Just to touch on the Newcastle game - I actually thought it was a good, controlled performance against a stubborn defence. There was absolutely a difference to what we saw under Jose.
Fatigue is a definite issue though. And it's why I think we may start to falter over the next few weeks, as we will have to start to rotate as the double gameweeks start. Im unsure whether Sanchez, Mata and Lukaku can come in and offer anything like what our current front line do. And we are also quite short in depth in central midfield. Don't think we have anyone else who can do the job of Herrera and Pogba.
I share the view of prem though. Our approach to games has definitely been refreshing, but it was always going to be a long term project and there's of course still a lot of work to be done.
comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 9 seconds ago
If I was going to have a go at Ole just a little bit I would say Mata for Lingard was a wrong move and maybe it should have been Sanchez.
But then maybe he didn't want to risk Sanchez injuring himself after a spell out.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think I would've pulled Martial and Lingard, brought on Sanchez and a central midfielder, and gone to a Leicester-style narrow 4-4-1-1.
We had quite a lot of tired-looking forwards out there yesterday, which given the work they've been putting in in the press - something they're really not used to - shouldn't really be surprising. Rashford, Herrera and Lingard in particular have had to work themselves into the ground under the new system. Those three are really bearing the brunt of the work.
comment by rosso is facking happy (U17054)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 9 seconds ago
If I was going to have a go at Ole just a little bit I would say Mata for Lingard was a wrong move and maybe it should have been Sanchez.
But then maybe he didn't want to risk Sanchez injuring himself after a spell out.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think I would've pulled Martial and Lingard, brought on Sanchez and a central midfielder, and gone to a Leicester-style narrow 4-4-1-1.
We had quite a lot of tired-looking forwards out there yesterday, which given the work they've been putting in in the press - something they're really not used to - shouldn't really be surprising. Rashford, Herrera and Lingard in particular have had to work themselves into the ground under the new system. Those three are really bearing the brunt of the work.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree with this. An extra Midfielder is definitely the move at the 70 minute.
Either Perriera for more possession or a tackler (really don't mind mctominay coming in and kicking people there)
The attack for me has no sub that can sustain the potency of the Lingard Rashford Martial combo. A new forward or Chong stepping up is as important as a new defender.
On any other day we'd have been out of sight by the time Brighton scored. Against what has been a stubborn PL defence we created enough chances to be 3 or 4 up by the hour. Brighton scored with probably their only threat in the second half but we saw the game out pretty comfortably I thought.
As for fitness well you could say it's an issue but at least we're trying to navigate this by making sure (or trying to make sure) that the game is won early on. Perhaps the extra games we'll be having over the next few weeks will actually be of benefit as it means we'll use our squad and get them sharper.
The stats say we created 17 chances yesterday, under Jose I’d hedge we probably created about half of that in these type of games. Even last season we had to rely on a deflected Young goal to beat Brighton. It was a drab game from what I remember.
comment by Redastomatoes- Feels very Moyesian...cleverson forever!If he is good enough he is ready! (U12026)
posted 5 hours, 20 minutes ago
comment by merrysupersteve - Jose'd he wouldn't be our Special One? (U1132)
posted 2 hours, 44 minutes ago
And poor fitness is a great excuse.
But do you believe that?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Um yes. This team did the least running in the league each of the three years under Jose. I think we are up to 6th under Ole.
Secondly, Matic is still slowing down the midfield and will need replacing as soon as we can.
And we do not have the subs to maintain the tempo we play. Bring in Mata, bring in Lukaku and the game changes immediately.
And anyone comparing the last 2 games to under Jose is mental.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred would be a good option to bring on for energy but he lacks discipline in possession.
Herrera could drop back and we take Matic off and play Fred and Pogba ahead of Herrera
I'd quite like to see Fred against Arsenal with Herrera dropping back. Matic plays a lot of games so he could do with the break. Arsenal are also pretty open at home so Fred, if he plays well, could be a key player with his willingness to carry the ball and play the ball forward.
comment by merrysupersteve - Jose'd he wouldn't be our Special One? (U1132)
posted 53 minutes ago
Sorry, I'm not going with the narrative. I named those games because I thought we were no better in those games than we were under Jose, performance wise, nor effort wise.
Never worry though, I was wrong and we've actually been playing well and it's not at all similar to under Jose
==============
So performance wise we've not only won all of those games, but looked a much bigger threat going forwards and have scored more goals, more consistently, than previously. I'm not sure on the specific chance-making stats, but I'd be willing to bet we've made a lot more chances under Ole than Mourinho.
Effort-wise we've gone from being the team that runs the least to being in and around the top 5.
None of your two main claims are supportable.
Yes, we didn't see the game out yesterday as comfortably as we might. I thought Rashford was excellent, but towards the end of the game made some poor choices (attempting to dribble or shoot rather than retain possession). Some of the players looked very leggy by the end (understandable given the extra running the players are now doing), and I didn't think Ole's subs were quite right.
But to say the players are 'lazy', repeatedly, is I'm afraid... lazy (and again, not supported by any of the evidence).
Fred hasn't had a good start by any means, but he's shown flashes that suggest he could become a good player for us. This time last year Lindelof looked like a bit of a liability and now he's (deservedly) considered our best CB by many. Hopefully Fred can progress over time too
Fred doesn't seem to have a understanding with the others in the side. He presses too high up and likes to make runs forwards. With our DM being slow and our defence a shambles, that does leave our team exposed.
comment by merrysupersteve - Jose'd he wouldn't be our Special One? (U1132)
posted 2 hours, 39 minutes ago
But would you agree that we made a comfortable situation a debacle yesterday, and that is something that is more a mental (lazy imo) than anything? The lack of fitness is unforgivable imo, but again, I'd put that on the players as much, of not moreso, than the coaches. There aren't children and should be well aware of what it takes to be fit. It's literally their job
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is booollocks, to be honest. If your training sessions and the way you play in matches doesn’t condition your squad to play at a high intensity of course it’s the fault of the coaches.
Pochettino went into Spurs and started doing double training sessions. Had his team playing at a high intensity in each game. And it took a while for his team to see the fruits of their labour when it came to the condition of the squad.
I said to TRS last week that the fitness of this team will start to show up in games and we’ll keep seeing drop offs late in games, and people will start to criticise the coach and the players for this and how we will start to see out games.
Only took a week to prove my point.
I've been criticising the players for a long time in terms of doing the bare minimum, under multiple managers. Feel free to give yourself a pat on the back but if we'd produced the string of performances that we've produced under Ole in 2019, I wonder if it would just be due to tiredness?
As for the claims that our running stats are in the top 5 in the league since Ole came in, I'd like to see stats to back that up. And I know from watching our last 5 games that we aren't creating any more chances than under Jose. Statistics would back that up I'm sure. Again feel free to provide a link
comment by merrysupersteve - Jose'd he wouldn't be our Special One? (U1132)
posted 23 minutes ago
I've been criticising the players for a long time in terms of doing the bare minimum, under multiple managers. Feel free to give yourself a pat on the back but if we'd produced the string of performances that we've produced under Ole in 2019, I wonder if it would just be due to tiredness?
As for the claims that our running stats are in the top 5 in the league since Ole came in, I'd like to see stats to back that up. And I know from watching our last 5 games that we aren't creating any more chances than under Jose. Statistics would back that up I'm sure. Again feel free to provide a link
=============
Ok...
1) https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-6544183/How-stats-Ole-Gunnar-Solskjaer-improved-Manchester-United.html
2) https://www.planetfootball.com/quick-reads/manchester-united-firsts-under-ole-gunnar-solskjaer/
(This has some individual player stats which are quite telling)
3) Distance covered under Mourinho: https://www.premierleague.com/news/510837
https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/man-utd-news-stats-arsenal-15495673
4) "Consider the tracking data that shows the distance covered by the players and the number of high-intensity sprints that they make. It has been startlingly low all season under Mourinho.
United were outrun by their opponents in 16 of their first 17 Premier League games this season with the only exception being the 160 extra metres that they covered against Fulham. This was very different. By half-time, United had outrun Cardiff by more than two kilometres. By the final whistle, the gulf was more than five kilometres. Astonishing.
As for sprints, United had made fewer of those than their opponents in 15 of the previous 17 games this season. This time they made 119 sprints to Cardiff's 99. Again, it is a difference that tells a tale."
https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11667/11589528/manchester-united-thrash-cardiff-in-ole-gunnar-solskjaer8217s-first-game
comment by merrysupersteve - Jose'd he wouldn't be our Special One? (U1132)
posted 1 hour, 13 minutes ago
I've been criticising the players for a long time in terms of doing the bare minimum, under multiple managers. Feel free to give yourself a pat on the back but if we'd produced the string of performances that we've produced under Ole in 2019, I wonder if it would just be due to tiredness?
As for the claims that our running stats are in the top 5 in the league since Ole came in, I'd like to see stats to back that up. And I know from watching our last 5 games that we aren't creating any more chances than under Jose. Statistics would back that up I'm sure. Again feel free to provide a link
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Are you ok??? You needed statistics to show you we are attacking more effectively??
You have a issues. Serious ones.
No need to get personal lad. But yes, I think statistics would back up what I have seen - that we haven't played at all well since the turn of the year. Have you watched the games? Have you enjoyed our football? Which has been your favourite? There are obviously plenty of highlights from recent games....
Even when I did ask for links, the ones that were provided were to the first 3 games, against the 3 most out of form teams in the league and before the 5 games we've played in 2019...
comment by merrysupersteve - Jose'd he wouldn't be our Special One? (U1132)
posted 2 hours, 47 minutes ago
No need to get personal lad. But yes, I think statistics would back up what I have seen - that we haven't played at all well since the turn of the year. Have you watched the games? Have you enjoyed our football? Which has been your favourite? There are obviously plenty of highlights from recent games....
Even when I did ask for links, the ones that were provided were to the first 3 games, against the 3 most out of form teams in the league and before the 5 games we've played in 2019...
===============
Only because with a 5-10 minute search, I'm unable to actually find any relevant data on the most recent games. I'm sure it's available somewhere, but I couldn't find it unfortunately.
If you think we've been no better in the last 3 games I can't help you. The first half against Spurs was a top performance (and we had a couple of excellent chances in the second half, too), and we look much more threatening and meaningful going forward. There's some frailty in defence, and clearly some fatigue later on in games, but personally I've much preferred watching us since Ole took over, including the last few games.
Highlights would be the Spurs first half definitely, some of the play in the first half against Brighton (the link up and finish for Rashford's goal was excellent) and the general manner of our attacking play.
We aren't going to stick 4 past the opposition every weekend. Football doesn't work like that. Sometimes we're going to grind past a team 2-0 or 2-1. That happened plenty under Fergie. It happened constantly under Mourinho.
So far under Ole we've seen some brilliant attacking stuff with plenty of goals, and we've seen some good stuff against stubborn teams where we've still done more than enough to win the games that weeks before we would have drawn or lost.
Sign in if you want to comment
So that’s two games in a row
Page 3 of 3
posted on 20/1/19
Just to touch on the Newcastle game - I actually thought it was a good, controlled performance against a stubborn defence. There was absolutely a difference to what we saw under Jose.
Fatigue is a definite issue though. And it's why I think we may start to falter over the next few weeks, as we will have to start to rotate as the double gameweeks start. Im unsure whether Sanchez, Mata and Lukaku can come in and offer anything like what our current front line do. And we are also quite short in depth in central midfield. Don't think we have anyone else who can do the job of Herrera and Pogba.
I share the view of prem though. Our approach to games has definitely been refreshing, but it was always going to be a long term project and there's of course still a lot of work to be done.
posted on 20/1/19
comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 9 seconds ago
If I was going to have a go at Ole just a little bit I would say Mata for Lingard was a wrong move and maybe it should have been Sanchez.
But then maybe he didn't want to risk Sanchez injuring himself after a spell out.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think I would've pulled Martial and Lingard, brought on Sanchez and a central midfielder, and gone to a Leicester-style narrow 4-4-1-1.
We had quite a lot of tired-looking forwards out there yesterday, which given the work they've been putting in in the press - something they're really not used to - shouldn't really be surprising. Rashford, Herrera and Lingard in particular have had to work themselves into the ground under the new system. Those three are really bearing the brunt of the work.
posted on 20/1/19
comment by rosso is facking happy (U17054)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 9 seconds ago
If I was going to have a go at Ole just a little bit I would say Mata for Lingard was a wrong move and maybe it should have been Sanchez.
But then maybe he didn't want to risk Sanchez injuring himself after a spell out.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think I would've pulled Martial and Lingard, brought on Sanchez and a central midfielder, and gone to a Leicester-style narrow 4-4-1-1.
We had quite a lot of tired-looking forwards out there yesterday, which given the work they've been putting in in the press - something they're really not used to - shouldn't really be surprising. Rashford, Herrera and Lingard in particular have had to work themselves into the ground under the new system. Those three are really bearing the brunt of the work.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree with this. An extra Midfielder is definitely the move at the 70 minute.
Either Perriera for more possession or a tackler (really don't mind mctominay coming in and kicking people there)
The attack for me has no sub that can sustain the potency of the Lingard Rashford Martial combo. A new forward or Chong stepping up is as important as a new defender.
posted on 20/1/19
On any other day we'd have been out of sight by the time Brighton scored. Against what has been a stubborn PL defence we created enough chances to be 3 or 4 up by the hour. Brighton scored with probably their only threat in the second half but we saw the game out pretty comfortably I thought.
As for fitness well you could say it's an issue but at least we're trying to navigate this by making sure (or trying to make sure) that the game is won early on. Perhaps the extra games we'll be having over the next few weeks will actually be of benefit as it means we'll use our squad and get them sharper.
posted on 20/1/19
The stats say we created 17 chances yesterday, under Jose I’d hedge we probably created about half of that in these type of games. Even last season we had to rely on a deflected Young goal to beat Brighton. It was a drab game from what I remember.
posted on 20/1/19
comment by Redastomatoes- Feels very Moyesian...cleverson forever!If he is good enough he is ready! (U12026)
posted 5 hours, 20 minutes ago
comment by merrysupersteve - Jose'd he wouldn't be our Special One? (U1132)
posted 2 hours, 44 minutes ago
And poor fitness is a great excuse.
But do you believe that?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Um yes. This team did the least running in the league each of the three years under Jose. I think we are up to 6th under Ole.
Secondly, Matic is still slowing down the midfield and will need replacing as soon as we can.
And we do not have the subs to maintain the tempo we play. Bring in Mata, bring in Lukaku and the game changes immediately.
And anyone comparing the last 2 games to under Jose is mental.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred would be a good option to bring on for energy but he lacks discipline in possession.
Herrera could drop back and we take Matic off and play Fred and Pogba ahead of Herrera
posted on 20/1/19
I'd quite like to see Fred against Arsenal with Herrera dropping back. Matic plays a lot of games so he could do with the break. Arsenal are also pretty open at home so Fred, if he plays well, could be a key player with his willingness to carry the ball and play the ball forward.
posted on 20/1/19
comment by merrysupersteve - Jose'd he wouldn't be our Special One? (U1132)
posted 53 minutes ago
Sorry, I'm not going with the narrative. I named those games because I thought we were no better in those games than we were under Jose, performance wise, nor effort wise.
Never worry though, I was wrong and we've actually been playing well and it's not at all similar to under Jose
==============
So performance wise we've not only won all of those games, but looked a much bigger threat going forwards and have scored more goals, more consistently, than previously. I'm not sure on the specific chance-making stats, but I'd be willing to bet we've made a lot more chances under Ole than Mourinho.
Effort-wise we've gone from being the team that runs the least to being in and around the top 5.
None of your two main claims are supportable.
Yes, we didn't see the game out yesterday as comfortably as we might. I thought Rashford was excellent, but towards the end of the game made some poor choices (attempting to dribble or shoot rather than retain possession). Some of the players looked very leggy by the end (understandable given the extra running the players are now doing), and I didn't think Ole's subs were quite right.
But to say the players are 'lazy', repeatedly, is I'm afraid... lazy (and again, not supported by any of the evidence).
posted on 20/1/19
Fred hasn't had a good start by any means, but he's shown flashes that suggest he could become a good player for us. This time last year Lindelof looked like a bit of a liability and now he's (deservedly) considered our best CB by many. Hopefully Fred can progress over time too
posted on 20/1/19
Fred doesn't seem to have a understanding with the others in the side. He presses too high up and likes to make runs forwards. With our DM being slow and our defence a shambles, that does leave our team exposed.
posted on 20/1/19
comment by merrysupersteve - Jose'd he wouldn't be our Special One? (U1132)
posted 2 hours, 39 minutes ago
But would you agree that we made a comfortable situation a debacle yesterday, and that is something that is more a mental (lazy imo) than anything? The lack of fitness is unforgivable imo, but again, I'd put that on the players as much, of not moreso, than the coaches. There aren't children and should be well aware of what it takes to be fit. It's literally their job
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is booollocks, to be honest. If your training sessions and the way you play in matches doesn’t condition your squad to play at a high intensity of course it’s the fault of the coaches.
Pochettino went into Spurs and started doing double training sessions. Had his team playing at a high intensity in each game. And it took a while for his team to see the fruits of their labour when it came to the condition of the squad.
I said to TRS last week that the fitness of this team will start to show up in games and we’ll keep seeing drop offs late in games, and people will start to criticise the coach and the players for this and how we will start to see out games.
Only took a week to prove my point.
posted on 20/1/19
I've been criticising the players for a long time in terms of doing the bare minimum, under multiple managers. Feel free to give yourself a pat on the back but if we'd produced the string of performances that we've produced under Ole in 2019, I wonder if it would just be due to tiredness?
As for the claims that our running stats are in the top 5 in the league since Ole came in, I'd like to see stats to back that up. And I know from watching our last 5 games that we aren't creating any more chances than under Jose. Statistics would back that up I'm sure. Again feel free to provide a link
posted on 20/1/19
comment by merrysupersteve - Jose'd he wouldn't be our Special One? (U1132)
posted 23 minutes ago
I've been criticising the players for a long time in terms of doing the bare minimum, under multiple managers. Feel free to give yourself a pat on the back but if we'd produced the string of performances that we've produced under Ole in 2019, I wonder if it would just be due to tiredness?
As for the claims that our running stats are in the top 5 in the league since Ole came in, I'd like to see stats to back that up. And I know from watching our last 5 games that we aren't creating any more chances than under Jose. Statistics would back that up I'm sure. Again feel free to provide a link
=============
Ok...
1) https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-6544183/How-stats-Ole-Gunnar-Solskjaer-improved-Manchester-United.html
2) https://www.planetfootball.com/quick-reads/manchester-united-firsts-under-ole-gunnar-solskjaer/
(This has some individual player stats which are quite telling)
3) Distance covered under Mourinho: https://www.premierleague.com/news/510837
https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/man-utd-news-stats-arsenal-15495673
4) "Consider the tracking data that shows the distance covered by the players and the number of high-intensity sprints that they make. It has been startlingly low all season under Mourinho.
United were outrun by their opponents in 16 of their first 17 Premier League games this season with the only exception being the 160 extra metres that they covered against Fulham. This was very different. By half-time, United had outrun Cardiff by more than two kilometres. By the final whistle, the gulf was more than five kilometres. Astonishing.
As for sprints, United had made fewer of those than their opponents in 15 of the previous 17 games this season. This time they made 119 sprints to Cardiff's 99. Again, it is a difference that tells a tale."
https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11667/11589528/manchester-united-thrash-cardiff-in-ole-gunnar-solskjaer8217s-first-game
posted on 20/1/19
comment by merrysupersteve - Jose'd he wouldn't be our Special One? (U1132)
posted 1 hour, 13 minutes ago
I've been criticising the players for a long time in terms of doing the bare minimum, under multiple managers. Feel free to give yourself a pat on the back but if we'd produced the string of performances that we've produced under Ole in 2019, I wonder if it would just be due to tiredness?
As for the claims that our running stats are in the top 5 in the league since Ole came in, I'd like to see stats to back that up. And I know from watching our last 5 games that we aren't creating any more chances than under Jose. Statistics would back that up I'm sure. Again feel free to provide a link
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Are you ok??? You needed statistics to show you we are attacking more effectively??
You have a issues. Serious ones.
posted on 20/1/19
No need to get personal lad. But yes, I think statistics would back up what I have seen - that we haven't played at all well since the turn of the year. Have you watched the games? Have you enjoyed our football? Which has been your favourite? There are obviously plenty of highlights from recent games....
Even when I did ask for links, the ones that were provided were to the first 3 games, against the 3 most out of form teams in the league and before the 5 games we've played in 2019...
posted on 20/1/19
comment by merrysupersteve - Jose'd he wouldn't be our Special One? (U1132)
posted 2 hours, 47 minutes ago
No need to get personal lad. But yes, I think statistics would back up what I have seen - that we haven't played at all well since the turn of the year. Have you watched the games? Have you enjoyed our football? Which has been your favourite? There are obviously plenty of highlights from recent games....
Even when I did ask for links, the ones that were provided were to the first 3 games, against the 3 most out of form teams in the league and before the 5 games we've played in 2019...
===============
Only because with a 5-10 minute search, I'm unable to actually find any relevant data on the most recent games. I'm sure it's available somewhere, but I couldn't find it unfortunately.
If you think we've been no better in the last 3 games I can't help you. The first half against Spurs was a top performance (and we had a couple of excellent chances in the second half, too), and we look much more threatening and meaningful going forward. There's some frailty in defence, and clearly some fatigue later on in games, but personally I've much preferred watching us since Ole took over, including the last few games.
Highlights would be the Spurs first half definitely, some of the play in the first half against Brighton (the link up and finish for Rashford's goal was excellent) and the general manner of our attacking play.
We aren't going to stick 4 past the opposition every weekend. Football doesn't work like that. Sometimes we're going to grind past a team 2-0 or 2-1. That happened plenty under Fergie. It happened constantly under Mourinho.
So far under Ole we've seen some brilliant attacking stuff with plenty of goals, and we've seen some good stuff against stubborn teams where we've still done more than enough to win the games that weeks before we would have drawn or lost.
Page 3 of 3