't think it has been claimed anywhere that Fergie entirely outsourced his tactics - not even to Carlos Queiroz (whose role seems to have been more as a tactics specialist than Phelan's was).
Secondly, do we really put 2009 and 2011 down as above all tactical failures? We were up against one of the greatest sides ever seen, including all-time greats in Messi, Iniesta and Xavi. We came up against a team that was simply man for man better than us, more or less at the top of its game. There may have been one or two tweaks we could have made that would have mitigated that disadvantage we had over them but sometimes you have to hold your hands up and acknowledge you're up against a better team.
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You’re right, of course it isn’t entirely on Phelan, Fergie definitely has his say but it’s also well reported that he also trusts his staff and that he takes a back seat in training. Regardless Phelan still has a big day in tactics, this I’m sure of. He has as much to prove as anyone else I my opinion.
As for those finals, I do feel they were tactical failures. Just before the second final Fergie came out and said... “We are very focused this time and our preparation has been better. I think we maybe made one or two mistakes last time but not this time."
After the 2009 final even Ronaldo came out and said "We didn't do well. The tactics were not good and everything went wrong for us. We were only in it for 10 minutes and we never found ourselves again.
We didn’t do well in possession in those game and we were way to cautious with a very deep line. Barca May have still gone on to beat us but not beat us to a pulp.
posted on 17/1/19
comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 3 minutes ago
Some excellent comments and points on here.
I will add to RR's one below.
'And the 'delegation' point is important. I think it's fair to say Fergie wasn't the world's greatest tactical innovator. But he was an excellent student of football tactics and he was ready to bring in expertise and to apply that knowledge in the calls he made. In some ways that's a strength. If you have a tactician as a manager, there's always a danger that they are wedded to their big idea and if they are dogmatic, they can find it hard to adapt with the times. You could make that observation about both Mourinho and LVG. By contrast, a smart but flexible manager can stay in place while freshening up the tactical team around him'.
A good and successful leader in any walk of life will always have people around him where he can take advice and bounce around ideas and implement them even if they are not his own.
Those that don't will generally fail.
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a lot of very good comments
this is parrticularly interesting to me. While OGS is a bit of an unknoown in terms of his tactical nous he does already show signs he is willing to learn/listen to others. This was the difference between SAF and others especially wenger who was so set in his ways.
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