comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 17 seconds ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneReds (U1721)
posted 40 seconds ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 10 minutes ago
Oh and TOOR, I'm still waiting for your criteria. If you claim that your stats offer a cast iron factual outcome regarding who is the best passer, there should be a clear criteria that we can apply to all player comparisons.

Why haven't you shared it?
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Am I going insane or did I not already tell you on numerous occasions that I stated Henderson had a better pass completion percentage. Somebody then stated he plays easy passes sideways and backwards and then I showed average pass length and forward pass total proved this incorrect.

How many times do I have to say this to stop you asking?
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And how many times do I need to explain this.

You claim the stats prove as a fact that Henderson is a better passer.

I'm asking you to list the criteria and weighting for you to make that statement.

Showing you've rebuffed criticism of Henderson with a specific stat is not what I asked.
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Let's try break this down for you as you appear to be struggling with what has been stated.

Herrera is a better passer.

No he isn't as Henderson has a better pass percentage.

That's because he passes sideways and backwards, making easy passes to close teammates.

No it isn't as he also has a further average pass length than Herrera and plays more forward passes.

So that's it. If you want to add passing criteria and weighting to each criteria in an attempt to show Herrera is a better passer, go right ahead. I look forward to it. I'm certainly not going to spend my time doing it for you. I'm happy with the point I made and that the stats back it up.

Ah, I see - you think I'm trying to trick you.

I'm not.

You said that the stats show it's a fact that Henderson is a better passer.

I'm simply asking you to back that up by outlining which stats make it a fact. For example:

- Pass completion percentage - 50%
- Average pass length (further better) - 25%
- Forward passes (more better) - 25%

YOU are the one saying it's a fact so YOU should be able to outline why.

Disproving a specific point (like Henderson only passes sideways) is not the same thing as saying that it is a fact that he is a better passer than Herrera.

They're completely different in fact.

You have a credible opinion and you've backed it up. But that's all it is - an opinion.

comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 1 minute ago
Ah, I see - you think I'm trying to trick you.

I'm not.

You said that the stats show it's a fact that Henderson is a better passer.

I'm simply asking you to back that up by outlining which stats make it a fact. For example:

- Pass completion percentage - 50%
- Average pass length (further better) - 25%
- Forward passes (more better) - 25%

YOU are the one saying it's a fact so YOU should be able to outline why.

Disproving a specific point (like Henderson only passes sideways) is not the same thing as saying that it is a fact that he is a better passer than Herrera.

They're completely different in fact.

You have a credible opinion and you've backed it up. But that's all it is - an opinion.
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I have outlined why. You want me to outline it in another way. I don't want to.

No you haven't.

You've outlined how specific stats disprove specific statements, which I agree with.

What you have failed to do is outline why it's a fact that Henderson is a better passer than Herrera.

You see, if that were true then we'd be able to apply your criteria against any two players and quickly agree which is better. Which is why I'm asking, because I want to show you how flawed that is.

But you won't oblige - maybe because you know you were wrong to claim it as a fact, I don't know.

Either way, it leaves your point wide out in the open and struggling.

I mean if I say Shearer is a better goalscorer than Sheringham and show that he scores more goals, I've proven it. If somebody says to me that he only scores tap ins and I show that he has a higher average distance to goal percentage than Sheringham, I've proved that wrong too. They are facts. The same goes for passing, even if one plays for United and one Liverpool. There's no bias involved just fact.

I do love though that you think this is an attempt to find a way to show Herrera is a better passer.

I haven't even said that, so why would I be trying to prove it?



You really need to learn to read.

comment by There'sOnlyOneReds (U1721)
posted 19 seconds ago
I mean if I say Shearer is a better goalscorer than Sheringham and show that he scores more goals, I've proven it. If somebody says to me that he only scores tap ins and I show that he has a higher average distance to goal percentage than Sheringham, I've proved that wrong too. They are facts. The same goes for passing, even if one plays for United and one Liverpool. There's no bias involved just fact.
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The same doesn't go for passing.

If I say one player is better at passing than another, a pass completion percentage doesn't prove it either way.

Henderson is pretty average but, sad to say, he is at least premiership quality.

Herrera is a clueless, directionless answer to a question never asked. One of the worst things to happen to my club post SAF.

If somebody says to me that he only scores tap ins and I show that he has a higher average distance to goal percentage than Sheringham, I've proved that wrong too


This is correct, and very different to what we have been discussing.

comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 3 minutes ago
I do love though that you think this is an attempt to find a way to show Herrera is a better passer.

I haven't even said that, so why would I be trying to prove it?



You really need to learn to read.
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I don't think that. I don't think you can find anything which shows Herrera is a better passer which is why nobody has attempted to put a point forward which shows it. In fact nobody has attempted in over 300 comments to put a point forward about him being better at anything but passing, which nobody has been able to back up with any evidence.

comment by There'sOnlyOneReds (U1721)
posted 58 seconds ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 3 minutes ago
I do love though that you think this is an attempt to find a way to show Herrera is a better passer.

I haven't even said that, so why would I be trying to prove it?



You really need to learn to read.
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I don't think that. I don't think you can find anything which shows Herrera is a better passer which is why nobody has attempted to put a point forward which shows it. In fact nobody has attempted in over 300 comments to put a point forward about him being better at anything but passing, which nobody has been able to back up with any evidence.
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But most of our feelings about player comparisons - particularly in this position - are subject to what we see rather than stats.

You can't possibly conclude who is better using a spreadsheet.

And as I said before, the debate may be more reasonable if you didn't react the way you did to someone having an alternative opinion to you.

Had you accepted the alternative opinion but stated that you feel you've backed up your view more than the other person then I'd probably agree.

But you didn't. You accused them of wumming and claimed your opinion as fact.

comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 22 seconds ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneReds (U1721)
posted 58 seconds ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 3 minutes ago
I do love though that you think this is an attempt to find a way to show Herrera is a better passer.

I haven't even said that, so why would I be trying to prove it?



You really need to learn to read.
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I don't think that. I don't think you can find anything which shows Herrera is a better passer which is why nobody has attempted to put a point forward which shows it. In fact nobody has attempted in over 300 comments to put a point forward about him being better at anything but passing, which nobody has been able to back up with any evidence.
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But most of our feelings about player comparisons - particularly in this position - are subject to what we see rather than stats.

You can't possibly conclude who is better using a spreadsheet.

And as I said before, the debate may be more reasonable if you didn't react the way you did to someone having an alternative opinion to you.

Had you accepted the alternative opinion but stated that you feel you've backed up your view more than the other person then I'd probably agree.

But you didn't. You accused them of wumming and claimed your opinion as fact.
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That's fine but at the very least, even of you disagree I've proven it, I've stated what Henderson is better at and backed it up with stats. Nobody has done that with Herrera despite claiming he's better. Nobody has even offered an opinion on what he's actually better at, apart from passing, nevermind backed it up.

TOOR

Yes, you have given an opinion and backed it up. Nothing wrong with that.

The problem you have is that it will only be your opinion. Some opinions are more credible than others of course, but you can't just dismiss people's view as wumming and pass off your view as fact.

I think Herrera is a much better passer than the stats show. I've seen it with my own eyes and you have to remember that watching games live counts for a lot.

Do I think he's a better passer than Henderson? I really don't know. I think stats can be misleading and the poor management of United leads me to distrust them even more (see Martial as an example).

I disagree that no one has put forward reasoning re: Herrera on this thread but that's a different discussion.

If you were a bit more willing to accept someone else's opinion, even if you disagree, the discussion could have been very different.

Herrera is our best signing since SAF left.

comment by IAmMe (U18491)
posted 1 hour, 37 minutes ago
Henderson is pretty average but, sad to say, he is at least premiership quality.

Herrera is a clueless, directionless answer to a question never asked. One of the worst things to happen to my club post SAF.
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There you go

Definitive proof (if in fact it were needed) that Herrera is head and shoulders above Henderson