So your suggesting we drop barnes for Vardy as he was the one missing the chances that he created for himself
Nope. My suggestion is we drop Gray for Vardy and actually play a striker.
But you seem to be advocating “sticking it up to the old guard” and sticking with no strikers so we can watch them moan on the sidelines.
If Barnes can add composure to his game we have a very good player on our hands, still have no idea how he missed his 3rd chance when he hit it straight at Lloris.
A good manager needs to be able to manage strong personalities in the dressing room. Rather than benching them or selling them wouldn't it be better to illustrate the game plan and demonstrate that it is working?
Since the beginning of time we've always heard about good teams having: "leaders on the pitch" or "leaders in the dressing room". I'm not sure that there would be very much dissent on or off the pitch if we were winning games and the game plan was clear and coherent.
One plan would be to ditch some of our best players ever, whilst they still have some value left in them, because they can't fathom the tactics, the formations, the team selections or the substitutions (which not many observers can either). Another would be to listen, evolve, make strong decisions and output some consistency and bring everyone along with you.
I know which plan I prefer.
comment by Your Honour (U17603)
posted 35 minutes ago
If Barnes can add composure to his game we have a very good player on our hands, still have no idea how he missed his 3rd chance when he hit it straight at Lloris.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Barnes will be fine...... For their third goal, Son ran from his own half.... Kasper made it to the six yard box? WTF?
comment by Jobyfox (U4183)
posted 3 hours, 57 minutes ago
A good manager needs to be able to manage strong personalities in the dressing room. Rather than benching them or selling them wouldn't it be better to illustrate the game plan and demonstrate that it is working?
Since the beginning of time we've always heard about good teams having: "leaders on the pitch" or "leaders in the dressing room". I'm not sure that there would be very much dissent on or off the pitch if we were winning games and the game plan was clear and coherent.
One plan would be to ditch some of our best players ever, whilst they still have some value left in them, because they can't fathom the tactics, the formations, the team selections or the substitutions (which not many observers can either). Another would be to listen, evolve, make strong decisions and output some consistency and bring everyone along with you.
I know which plan I prefer.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You can’t have players dictating tactics and selections to the manager - ever. If Puel gives into the way. Andy wants to play, rather than Vardy evolving his style (which he’s never done), then that is the wrong way round.
For everything Vardy has done for us, if he’s going to makes disrespectful remarks towards the manager (as in last week) and cause trouble in the dressing room (which has been widely reported previously) then I don’t want him here. That’s not leadership - that’s entitlement.
What I want is for Jamie to respect the wishes of the club that has rewarded him very handsomely with a new contract and support the transition we need to make. He showed against Spurs that he can have a part to play in that. We created way more chances than they did. He scored 20 goals under (mostly) Puel last season - and we didn’t play hit and hope.
It’s up to Vardy if he wants to be a part of this.
We've scored 1, yes ONE goal before the 47th minute once, yes ONCE since 1st December
No wonder we're all fed up
And even if you include the 2 47th minute goals, we've score 3. THREE 1st half goals since the 1st December. 14 games.
rather than Vardy evolving his style (which he’s never done
————————————————————————
Historically, Vardy has evolved immensely since signing (unless you are the poster the other day who said Vardy is only about pace or Michael Owen who claims he just hits it as hard as he can and relies on luck).
Under Puel, I can’t see a strong argument to suggest that Vardy hasn’t evolved either.
Last season he scored 20 goals. Outside of Leicester City and the fan base (and this is to Vardy’s credit in a way) it was viewed as a decent, but expected, tally for a good PL striker. Internally, we knew that his clinical finishing had become even more clinical - to be honest it was amazing. In games where we were and weren’t playing well, Vardy was putting away pretty much every decent chance he had because of a change in system - surely that’s evolution?
We tried to change the system under Ranieri and his goal tally was next to zero during the start to that season so even as a contrast to that, there’s evidence with his haul last year that he has tried to adapt.
This season - Puel has continued to try to implement a new style which, particularly pre-Christmas, affected to the amount of service provided to Vardy and there is always this debate of how much Puel prioritises a long term shift over the balance of utilising a clinical PL striker within his squad (something a lot of PL teams don’t have). Yet...Vardy has scored 8 in I think 19 or 20 starts this year, in matches that have involved him having even less service.
And this isn’t a striker who sits and waits in the box for chances, he is constantly working his socks off. In addition, I think there is a chance he is still carrying an injury from the summer and an even bigger chance he was never fully fit due to limited pre-season (neither Vardy’s nor Puel’s fault).
I’m all for changing the system/tactics, etc if that benefits us more from other sources than playing a way even more suited to Vardy - but for a large proportion of last season (let’s remember it was his goals that helped us finish as high as we did last year even when we weren’t ‘playing to his strengths) and this one there hasn’t been this huge benefit.
I do see glimmers and potential at times now but a) don’t see evidence (citing his goal tally above) that Vardy can’t be part of it, b) can’t understand how one wouldn’t see signs of evolution from Vardy and c) there has to be some acknowledgment that this isn’t always Vardy not being ‘suited’ to a system but rather a striker not being provided with service because the system (transitionally or not) wasn’t working effectively!
I think the only way to say Vardy hasn’t evolved at all would be to say he wasn’t ‘still’ scoring or being effective like he was in the title winning season - a) there’s an argument that was a one off season and probably isn’t a completely accurate way to judge his tally and style of play he needs and b) he scored 4 less last season than that tally in a new or transitional system. 4.....
In fact, since that season he’s scored 40 odd in 90 odd games, the majority of which have been a system that differs from the 2016 one. Buy a new striker who can do more than that in a new system - brilliant! But that record should not be sniffed at, particularly taking into account the, at times, phenomenal goals to chances ratio
I think Vardy scored for the losing side about 8 times last season, which I think was a record. I seriously don't think we should be questioning his commitment and desire to do well
comment by Cheesynacho (U1254)
posted 9 minutes ago
I think Vardy scored for the losing side about 8 times last season, which I think was a record. I seriously don't think we should be questioning his commitment and desire to do well
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We aren’t. We’re questioning his attitude and whether he wants to be part of this transition
Villa have just got a player to score 20 goals a year for the first time since Peter Withe and some people want to get rid of Vardy after spending £100 million plus trying to find anyone else who haven’t even scratched his stats.
comment by Keep_the_faith1 (U8129)
posted 13 minutes ago
rather than Vardy evolving his style (which he’s never done
————————————————————————
Historically, Vardy has evolved immensely since signing (unless you are the poster the other day who said Vardy is only about pace or Michael Owen who claims he just hits it as hard as he can and relies on luck).
Under Puel, I can’t see a strong argument to suggest that Vardy hasn’t evolved either.
Last season he scored 20 goals. Outside of Leicester City and the fan base (and this is to Vardy’s credit in a way) it was viewed as a decent, but expected, tally for a good PL striker. Internally, we knew that his clinical finishing had become even more clinical - to be honest it was amazing. In games where we were and weren’t playing well, Vardy was putting away pretty much every decent chance he had because of a change in system - surely that’s evolution?
We tried to change the system under Ranieri and his goal tally was next to zero during the start to that season so even as a contrast to that, there’s evidence with his haul last year that he has tried to adapt.
This season - Puel has continued to try to implement a new style which, particularly pre-Christmas, affected to the amount of service provided to Vardy and there is always this debate of how much Puel prioritises a long term shift over the balance of utilising a clinical PL striker within his squad (something a lot of PL teams don’t have). Yet...Vardy has scored 8 in I think 19 or 20 starts this year, in matches that have involved him having even less service.
And this isn’t a striker who sits and waits in the box for chances, he is constantly working his socks off. In addition, I think there is a chance he is still carrying an injury from the summer and an even bigger chance he was never fully fit due to limited pre-season (neither Vardy’s nor Puel’s fault).
I’m all for changing the system/tactics, etc if that benefits us more from other sources than playing a way even more suited to Vardy - but for a large proportion of last season (let’s remember it was his goals that helped us finish as high as we did last year even when we weren’t ‘playing to his strengths) and this one there hasn’t been this huge benefit.
I do see glimmers and potential at times now but a) don’t see evidence (citing his goal tally above) that Vardy can’t be part of it, b) can’t understand how one wouldn’t see signs of evolution from Vardy and c) there has to be some acknowledgment that this isn’t always Vardy not being ‘suited’ to a system but rather a striker not being provided with service because the system (transitionally or not) wasn’t working effectively!
I think the only way to say Vardy hasn’t evolved at all would be to say he wasn’t ‘still’ scoring or being effective like he was in the title winning season - a) there’s an argument that was a one off season and probably isn’t a completely accurate way to judge his tally and style of play he needs and b) he scored 4 less last season than that tally in a new or transitional system. 4.....
In fact, since that season he’s scored 40 odd in 90 odd games, the majority of which have been a system that differs from the 2016 one. Buy a new striker who can do more than that in a new system - brilliant! But that record should not be sniffed at, particularly taking into account the, at times, phenomenal goals to chances ratio
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You’re getting confused here between evolving and improving if I may say so.
When I talk about evolving his style of play - and it’s style I’m talking about, what I mean is that he plays in the same lethal way as he did when he was at Fleetwood. Is he the same player? No. Has he got better at finishing, decision making etc? Infinitely. Is he still a top PL striker? Absolutely
But Vardy said on record that one of the reasons that he didn’t move to Arsenal is because their game didn’t match his style of play. He’s right. He struggled for England towards the end, largely because we played a more possession oriented game under Southgate and Vardy just isn’t as effective in that role
Has he admitted that Puels style of football doesn’t match his strengths? Yep. Has he admitted on record that he needs to be better at holding the ball up? Absolutely
Jamie Vardy is a fantastic striker - but one that plays in the same way that he did years ago. I wouldn’t ever say he’s only got one trick or that he is just a pace merchant. I never made any comparison to Owen. But he hasn’t adapted to any other style. That’s just a fact
And by the way I’ve not suggested we should sell him. I’m suggesting he improves his attitude and gets on board with what we need to do as a club
Very good post KTF1. I often get frustrated that Vardy is labelled as one dimensional, he is not.
BS I also agree with your point. Vardy has to have the right attitude and be committed to Leicester City, whoever the manager is.
Now here’s where it gets complex, and here’s the problem. I think both Puel and Vardy need to take responsibility for the current situation.
KTF1 has it spot on. Vardy can easily fit in to puel’s system if Puel’s system starts to work. It isn’t working yet, make no mistake. We don’t create chances for any striker we’ve played. Whether that be Vardy, Okazaki, Nacho or heaven forbid Demairi Gray (seriously This is a prime example of poor management of players, fans and a club!).
Now, the big question remains, can it work?
Maybe it can, but the problem Puel has is that Vardy has now been playing is a system that creates hardly any chances for him, and he hardly touches the ball in a game. Not for 5-6 games, for what has now been over a year. Vardy isn’t the problem - whoever we’ve played there has had less success than him.
So I fully understand Vardy’s frustrations. He wouldn’t be human if he didn’t have them. It’s Puel’s failing that he hasn’t managed the player effectively to convince him it will come good and to stick with him. Likewise Bardy has let himself down badly with his lack of professionalism in recent weeks.
Like I said, it’s complex. But for me, the easiest fix in all of this is for us to start creating more genuine chances. I don’t care what stats say BS, we have not been creating them.
Improvement and evolution aren’t antonyms in my opinion.
Vardy has shown that, when provided with service, even if this is in a different style - he will score (last season cited)
What does it tell me that he isn’t doing the same this season? He’s getting even less service than he got last year.
If Vardy has admitted that Puel’s style of play doesn’t suit him and he banged in 20, that’s phenomenal.
So at worst, we have a striker who isn’t playing in his suited formation but still can score 20.
I’m not sure about Vardy and holding the ball up - it’s rare he gets knocked off the ball, loses the ball or doesn’t get a free kick. But more to the point, I don’t think ball up to Vardy/Vardy holding it up is Puel’s style but...if this was clearly the reason we weren’t being successful and was affecting results and also the impact of others players I would agree at that point, he should be dropped or look to add that part to his game.
To be fair to Puel, I don’t think he is against some of the things we did well in 2016. This lump it to Vardy comment in the press was nonsense - most of our attaches came from having a beast in midfield turning it over quickly and us attacking with pace. Puel has looked to cement two midfielders to break up play more as we were getting over ran and the three in front should compliment turning it over at pace.
What I think Puel wants to add that wasn’t there, was what we do when we have the ball in our own half in games and teams sit back. Rather than the ‘have the ball back, we don’t care, we will just win it back again higher up the pitch’ - I think he is looking to advocate, in these situations, a building game.
But I don’t think Vardy is the issue from this perspective as he has shown that with service in any system - he will still score. I don’t think there are many other strikers around that would have done any or much better than Vardy over the last season and a bit.
Why - because the CMs have been average to poor, severely affecting that aspect of breaking up play and I think Puel has become a little blinded with over coaching and which aspect of our game he prioritises. Which I think has lead to this constant changing around of things (I don’t for a second think it is good rotating)
I see light though, because I see a potential improvement in our midfield.
If everything clicks in midfield and we are more combative I think this will benefit Vardy. If it doesn’t, or when everything is working well Vardy is hindering our progress then we need to look at other options. But at the moment I don’t see him as a hindrance, I see his job limited by other factors rather than his skill set. As mentioned, this may change though but at the moment, I don’t think his lack of skill or evolution is a main problem to resolve.
Ps - the Owen comment was that Owen himself said Vardy just hits it hard and relies on luck
I also think in these arguments we should be a little pragmatic about our expectations of individuals and their behaviour. Personally I’m finding in my career now that with age and experience you are often asked to do things that you know, fundamentally, won’t work. You make the best of the situation anyway and be grateful that there isn’t a camera pointing at your face in those moments of frustration.
Some of us seem to have an expectation of Vardy that he should knuckle down and get on with it. Even when, we ourselves, can clearly see it’s not working. Again I would say that in a mature environment you need people who have dissenting views. Ok, you don’t want this to be disruptive - and being caught on camera is a little careless and naive. But is Vardy really that disruptive? It didn’t look like it a few weeks ago when he was jumping around Puel in a Spider-Man outfit.
I still believe that the onus is on Puel to get the best out of his system and demonstrate the value of it. In those situations any dissent would quickly disappear. Unfortunately, when it’s not working, the focus is of every decision you make from style, formation, substitutions and player selection. In that situation you look a bit foolish when you leave the only decent striker you’ve got on the bench.
In defence of Puel his wriggle room with Vardy isn’t great. The back up is Ian and Oki. I won’t even include Gray. How are we in this situation where our striker options are so incredibly limited? We all know that Vardy is the only option, Puel knows it, the players know it, pundits know it and Vardy knows it. So when he’s not selected it can only ever look like the manager trying to make a point.
‘We don’t create chances for any striker we’ve played‘
Mersey I’m going to address this comment with facts.
VS Cardiff City Dec 28th 2018
Possession - 62%
Shots 16
Shots on target 7
Opposition keeper saves - 7
Cardiff on the other hand;
Possession 38%
Shots 12
Shots on target 3
Schmeichel no. of saves made 7
VS Man Utd
Possession 45%
Shots 17
Shots on target 6
Manchester United
Possession 55%
Shots 10
Shots on target 6
Putting aside the possession stat which doesn’t equate to chances - can you explain to me, based on the stats I’ve just posted, how we don’t create chances for any of our strikers? You can factor in the Spurs game as well, if I pull the stats for that - it’s completely one sided in our favour in terms of chance creation
I think historical under Puel we haven’t created chances, this has improved in very recent games.
However, citing stats that involve other players having shots doesn’t necessarily give a clear indication of chances created for our main striker.
But as you’ve said, you’ve specific stats tell us that we are beginning to create chances overall and this is a positive but still doesn’t really suggest that Vardy is an issue for me personally
I think if we continued to create chances and this was in a consistent regular team and if other players were scoring we were winning and Vardy was not contributing but being provided with the service, then we would need to consider his input.
Lots of bridges and ifs first though
I'd be interested to know over the last 14 games, how many other teams had failed to score before the 47th minute, because if it's more than 1,(which is hard to believe) we are the 2nd worst team in the league.
If it's less than 1, we are the worst team in the league at starting football matches.
Opponents don't come into it, since 14 matches is a typical third of a season (going out in the cups to boot)
So, with one of the best strikers over the last 3/4 seasons available in the PL. Is our 1st half strike rate and game management and motivation acceptable?
NO
I knew you’d bring your facts out BS.
Please ask any fan who’s been watching us for the last year as to whether they thing we’ve been creating genuine clear cut chances for Vardy or any other striker.
I certainly haven’t seen them, unless my eyes have deceived me at most games and I’ve happened to look away as they happened!
My stat is a beasty bastarrd
3 THREE 1st half goals in the last 14 FOURTEEN matches (2 of them in the 47th minute)
Show me worse
..
comment by Merseysidefox (U4842)
posted 3 hours, 57 minutes ago
I knew you’d bring your facts out BS.
Please ask any fan who’s been watching us for the last year as to whether they thing we’ve been creating genuine clear cut chances for Vardy or any other striker.
I certainly haven’t seen them, unless my eyes have deceived me at most games and I’ve happened to look away as they happened!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah that’s right Let’s dispense with the cold hard facts as presented in black and white and instead rely on our impartial and totally unbiased fan base to tell us what their eyes are really seeing
Brilliant Mersey - you’ve absolutely out done yourself.
I’ll dig out more stats covering more games - not sure why I’m bothering because youe eyes are probably more reliable than anything out there....
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Time to go now!
Page 2 of 5
posted on 11/2/19
So your suggesting we drop barnes for Vardy as he was the one missing the chances that he created for himself
posted on 11/2/19
Nope. My suggestion is we drop Gray for Vardy and actually play a striker.
But you seem to be advocating “sticking it up to the old guard” and sticking with no strikers so we can watch them moan on the sidelines.
posted on 11/2/19
If Barnes can add composure to his game we have a very good player on our hands, still have no idea how he missed his 3rd chance when he hit it straight at Lloris.
posted on 11/2/19
A good manager needs to be able to manage strong personalities in the dressing room. Rather than benching them or selling them wouldn't it be better to illustrate the game plan and demonstrate that it is working?
Since the beginning of time we've always heard about good teams having: "leaders on the pitch" or "leaders in the dressing room". I'm not sure that there would be very much dissent on or off the pitch if we were winning games and the game plan was clear and coherent.
One plan would be to ditch some of our best players ever, whilst they still have some value left in them, because they can't fathom the tactics, the formations, the team selections or the substitutions (which not many observers can either). Another would be to listen, evolve, make strong decisions and output some consistency and bring everyone along with you.
I know which plan I prefer.
posted on 11/2/19
comment by Your Honour (U17603)
posted 35 minutes ago
If Barnes can add composure to his game we have a very good player on our hands, still have no idea how he missed his 3rd chance when he hit it straight at Lloris.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Barnes will be fine...... For their third goal, Son ran from his own half.... Kasper made it to the six yard box? WTF?
posted on 11/2/19
comment by Jobyfox (U4183)
posted 3 hours, 57 minutes ago
A good manager needs to be able to manage strong personalities in the dressing room. Rather than benching them or selling them wouldn't it be better to illustrate the game plan and demonstrate that it is working?
Since the beginning of time we've always heard about good teams having: "leaders on the pitch" or "leaders in the dressing room". I'm not sure that there would be very much dissent on or off the pitch if we were winning games and the game plan was clear and coherent.
One plan would be to ditch some of our best players ever, whilst they still have some value left in them, because they can't fathom the tactics, the formations, the team selections or the substitutions (which not many observers can either). Another would be to listen, evolve, make strong decisions and output some consistency and bring everyone along with you.
I know which plan I prefer.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You can’t have players dictating tactics and selections to the manager - ever. If Puel gives into the way. Andy wants to play, rather than Vardy evolving his style (which he’s never done), then that is the wrong way round.
For everything Vardy has done for us, if he’s going to makes disrespectful remarks towards the manager (as in last week) and cause trouble in the dressing room (which has been widely reported previously) then I don’t want him here. That’s not leadership - that’s entitlement.
What I want is for Jamie to respect the wishes of the club that has rewarded him very handsomely with a new contract and support the transition we need to make. He showed against Spurs that he can have a part to play in that. We created way more chances than they did. He scored 20 goals under (mostly) Puel last season - and we didn’t play hit and hope.
It’s up to Vardy if he wants to be a part of this.
posted on 12/2/19
We've scored 1, yes ONE goal before the 47th minute once, yes ONCE since 1st December
posted on 12/2/19
No wonder we're all fed up
posted on 12/2/19
And even if you include the 2 47th minute goals, we've score 3. THREE 1st half goals since the 1st December. 14 games.
posted on 12/2/19
rather than Vardy evolving his style (which he’s never done
————————————————————————
Historically, Vardy has evolved immensely since signing (unless you are the poster the other day who said Vardy is only about pace or Michael Owen who claims he just hits it as hard as he can and relies on luck).
Under Puel, I can’t see a strong argument to suggest that Vardy hasn’t evolved either.
Last season he scored 20 goals. Outside of Leicester City and the fan base (and this is to Vardy’s credit in a way) it was viewed as a decent, but expected, tally for a good PL striker. Internally, we knew that his clinical finishing had become even more clinical - to be honest it was amazing. In games where we were and weren’t playing well, Vardy was putting away pretty much every decent chance he had because of a change in system - surely that’s evolution?
We tried to change the system under Ranieri and his goal tally was next to zero during the start to that season so even as a contrast to that, there’s evidence with his haul last year that he has tried to adapt.
This season - Puel has continued to try to implement a new style which, particularly pre-Christmas, affected to the amount of service provided to Vardy and there is always this debate of how much Puel prioritises a long term shift over the balance of utilising a clinical PL striker within his squad (something a lot of PL teams don’t have). Yet...Vardy has scored 8 in I think 19 or 20 starts this year, in matches that have involved him having even less service.
And this isn’t a striker who sits and waits in the box for chances, he is constantly working his socks off. In addition, I think there is a chance he is still carrying an injury from the summer and an even bigger chance he was never fully fit due to limited pre-season (neither Vardy’s nor Puel’s fault).
I’m all for changing the system/tactics, etc if that benefits us more from other sources than playing a way even more suited to Vardy - but for a large proportion of last season (let’s remember it was his goals that helped us finish as high as we did last year even when we weren’t ‘playing to his strengths) and this one there hasn’t been this huge benefit.
I do see glimmers and potential at times now but a) don’t see evidence (citing his goal tally above) that Vardy can’t be part of it, b) can’t understand how one wouldn’t see signs of evolution from Vardy and c) there has to be some acknowledgment that this isn’t always Vardy not being ‘suited’ to a system but rather a striker not being provided with service because the system (transitionally or not) wasn’t working effectively!
I think the only way to say Vardy hasn’t evolved at all would be to say he wasn’t ‘still’ scoring or being effective like he was in the title winning season - a) there’s an argument that was a one off season and probably isn’t a completely accurate way to judge his tally and style of play he needs and b) he scored 4 less last season than that tally in a new or transitional system. 4.....
In fact, since that season he’s scored 40 odd in 90 odd games, the majority of which have been a system that differs from the 2016 one. Buy a new striker who can do more than that in a new system - brilliant! But that record should not be sniffed at, particularly taking into account the, at times, phenomenal goals to chances ratio
posted on 12/2/19
I think Vardy scored for the losing side about 8 times last season, which I think was a record. I seriously don't think we should be questioning his commitment and desire to do well
posted on 12/2/19
comment by Cheesynacho (U1254)
posted 9 minutes ago
I think Vardy scored for the losing side about 8 times last season, which I think was a record. I seriously don't think we should be questioning his commitment and desire to do well
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We aren’t. We’re questioning his attitude and whether he wants to be part of this transition
posted on 12/2/19
Villa have just got a player to score 20 goals a year for the first time since Peter Withe and some people want to get rid of Vardy after spending £100 million plus trying to find anyone else who haven’t even scratched his stats.
posted on 12/2/19
comment by Keep_the_faith1 (U8129)
posted 13 minutes ago
rather than Vardy evolving his style (which he’s never done
————————————————————————
Historically, Vardy has evolved immensely since signing (unless you are the poster the other day who said Vardy is only about pace or Michael Owen who claims he just hits it as hard as he can and relies on luck).
Under Puel, I can’t see a strong argument to suggest that Vardy hasn’t evolved either.
Last season he scored 20 goals. Outside of Leicester City and the fan base (and this is to Vardy’s credit in a way) it was viewed as a decent, but expected, tally for a good PL striker. Internally, we knew that his clinical finishing had become even more clinical - to be honest it was amazing. In games where we were and weren’t playing well, Vardy was putting away pretty much every decent chance he had because of a change in system - surely that’s evolution?
We tried to change the system under Ranieri and his goal tally was next to zero during the start to that season so even as a contrast to that, there’s evidence with his haul last year that he has tried to adapt.
This season - Puel has continued to try to implement a new style which, particularly pre-Christmas, affected to the amount of service provided to Vardy and there is always this debate of how much Puel prioritises a long term shift over the balance of utilising a clinical PL striker within his squad (something a lot of PL teams don’t have). Yet...Vardy has scored 8 in I think 19 or 20 starts this year, in matches that have involved him having even less service.
And this isn’t a striker who sits and waits in the box for chances, he is constantly working his socks off. In addition, I think there is a chance he is still carrying an injury from the summer and an even bigger chance he was never fully fit due to limited pre-season (neither Vardy’s nor Puel’s fault).
I’m all for changing the system/tactics, etc if that benefits us more from other sources than playing a way even more suited to Vardy - but for a large proportion of last season (let’s remember it was his goals that helped us finish as high as we did last year even when we weren’t ‘playing to his strengths) and this one there hasn’t been this huge benefit.
I do see glimmers and potential at times now but a) don’t see evidence (citing his goal tally above) that Vardy can’t be part of it, b) can’t understand how one wouldn’t see signs of evolution from Vardy and c) there has to be some acknowledgment that this isn’t always Vardy not being ‘suited’ to a system but rather a striker not being provided with service because the system (transitionally or not) wasn’t working effectively!
I think the only way to say Vardy hasn’t evolved at all would be to say he wasn’t ‘still’ scoring or being effective like he was in the title winning season - a) there’s an argument that was a one off season and probably isn’t a completely accurate way to judge his tally and style of play he needs and b) he scored 4 less last season than that tally in a new or transitional system. 4.....
In fact, since that season he’s scored 40 odd in 90 odd games, the majority of which have been a system that differs from the 2016 one. Buy a new striker who can do more than that in a new system - brilliant! But that record should not be sniffed at, particularly taking into account the, at times, phenomenal goals to chances ratio
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You’re getting confused here between evolving and improving if I may say so.
When I talk about evolving his style of play - and it’s style I’m talking about, what I mean is that he plays in the same lethal way as he did when he was at Fleetwood. Is he the same player? No. Has he got better at finishing, decision making etc? Infinitely. Is he still a top PL striker? Absolutely
But Vardy said on record that one of the reasons that he didn’t move to Arsenal is because their game didn’t match his style of play. He’s right. He struggled for England towards the end, largely because we played a more possession oriented game under Southgate and Vardy just isn’t as effective in that role
Has he admitted that Puels style of football doesn’t match his strengths? Yep. Has he admitted on record that he needs to be better at holding the ball up? Absolutely
Jamie Vardy is a fantastic striker - but one that plays in the same way that he did years ago. I wouldn’t ever say he’s only got one trick or that he is just a pace merchant. I never made any comparison to Owen. But he hasn’t adapted to any other style. That’s just a fact
posted on 12/2/19
And by the way I’ve not suggested we should sell him. I’m suggesting he improves his attitude and gets on board with what we need to do as a club
posted on 12/2/19
Very good post KTF1. I often get frustrated that Vardy is labelled as one dimensional, he is not.
BS I also agree with your point. Vardy has to have the right attitude and be committed to Leicester City, whoever the manager is.
Now here’s where it gets complex, and here’s the problem. I think both Puel and Vardy need to take responsibility for the current situation.
KTF1 has it spot on. Vardy can easily fit in to puel’s system if Puel’s system starts to work. It isn’t working yet, make no mistake. We don’t create chances for any striker we’ve played. Whether that be Vardy, Okazaki, Nacho or heaven forbid Demairi Gray (seriously This is a prime example of poor management of players, fans and a club!).
Now, the big question remains, can it work?
Maybe it can, but the problem Puel has is that Vardy has now been playing is a system that creates hardly any chances for him, and he hardly touches the ball in a game. Not for 5-6 games, for what has now been over a year. Vardy isn’t the problem - whoever we’ve played there has had less success than him.
So I fully understand Vardy’s frustrations. He wouldn’t be human if he didn’t have them. It’s Puel’s failing that he hasn’t managed the player effectively to convince him it will come good and to stick with him. Likewise Bardy has let himself down badly with his lack of professionalism in recent weeks.
Like I said, it’s complex. But for me, the easiest fix in all of this is for us to start creating more genuine chances. I don’t care what stats say BS, we have not been creating them.
posted on 12/2/19
Improvement and evolution aren’t antonyms in my opinion.
Vardy has shown that, when provided with service, even if this is in a different style - he will score (last season cited)
What does it tell me that he isn’t doing the same this season? He’s getting even less service than he got last year.
If Vardy has admitted that Puel’s style of play doesn’t suit him and he banged in 20, that’s phenomenal.
So at worst, we have a striker who isn’t playing in his suited formation but still can score 20.
I’m not sure about Vardy and holding the ball up - it’s rare he gets knocked off the ball, loses the ball or doesn’t get a free kick. But more to the point, I don’t think ball up to Vardy/Vardy holding it up is Puel’s style but...if this was clearly the reason we weren’t being successful and was affecting results and also the impact of others players I would agree at that point, he should be dropped or look to add that part to his game.
To be fair to Puel, I don’t think he is against some of the things we did well in 2016. This lump it to Vardy comment in the press was nonsense - most of our attaches came from having a beast in midfield turning it over quickly and us attacking with pace. Puel has looked to cement two midfielders to break up play more as we were getting over ran and the three in front should compliment turning it over at pace.
What I think Puel wants to add that wasn’t there, was what we do when we have the ball in our own half in games and teams sit back. Rather than the ‘have the ball back, we don’t care, we will just win it back again higher up the pitch’ - I think he is looking to advocate, in these situations, a building game.
But I don’t think Vardy is the issue from this perspective as he has shown that with service in any system - he will still score. I don’t think there are many other strikers around that would have done any or much better than Vardy over the last season and a bit.
Why - because the CMs have been average to poor, severely affecting that aspect of breaking up play and I think Puel has become a little blinded with over coaching and which aspect of our game he prioritises. Which I think has lead to this constant changing around of things (I don’t for a second think it is good rotating)
I see light though, because I see a potential improvement in our midfield.
If everything clicks in midfield and we are more combative I think this will benefit Vardy. If it doesn’t, or when everything is working well Vardy is hindering our progress then we need to look at other options. But at the moment I don’t see him as a hindrance, I see his job limited by other factors rather than his skill set. As mentioned, this may change though but at the moment, I don’t think his lack of skill or evolution is a main problem to resolve.
Ps - the Owen comment was that Owen himself said Vardy just hits it hard and relies on luck
posted on 12/2/19
I also think in these arguments we should be a little pragmatic about our expectations of individuals and their behaviour. Personally I’m finding in my career now that with age and experience you are often asked to do things that you know, fundamentally, won’t work. You make the best of the situation anyway and be grateful that there isn’t a camera pointing at your face in those moments of frustration.
Some of us seem to have an expectation of Vardy that he should knuckle down and get on with it. Even when, we ourselves, can clearly see it’s not working. Again I would say that in a mature environment you need people who have dissenting views. Ok, you don’t want this to be disruptive - and being caught on camera is a little careless and naive. But is Vardy really that disruptive? It didn’t look like it a few weeks ago when he was jumping around Puel in a Spider-Man outfit.
I still believe that the onus is on Puel to get the best out of his system and demonstrate the value of it. In those situations any dissent would quickly disappear. Unfortunately, when it’s not working, the focus is of every decision you make from style, formation, substitutions and player selection. In that situation you look a bit foolish when you leave the only decent striker you’ve got on the bench.
In defence of Puel his wriggle room with Vardy isn’t great. The back up is Ian and Oki. I won’t even include Gray. How are we in this situation where our striker options are so incredibly limited? We all know that Vardy is the only option, Puel knows it, the players know it, pundits know it and Vardy knows it. So when he’s not selected it can only ever look like the manager trying to make a point.
posted on 12/2/19
‘We don’t create chances for any striker we’ve played‘
Mersey I’m going to address this comment with facts.
VS Cardiff City Dec 28th 2018
Possession - 62%
Shots 16
Shots on target 7
Opposition keeper saves - 7
Cardiff on the other hand;
Possession 38%
Shots 12
Shots on target 3
Schmeichel no. of saves made 7
VS Man Utd
Possession 45%
Shots 17
Shots on target 6
Manchester United
Possession 55%
Shots 10
Shots on target 6
Putting aside the possession stat which doesn’t equate to chances - can you explain to me, based on the stats I’ve just posted, how we don’t create chances for any of our strikers? You can factor in the Spurs game as well, if I pull the stats for that - it’s completely one sided in our favour in terms of chance creation
posted on 12/2/19
I think historical under Puel we haven’t created chances, this has improved in very recent games.
However, citing stats that involve other players having shots doesn’t necessarily give a clear indication of chances created for our main striker.
But as you’ve said, you’ve specific stats tell us that we are beginning to create chances overall and this is a positive but still doesn’t really suggest that Vardy is an issue for me personally
posted on 12/2/19
I think if we continued to create chances and this was in a consistent regular team and if other players were scoring we were winning and Vardy was not contributing but being provided with the service, then we would need to consider his input.
Lots of bridges and ifs first though
posted on 12/2/19
I'd be interested to know over the last 14 games, how many other teams had failed to score before the 47th minute, because if it's more than 1,(which is hard to believe) we are the 2nd worst team in the league.
If it's less than 1, we are the worst team in the league at starting football matches.
Opponents don't come into it, since 14 matches is a typical third of a season (going out in the cups to boot)
So, with one of the best strikers over the last 3/4 seasons available in the PL. Is our 1st half strike rate and game management and motivation acceptable?
NO
posted on 12/2/19
I knew you’d bring your facts out BS.
Please ask any fan who’s been watching us for the last year as to whether they thing we’ve been creating genuine clear cut chances for Vardy or any other striker.
I certainly haven’t seen them, unless my eyes have deceived me at most games and I’ve happened to look away as they happened!
posted on 12/2/19
My stat is a beasty bastarrd
3 THREE 1st half goals in the last 14 FOURTEEN matches (2 of them in the 47th minute)
Show me worse
..
posted on 13/2/19
comment by Merseysidefox (U4842)
posted 3 hours, 57 minutes ago
I knew you’d bring your facts out BS.
Please ask any fan who’s been watching us for the last year as to whether they thing we’ve been creating genuine clear cut chances for Vardy or any other striker.
I certainly haven’t seen them, unless my eyes have deceived me at most games and I’ve happened to look away as they happened!
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Yeah that’s right Let’s dispense with the cold hard facts as presented in black and white and instead rely on our impartial and totally unbiased fan base to tell us what their eyes are really seeing
Brilliant Mersey - you’ve absolutely out done yourself.
I’ll dig out more stats covering more games - not sure why I’m bothering because youe eyes are probably more reliable than anything out there....
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