comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 10 seconds ago
That Squawka site is actually very good.
A quick search this evening has shown me that using the stats that I think TOOR suggested (forward passes and pass completion?), the following players are better passers of the ball than Henderson:
Milivojevic
Xhaka
Winks
Have only glanced at it so might look in more detail another time.
I think something might be wrong here but I can't put my finger on it. Something about stats not being wholly reliable perhaps?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Length of passes, showing range, forward passes and pass completion. Winks is definitely up there, a great little passer of the ball. Xhaka's long passing is poor. Milivojevic is a great passer of the ball, long and short. All better passers than Herrera.
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneReds (U1721)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 15 minutes ago
TOOR, it isn't much of a laugh with you anymore. It's the same old crap.
You've actually made up your own criteria for what constitutes one player being a better passer than the other and then tried to tell me it's a fact.
I genuinely wonder what you do as a job - I can't believe how deluded you are.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Manager of a medium sized company who make chairs and standing frames for children with disabilities. Not sure what that has to do with anything but perhaps it satisfies your curiosity.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It worries me that someone with your binary thinking manages anything other than preparing his breakfast, but such is life.
I had a feeling you worked in a digital form of marketing given your black and white view of the world.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm currently doing a degree in Computing and IT but will be staying clear from marketing as I dislike anything to do with it. I'll probably go into programming.
Xhaka's long passing is poor
==========
Not sure it is. He needs time though which is what does him in this league.
comment by Robbing_Hoody - as a rule I don't trust a... (U6374)
posted 2 minutes ago
Xhaka's long passing is poor
==========
Not sure it is. He needs time though which is what does him in this league.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I haven't watched a lot of him to be fair but when I have he's very panicked and always rushing his passes which often go out of play. To be fair I've mostly watched him against the better teams.
He's basically a cultured Craig Gardner. Weirdly the best game I've seen him play was against us in the 2-2 this season. Shouldn't be let anywhere near at midfield two at European level.
There'sOnlyOneReds (U1721)
So is Xhaka a better passer of a ball than Henderson or not?
Maybe you can outline the rules on using these statistics, seeing as you're the guardian of what is a fact and what isn't.
He's very rash in the tackle too from what I've seen and often taking too long on the ball, either resulting in a rushed pass or him making a rash tackle after being dispossessed. I'd take Herrera over him as he can get involved in battles without being rash and doesn't get put under pressure easily and he can move in tight spaces. Both not as good as Henderson of course.
'of course'
Come on TOOR, do outline the weighting applied to each criteria so we can all see, factually, who is better than who.
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 8 minutes ago
'of course'
Come on TOOR, do outline the weighting applied to each criteria so we can all see, factually, who is better than who.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't know what you're talking about as Henderson has 3% higher pass completion than Xhaka.
There'sOnlyOneReds (U1721)
What about the other criteria?
Can you please list the relevant criteria and how much weighting you apply to each, please?
Why should I? You stated Herrera was a better passer. The stats show Henderson completes more passes. Somebody then suggested he passes backwards and sideways. The stats show Henderson makes more forward passes than Herrera. It was then said that Henderson does simple passes next to his teammate and the stats say he has a longer average pass length.
What that has to do with Xhaka and him having a lesser pass percentage, by 3% is beyond me.
comment by There'sOnlyOneReds (U1721)
posted 2 hours, 8 minutes ago
comment by Uncle Ray (U18999)
posted 49 seconds ago
Well, well, well, the dippschitts don't rate Herrera, and that'll do fine. We'll see what happens Saturday night. We rate him and if anyone has watched Herrera, they would rate him. It's the ones who "only hear about him" that have the big opinions.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nobody said they don't rate him. One of the top performers in his position for years being better than a player doesn't mean the player isn't rated. It simply means he isn't as good a player. De Gea is a better goalkeeper than Alisson, who is a top keeper himself.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
TOOR, you're about the last person my comment was meant for, as I know you put in the time seeing the matches. In response to your comment, I can only say that Herrera is just as valuable to our club as Hendo is to yours, I think that's a fair assessment without going into our opinions as who's a better player. In Herrera's case, he's just recently found his form and the future will reveal his true quality.
"You stated Herrera was a better passer"
Did I?
"Why should I?"
Because you're claiming the stats prove you right. I want to know which stats and what weighting you apply so I can consider other players under the same crtieria as these two - hence why I raised Xhaka.
You're the one telling everyone there's a set criteria as to how we decide who is the better passer - factually - so presumably it should be easy for you to outline that criteria.
I'll wait.
comment by Uncle Ray (U18999)
posted 20 seconds ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneReds (U1721)
posted 2 hours, 8 minutes ago
comment by Uncle Ray (U18999)
posted 49 seconds ago
Well, well, well, the dippschitts don't rate Herrera, and that'll do fine. We'll see what happens Saturday night. We rate him and if anyone has watched Herrera, they would rate him. It's the ones who "only hear about him" that have the big opinions.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nobody said they don't rate him. One of the top performers in his position for years being better than a player doesn't mean the player isn't rated. It simply means he isn't as good a player. De Gea is a better goalkeeper than Alisson, who is a top keeper himself.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
TOOR, you're about the last person my comment was meant for, as I know you put in the time seeing the matches. In response to your comment, I can only say that Herrera is just as valuable to our club as Hendo is to yours, I think that's a fair assessment without going into our opinions as who's a better player. In Herrera's case, he's just recently found his form and the future will reveal his true quality.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Probably true. I don't think Henderson is as important to us as he was last season as I feel we have more leaders in the team now and the deepest position is better filled by Fabinho, with Henderson being more busy in the middle on and off the ball, however he's still very important to our side and results suffer when he doesn't play. He's also very important to England and one of England's best players at the last tournament.
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 3 minutes ago
"You stated Herrera was a better passer"
Did I?
"Why should I?"
Because you're claiming the stats prove you right. I want to know which stats and what weighting you apply so I can consider other players under the same crtieria as these two - hence why I raised Xhaka.
You're the one telling everyone there's a set criteria as to how we decide who is the better passer - factually - so presumably it should be easy for you to outline that criteria.
I'll wait.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I told you which stats and individually used them to prove each point that was made about Herrera's passing being better than Henderson's was incorrect. I'm not sure what you want from me?
You stated Herrera was a better passer. The stats show Henderson completes more passes. Somebody then suggested he passes backwards and sideways. The stats show Henderson makes more forward passes than Herrera. It was then said that Henderson does simple passes next to his teammate and the stats say he has a longer average pass length.
==============
There is absolutely nothing wrong with this. Winston unsurprisingly trying to turn this into a 'but what is a fact' debate because let's face it there is no tangible evidence, other than anecdotally from Utd fans, to support him.
There'sOnlyOneReds (U1721)
I want you to outline the criteria you use to decide who is better at passing.
You clearly have one as you've applied it but you don't seem willing to share it.
comment by Robbing_Hoody - as a rule I don't trust a man who doesn't drink but I do trust James Milner (U6374)
posted 2 minutes ago
You stated Herrera was a better passer. The stats show Henderson completes more passes. Somebody then suggested he passes backwards and sideways. The stats show Henderson makes more forward passes than Herrera. It was then said that Henderson does simple passes next to his teammate and the stats say he has a longer average pass length.
==============
There is absolutely nothing wrong with this. Winston unsurprisingly trying to turn this into a 'but what is a fact' debate because let's face it there is no tangible evidence, other than anecdotally from Utd fans, to support him.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You have supported TOOR's strawman argument.
Congrats
Liverpoola record is terrible against us since Herrera came.
Nothing wrong with what I wrote either. It's exactly what you've done.
comment by Posh Mufc Great Hafi Not Arrogant Just Better (U6578)
posted 28 seconds ago
Utd's record is terrible since Herrera came.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Fixed that for you.
comment by Robbing_Hoody - as a rule I don't trust a... (U6374)
posted 49 seconds ago
You stated Herrera was a better passer. The stats show Henderson completes more passes. Somebody then suggested he passes backwards and sideways. The stats show Henderson makes more forward passes than Herrera. It was then said that Henderson does simple passes next to his teammate and the stats say he has a longer average pass length.
==============
There is absolutely nothing wrong with this. Winston unsurprisingly trying to turn this into a 'but what is a fact' debate because let's face it there is no tangible evidence, other than anecdotally from Utd fans, to support him.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's the usual from Winston. The only thing I've heard throughout this thread to say Herrera is better is that his passing is better, which was proven incorrect. I thought it was a silly statement as Henderson is an excellent passer of the football and the stats show this, even of you haven't watched him play much.
There has been nothing else to suggest what Herrera is actually better at. What I find strange is that I could name some things but they attempt to argue against the main thing Henderson excels at. When the stats prove that wrong, Winston argues the stats aren't facts, instead of actually stating the things Herrera is better at. Weird.
The evidence comes from watching them play football, nothing else matters really. After that it's opinion. Generally I like Toor, but this argument is very poor.
comment by There'sOnlyOneReds (U1721)
posted 25 seconds ago
comment by Robbing_Hoody - as a rule I don't trust a... (U6374)
posted 49 seconds ago
You stated Herrera was a better passer. The stats show Henderson completes more passes. Somebody then suggested he passes backwards and sideways. The stats show Henderson makes more forward passes than Herrera. It was then said that Henderson does simple passes next to his teammate and the stats say he has a longer average pass length.
==============
There is absolutely nothing wrong with this. Winston unsurprisingly trying to turn this into a 'but what is a fact' debate because let's face it there is no tangible evidence, other than anecdotally from Utd fans, to support him.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's the usual from Winston. The only thing I've heard throughout this thread to say Herrera is better is that his passing is better, which was proven incorrect. I thought it was a silly statement as Henderson is an excellent passer of the football and the stats show this, even of you haven't watched him play much.
There has been nothing else to suggest what Herrera is actually better at. What I find strange is that I could name some things but they attempt to argue against the main thing Henderson excels at. When the stats prove that wrong, Winston argues the stats aren't facts, instead of actually stating the things Herrera is better at. Weird.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
TOOR resorting to just making stuff up now.
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 1 second ago
The evidence comes from watching them play football, nothing else matters really. After that it's opinion. Generally I like Toor, but this argument is very poor.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No it comes from both and you can be damned sure coaches look at those same stats.
Sign in if you want to comment
Herrera or Henderson ..
Page 13 of 15
11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15
posted on 20/2/19
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 10 seconds ago
That Squawka site is actually very good.
A quick search this evening has shown me that using the stats that I think TOOR suggested (forward passes and pass completion?), the following players are better passers of the ball than Henderson:
Milivojevic
Xhaka
Winks
Have only glanced at it so might look in more detail another time.
I think something might be wrong here but I can't put my finger on it. Something about stats not being wholly reliable perhaps?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Length of passes, showing range, forward passes and pass completion. Winks is definitely up there, a great little passer of the ball. Xhaka's long passing is poor. Milivojevic is a great passer of the ball, long and short. All better passers than Herrera.
posted on 20/2/19
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneReds (U1721)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 15 minutes ago
TOOR, it isn't much of a laugh with you anymore. It's the same old crap.
You've actually made up your own criteria for what constitutes one player being a better passer than the other and then tried to tell me it's a fact.
I genuinely wonder what you do as a job - I can't believe how deluded you are.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Manager of a medium sized company who make chairs and standing frames for children with disabilities. Not sure what that has to do with anything but perhaps it satisfies your curiosity.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It worries me that someone with your binary thinking manages anything other than preparing his breakfast, but such is life.
I had a feeling you worked in a digital form of marketing given your black and white view of the world.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm currently doing a degree in Computing and IT but will be staying clear from marketing as I dislike anything to do with it. I'll probably go into programming.
posted on 20/2/19
Xhaka's long passing is poor
==========
Not sure it is. He needs time though which is what does him in this league.
posted on 20/2/19
comment by Robbing_Hoody - as a rule I don't trust a... (U6374)
posted 2 minutes ago
Xhaka's long passing is poor
==========
Not sure it is. He needs time though which is what does him in this league.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I haven't watched a lot of him to be fair but when I have he's very panicked and always rushing his passes which often go out of play. To be fair I've mostly watched him against the better teams.
posted on 20/2/19
He's basically a cultured Craig Gardner. Weirdly the best game I've seen him play was against us in the 2-2 this season. Shouldn't be let anywhere near at midfield two at European level.
posted on 20/2/19
There'sOnlyOneReds (U1721)
So is Xhaka a better passer of a ball than Henderson or not?
Maybe you can outline the rules on using these statistics, seeing as you're the guardian of what is a fact and what isn't.
posted on 20/2/19
He's very rash in the tackle too from what I've seen and often taking too long on the ball, either resulting in a rushed pass or him making a rash tackle after being dispossessed. I'd take Herrera over him as he can get involved in battles without being rash and doesn't get put under pressure easily and he can move in tight spaces. Both not as good as Henderson of course.
posted on 20/2/19
'of course'
Come on TOOR, do outline the weighting applied to each criteria so we can all see, factually, who is better than who.
posted on 20/2/19
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 8 minutes ago
'of course'
Come on TOOR, do outline the weighting applied to each criteria so we can all see, factually, who is better than who.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't know what you're talking about as Henderson has 3% higher pass completion than Xhaka.
posted on 20/2/19
There'sOnlyOneReds (U1721)
What about the other criteria?
Can you please list the relevant criteria and how much weighting you apply to each, please?
posted on 20/2/19
Why should I? You stated Herrera was a better passer. The stats show Henderson completes more passes. Somebody then suggested he passes backwards and sideways. The stats show Henderson makes more forward passes than Herrera. It was then said that Henderson does simple passes next to his teammate and the stats say he has a longer average pass length.
What that has to do with Xhaka and him having a lesser pass percentage, by 3% is beyond me.
posted on 20/2/19
comment by There'sOnlyOneReds (U1721)
posted 2 hours, 8 minutes ago
comment by Uncle Ray (U18999)
posted 49 seconds ago
Well, well, well, the dippschitts don't rate Herrera, and that'll do fine. We'll see what happens Saturday night. We rate him and if anyone has watched Herrera, they would rate him. It's the ones who "only hear about him" that have the big opinions.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nobody said they don't rate him. One of the top performers in his position for years being better than a player doesn't mean the player isn't rated. It simply means he isn't as good a player. De Gea is a better goalkeeper than Alisson, who is a top keeper himself.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
TOOR, you're about the last person my comment was meant for, as I know you put in the time seeing the matches. In response to your comment, I can only say that Herrera is just as valuable to our club as Hendo is to yours, I think that's a fair assessment without going into our opinions as who's a better player. In Herrera's case, he's just recently found his form and the future will reveal his true quality.
posted on 20/2/19
"You stated Herrera was a better passer"
Did I?
"Why should I?"
Because you're claiming the stats prove you right. I want to know which stats and what weighting you apply so I can consider other players under the same crtieria as these two - hence why I raised Xhaka.
You're the one telling everyone there's a set criteria as to how we decide who is the better passer - factually - so presumably it should be easy for you to outline that criteria.
I'll wait.
posted on 20/2/19
comment by Uncle Ray (U18999)
posted 20 seconds ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneReds (U1721)
posted 2 hours, 8 minutes ago
comment by Uncle Ray (U18999)
posted 49 seconds ago
Well, well, well, the dippschitts don't rate Herrera, and that'll do fine. We'll see what happens Saturday night. We rate him and if anyone has watched Herrera, they would rate him. It's the ones who "only hear about him" that have the big opinions.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nobody said they don't rate him. One of the top performers in his position for years being better than a player doesn't mean the player isn't rated. It simply means he isn't as good a player. De Gea is a better goalkeeper than Alisson, who is a top keeper himself.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
TOOR, you're about the last person my comment was meant for, as I know you put in the time seeing the matches. In response to your comment, I can only say that Herrera is just as valuable to our club as Hendo is to yours, I think that's a fair assessment without going into our opinions as who's a better player. In Herrera's case, he's just recently found his form and the future will reveal his true quality.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Probably true. I don't think Henderson is as important to us as he was last season as I feel we have more leaders in the team now and the deepest position is better filled by Fabinho, with Henderson being more busy in the middle on and off the ball, however he's still very important to our side and results suffer when he doesn't play. He's also very important to England and one of England's best players at the last tournament.
posted on 20/2/19
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 3 minutes ago
"You stated Herrera was a better passer"
Did I?
"Why should I?"
Because you're claiming the stats prove you right. I want to know which stats and what weighting you apply so I can consider other players under the same crtieria as these two - hence why I raised Xhaka.
You're the one telling everyone there's a set criteria as to how we decide who is the better passer - factually - so presumably it should be easy for you to outline that criteria.
I'll wait.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I told you which stats and individually used them to prove each point that was made about Herrera's passing being better than Henderson's was incorrect. I'm not sure what you want from me?
posted on 20/2/19
You stated Herrera was a better passer. The stats show Henderson completes more passes. Somebody then suggested he passes backwards and sideways. The stats show Henderson makes more forward passes than Herrera. It was then said that Henderson does simple passes next to his teammate and the stats say he has a longer average pass length.
==============
There is absolutely nothing wrong with this. Winston unsurprisingly trying to turn this into a 'but what is a fact' debate because let's face it there is no tangible evidence, other than anecdotally from Utd fans, to support him.
posted on 20/2/19
There'sOnlyOneReds (U1721)
I want you to outline the criteria you use to decide who is better at passing.
You clearly have one as you've applied it but you don't seem willing to share it.
posted on 20/2/19
comment by Robbing_Hoody - as a rule I don't trust a man who doesn't drink but I do trust James Milner (U6374)
posted 2 minutes ago
You stated Herrera was a better passer. The stats show Henderson completes more passes. Somebody then suggested he passes backwards and sideways. The stats show Henderson makes more forward passes than Herrera. It was then said that Henderson does simple passes next to his teammate and the stats say he has a longer average pass length.
==============
There is absolutely nothing wrong with this. Winston unsurprisingly trying to turn this into a 'but what is a fact' debate because let's face it there is no tangible evidence, other than anecdotally from Utd fans, to support him.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You have supported TOOR's strawman argument.
Congrats
posted on 20/2/19
Liverpoola record is terrible against us since Herrera came.
posted on 20/2/19
Nothing wrong with what I wrote either. It's exactly what you've done.
posted on 20/2/19
comment by Posh Mufc Great Hafi Not Arrogant Just Better (U6578)
posted 28 seconds ago
Utd's record is terrible since Herrera came.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Fixed that for you.
posted on 20/2/19
comment by Robbing_Hoody - as a rule I don't trust a... (U6374)
posted 49 seconds ago
You stated Herrera was a better passer. The stats show Henderson completes more passes. Somebody then suggested he passes backwards and sideways. The stats show Henderson makes more forward passes than Herrera. It was then said that Henderson does simple passes next to his teammate and the stats say he has a longer average pass length.
==============
There is absolutely nothing wrong with this. Winston unsurprisingly trying to turn this into a 'but what is a fact' debate because let's face it there is no tangible evidence, other than anecdotally from Utd fans, to support him.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's the usual from Winston. The only thing I've heard throughout this thread to say Herrera is better is that his passing is better, which was proven incorrect. I thought it was a silly statement as Henderson is an excellent passer of the football and the stats show this, even of you haven't watched him play much.
There has been nothing else to suggest what Herrera is actually better at. What I find strange is that I could name some things but they attempt to argue against the main thing Henderson excels at. When the stats prove that wrong, Winston argues the stats aren't facts, instead of actually stating the things Herrera is better at. Weird.
posted on 20/2/19
The evidence comes from watching them play football, nothing else matters really. After that it's opinion. Generally I like Toor, but this argument is very poor.
posted on 20/2/19
comment by There'sOnlyOneReds (U1721)
posted 25 seconds ago
comment by Robbing_Hoody - as a rule I don't trust a... (U6374)
posted 49 seconds ago
You stated Herrera was a better passer. The stats show Henderson completes more passes. Somebody then suggested he passes backwards and sideways. The stats show Henderson makes more forward passes than Herrera. It was then said that Henderson does simple passes next to his teammate and the stats say he has a longer average pass length.
==============
There is absolutely nothing wrong with this. Winston unsurprisingly trying to turn this into a 'but what is a fact' debate because let's face it there is no tangible evidence, other than anecdotally from Utd fans, to support him.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's the usual from Winston. The only thing I've heard throughout this thread to say Herrera is better is that his passing is better, which was proven incorrect. I thought it was a silly statement as Henderson is an excellent passer of the football and the stats show this, even of you haven't watched him play much.
There has been nothing else to suggest what Herrera is actually better at. What I find strange is that I could name some things but they attempt to argue against the main thing Henderson excels at. When the stats prove that wrong, Winston argues the stats aren't facts, instead of actually stating the things Herrera is better at. Weird.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
TOOR resorting to just making stuff up now.
posted on 20/2/19
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 1 second ago
The evidence comes from watching them play football, nothing else matters really. After that it's opinion. Generally I like Toor, but this argument is very poor.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No it comes from both and you can be damned sure coaches look at those same stats.
Page 13 of 15
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