Blanc is also a bit controversial. He didn't have the best of start and came to us at the end of his career.
The Best player to ever wear our red jersey was Irish, there's only one Ireland, that's where us Irish folk come from.
https://giphy.com/gifs/summer-steam-sale-ieYEXYIlKFMCk?utm_source=media-link&utm_medium=landing&utm_campaign=Media%20Links&utm_term=https://cn.bing.com/
Se85
And I’ll keep doing it as it’s ridiculous and bordering on racist you belllend. As someone of mixed race I find the idea that an entire continent of people can be labelled the same, lazy completely absurd.
comment by manutd1982 (U6633)
posted 41 minutes ago
Se85
And I’ll keep doing it as it’s ridiculous and bordering on racist you belllend. As someone of mixed race I find the idea that an entire continent of people can be labelled the same, lazy completely absurd.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not in the slightest bit racist. I consider myself liberal and I voted remain.
The fact they are from S America itself isn't the issue. It's more we don't seem to have a good track record. And we don't.
You cant honestly tell me that it's just as easy moving from France as it is from Brazil or Argentina. Most of our European imports learn or already speak English much better for example.
There's logic behind it but you just don't want to hear it.
It's simply a far bigger culture shock than say coming from Amsterdam, Madrid, Paris etc.
Rojo still hardly speaks English. Valencia doesn't even after 10 years. He refuses to be interviewed in English.
comment by Elvis (U7425)
posted 8 hours, 54 minutes ago
Successful South Americans we have had Heinze, Valencia, Rafael and Tevez. Veron I think would have been a success if there was place in the team for him. But SAF was never going to play him over scholes. Pointless signing
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Heinze was decent for a while. Then fell out with Fergie and asked to join Rafa's Liverpool. So for me that's a big no no.
Tevez was good for first year and then awful second. He then went to City. Another big no no.
Rafael was good ish for us but got a lot of injuries.
Valencia had a few good years but has had far more bad ones. Been very very very lucky to play for us as many times as he's had. And to be captain too despite failing to grasp English in 10 years is baffling.
The track record we have is appalling. Even our more successful ones (above) have done the dirty on us.
comment by Eric_the_king (SE85) (U21241)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Elvis (U7425)
posted 8 hours, 54 minutes ago
Successful South Americans we have had Heinze, Valencia, Rafael and Tevez. Veron I think would have been a success if there was place in the team for him. But SAF was never going to play him over scholes. Pointless signing
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Heinze was decent for a while. Then fell out with Fergie and asked to join Rafa's Liverpool. So for me that's a big no no.
Tevez was good for first year and then awful second. He then went to City. Another big no no.
Rafael was good ish for us but got a lot of injuries.
Valencia had a few good years but has had far more bad ones. Been very very very lucky to play for us as many times as he's had. And to be captain too despite failing to grasp English in 10 years is baffling.
The track record we have is appalling. Even our more successful ones (above) have done the dirty on us.
--------------------------
You have a very selective way of looking at things.
Heinze was a good player and did well for us when he played. The reason that he won our POTY in the only season he was a first team regular. By the time he returned from injury when he missed the 05/06 campaign, Evra had arrived and become first choice LB. He came back in into the team the following season, usually at CB due to injuries, and we won the title. SAF even made him captain the last few games of the season. Ultimately he wanted to leave as he wanted regular football, which is fair enough. He ended up at Real Madrid. Not the kind of move you make if you haven't been playing well.
Tevez was similar. He had a great first season, then SAF bought Berbatov and Tezev was eased out of the team.
Rafael I thought was a good RB, whose attitude was not in question. Yes he had injury problems, but players of any nationality can have injuries.
Valencia has been a great servant for the club and one of if not the best RB in the league for several years. Obviously past his best now.
The crux of your argument seems to be based on the fact that players from that continent don't integrate as well, and I would agree with you to some extent. However, I don't think that it is the main reason that it doesn't work out for them when they come to United. You have to look at each situation individually rather than
comment by The Process (U20671)
posted 10 hours, 23 minutes ago
comment by BruceAndPally (U8201)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Cornelius Oofterom (U15867)
posted 18 minutes ago
Reckon the Irish would be among our most successful nationalities.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I was going to comment about Irish players, they’re out most successful non-British signings by an absolute mile.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Really hope to see a quality Irish player at United again.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hopefully Lee O'Connor.
Captained Irish youth sides, has looked good in the U23s and at 18 is training with the Ireland senior side.
SE85, I accept your intentions aren't racist, even though the generalisations you make sound that way. But your reasoning is poor. You say there are these major cultural differences for South Americans in the UK, then when it's pointed out that South Americans have done fantastically at lots of other English clubs, you say it must be the club culture at United, though you can't really explain what would be so different about it, and so unconducive exclusively to South Americans while effectively assimilating players from Central America and East Asia. And then when we point out players who don't seem to conform to this the "We're Cursed!" theory, there's a mixture of factors involved:
- player plays well but suffers from injuries (South American cultural issues?)
- player makes a great start but fades as he ages and after injuries (South American cultural issues?)
- player has a great first season but wants to leave for a rival after his place in the team is threatened after Fergie signs someone who completes for his place (South American cultural issues?)
Of the South Americans we have had, some haven't worked out at the club, some have been very good for a short while, and some have had decent careers without becoming fan favourites. Taken together, you could say we've been a bit unlucky with our recruitment in that region. But like scientists we should know that correlation doesn't equal causation. Look at your data and there's a consistent South American factor but that being South American is in the individual cases not a cause. Valencia hasn't lost his ability to beat his man because his English isn't good enough (in fact, his English was probably worse when he was a better footballer). Rafael didn't get lots of injuries because he was Brazilian. Jones gets lots of injuries.
Attributing outcomes to incidental factors is just superstition. It's no more logical than thinking colours are dangerous because you know people have drowned in vats of paint. Or (and this is why 1982 etc find what you say problematic) it's not dissimilar to going from the observation that more black people per capita are in jail to a conclusion that we therefore shouldn't trust *this* individual black person. That's where trusting in the pattern gets you: don't look at the particular reasons why things went wrong for particular individuals. Follow the pattern and you can forget that the black individual before you at the job interview didn't grow up in a broken home, wasn't exposed to drugs and south London gangs, and in fact has a first class degree from Oxford and just said something that implies he voted for David Cameron.
Ironically, you'd actually have a point if you were more careful. Cultural differences can make it harder for a player to integrate in a team, and SOME South Americans will find it harder to integrate in England. Kleberson seems to have been one example on the social level. So when we recruit any player, we should think about how well they are likely to adapt to Manchester (as well as to the unique exposure of playing for MUFC). It's likely that the bigger the culture shock, the bigger the adaptation, so this may be an issue for more South Americans. However, there are Dutch players who didn't really settle in the UK and Brazilians who felt at home on Teeside. And Ian Rush famously found that playing in Italy was 'like playing in a foreign country'.
I think all we ask is that you treat every individual case on its own merits.
There are dozens of South Americans who've flopped at United though, RR:
Mkhitaryan, Darmian, Obertan, Buttner, Taibi, Depay, Zaha, Miller, Djemba-Djemba, Dong, Manucho, Cruyff, Macheda, Powell, Kagawa, Schweinsteiger, Schneiderlin... I mean, I could go on...
You're forgetting the most South American of all the South Americans, rosso:
Alan Smith!
SE85, I'd be grateful if you engaged with what I said in my longer post.
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 19 minutes ago
You're forgetting the most South American of all the South Americans, rosso:
Alan Smith!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Alan Brazil
Who would be classed as the most successful south american import to English up until now
Aguero at this time springs to mind
Possibly tevez with what he won
You could go back to ardilles at spurs probably the first to make a major impact
I think Rojo is OK at CB, though rubbish at FB. He's a bit rash, hoofs it a bit, but he does get stuck in, there are no easy rides against him.
Sign in if you want to comment
So it begins......Darmian finally off
Page 5 of 5
posted on 21/1/19
Blanc is also a bit controversial. He didn't have the best of start and came to us at the end of his career.
posted on 21/1/19
The Best player to ever wear our red jersey was Irish, there's only one Ireland, that's where us Irish folk come from.
posted on 21/1/19
https://giphy.com/gifs/summer-steam-sale-ieYEXYIlKFMCk?utm_source=media-link&utm_medium=landing&utm_campaign=Media%20Links&utm_term=https://cn.bing.com/
posted on 21/1/19
Se85
And I’ll keep doing it as it’s ridiculous and bordering on racist you belllend. As someone of mixed race I find the idea that an entire continent of people can be labelled the same, lazy completely absurd.
posted on 21/1/19
comment by manutd1982 (U6633)
posted 41 minutes ago
Se85
And I’ll keep doing it as it’s ridiculous and bordering on racist you belllend. As someone of mixed race I find the idea that an entire continent of people can be labelled the same, lazy completely absurd.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not in the slightest bit racist. I consider myself liberal and I voted remain.
The fact they are from S America itself isn't the issue. It's more we don't seem to have a good track record. And we don't.
You cant honestly tell me that it's just as easy moving from France as it is from Brazil or Argentina. Most of our European imports learn or already speak English much better for example.
There's logic behind it but you just don't want to hear it.
It's simply a far bigger culture shock than say coming from Amsterdam, Madrid, Paris etc.
Rojo still hardly speaks English. Valencia doesn't even after 10 years. He refuses to be interviewed in English.
posted on 21/1/19
comment by Elvis (U7425)
posted 8 hours, 54 minutes ago
Successful South Americans we have had Heinze, Valencia, Rafael and Tevez. Veron I think would have been a success if there was place in the team for him. But SAF was never going to play him over scholes. Pointless signing
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Heinze was decent for a while. Then fell out with Fergie and asked to join Rafa's Liverpool. So for me that's a big no no.
Tevez was good for first year and then awful second. He then went to City. Another big no no.
Rafael was good ish for us but got a lot of injuries.
Valencia had a few good years but has had far more bad ones. Been very very very lucky to play for us as many times as he's had. And to be captain too despite failing to grasp English in 10 years is baffling.
The track record we have is appalling. Even our more successful ones (above) have done the dirty on us.
posted on 21/1/19
comment by Eric_the_king (SE85) (U21241)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Elvis (U7425)
posted 8 hours, 54 minutes ago
Successful South Americans we have had Heinze, Valencia, Rafael and Tevez. Veron I think would have been a success if there was place in the team for him. But SAF was never going to play him over scholes. Pointless signing
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Heinze was decent for a while. Then fell out with Fergie and asked to join Rafa's Liverpool. So for me that's a big no no.
Tevez was good for first year and then awful second. He then went to City. Another big no no.
Rafael was good ish for us but got a lot of injuries.
Valencia had a few good years but has had far more bad ones. Been very very very lucky to play for us as many times as he's had. And to be captain too despite failing to grasp English in 10 years is baffling.
The track record we have is appalling. Even our more successful ones (above) have done the dirty on us.
--------------------------
You have a very selective way of looking at things.
Heinze was a good player and did well for us when he played. The reason that he won our POTY in the only season he was a first team regular. By the time he returned from injury when he missed the 05/06 campaign, Evra had arrived and become first choice LB. He came back in into the team the following season, usually at CB due to injuries, and we won the title. SAF even made him captain the last few games of the season. Ultimately he wanted to leave as he wanted regular football, which is fair enough. He ended up at Real Madrid. Not the kind of move you make if you haven't been playing well.
Tevez was similar. He had a great first season, then SAF bought Berbatov and Tezev was eased out of the team.
Rafael I thought was a good RB, whose attitude was not in question. Yes he had injury problems, but players of any nationality can have injuries.
Valencia has been a great servant for the club and one of if not the best RB in the league for several years. Obviously past his best now.
The crux of your argument seems to be based on the fact that players from that continent don't integrate as well, and I would agree with you to some extent. However, I don't think that it is the main reason that it doesn't work out for them when they come to United. You have to look at each situation individually rather than
posted on 21/1/19
comment by The Process (U20671)
posted 10 hours, 23 minutes ago
comment by BruceAndPally (U8201)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Cornelius Oofterom (U15867)
posted 18 minutes ago
Reckon the Irish would be among our most successful nationalities.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I was going to comment about Irish players, they’re out most successful non-British signings by an absolute mile.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Really hope to see a quality Irish player at United again.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hopefully Lee O'Connor.
Captained Irish youth sides, has looked good in the U23s and at 18 is training with the Ireland senior side.
posted on 21/1/19
SE85, I accept your intentions aren't racist, even though the generalisations you make sound that way. But your reasoning is poor. You say there are these major cultural differences for South Americans in the UK, then when it's pointed out that South Americans have done fantastically at lots of other English clubs, you say it must be the club culture at United, though you can't really explain what would be so different about it, and so unconducive exclusively to South Americans while effectively assimilating players from Central America and East Asia. And then when we point out players who don't seem to conform to this the "We're Cursed!" theory, there's a mixture of factors involved:
- player plays well but suffers from injuries (South American cultural issues?)
- player makes a great start but fades as he ages and after injuries (South American cultural issues?)
- player has a great first season but wants to leave for a rival after his place in the team is threatened after Fergie signs someone who completes for his place (South American cultural issues?)
Of the South Americans we have had, some haven't worked out at the club, some have been very good for a short while, and some have had decent careers without becoming fan favourites. Taken together, you could say we've been a bit unlucky with our recruitment in that region. But like scientists we should know that correlation doesn't equal causation. Look at your data and there's a consistent South American factor but that being South American is in the individual cases not a cause. Valencia hasn't lost his ability to beat his man because his English isn't good enough (in fact, his English was probably worse when he was a better footballer). Rafael didn't get lots of injuries because he was Brazilian. Jones gets lots of injuries.
Attributing outcomes to incidental factors is just superstition. It's no more logical than thinking colours are dangerous because you know people have drowned in vats of paint. Or (and this is why 1982 etc find what you say problematic) it's not dissimilar to going from the observation that more black people per capita are in jail to a conclusion that we therefore shouldn't trust *this* individual black person. That's where trusting in the pattern gets you: don't look at the particular reasons why things went wrong for particular individuals. Follow the pattern and you can forget that the black individual before you at the job interview didn't grow up in a broken home, wasn't exposed to drugs and south London gangs, and in fact has a first class degree from Oxford and just said something that implies he voted for David Cameron.
Ironically, you'd actually have a point if you were more careful. Cultural differences can make it harder for a player to integrate in a team, and SOME South Americans will find it harder to integrate in England. Kleberson seems to have been one example on the social level. So when we recruit any player, we should think about how well they are likely to adapt to Manchester (as well as to the unique exposure of playing for MUFC). It's likely that the bigger the culture shock, the bigger the adaptation, so this may be an issue for more South Americans. However, there are Dutch players who didn't really settle in the UK and Brazilians who felt at home on Teeside. And Ian Rush famously found that playing in Italy was 'like playing in a foreign country'.
I think all we ask is that you treat every individual case on its own merits.
posted on 21/1/19
There are dozens of South Americans who've flopped at United though, RR:
Mkhitaryan, Darmian, Obertan, Buttner, Taibi, Depay, Zaha, Miller, Djemba-Djemba, Dong, Manucho, Cruyff, Macheda, Powell, Kagawa, Schweinsteiger, Schneiderlin... I mean, I could go on...
posted on 21/1/19
You're forgetting the most South American of all the South Americans, rosso:
Alan Smith!
posted on 21/1/19
SE85, I'd be grateful if you engaged with what I said in my longer post.
posted on 21/1/19
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 19 minutes ago
You're forgetting the most South American of all the South Americans, rosso:
Alan Smith!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Alan Brazil
posted on 21/1/19
Who would be classed as the most successful south american import to English up until now
Aguero at this time springs to mind
Possibly tevez with what he won
You could go back to ardilles at spurs probably the first to make a major impact
posted on 21/1/19
English football ^
posted on 21/1/19
I think Rojo is OK at CB, though rubbish at FB. He's a bit rash, hoofs it a bit, but he does get stuck in, there are no easy rides against him.
Page 5 of 5