Agree to a degree. During that discussion, others discussed Ronaldinho, who is the most entertaining footballer I have seen. In saying that though, i went back to have a look at his stats, it is embarrassing to even compare him to Ronaldo. His best season he scored circa 26 goals with 11 assist. He declined from that and went on to AC Milan wherein he did sweet all.
I think Best and Ronaldo are great examples of players who were/are perfect for their time.
How the game is viewed these days also makes a big difference, I'm too young to have seen Best at his best but the coverage of him would have pretty much just been domestically so his legacy is probably much greater here than it is outside the UK. So comparisons to other greats at the same time such as Pele, Eusebio, Garrincha would have been harder to make.
Those footballers were the best in their era, and these are the best in our era, but the eras have improved as they've gone along in terms of coaching, fitness, health etc., so if you're definition of "better" is the quality they bring to a team, I would suggest that Ronaldo and Messi are better than any of those players.
George Best wouldn't have been given the amount of game time on talent alone in today's football. You have a lot of naturally gifted footballers like Adel Taarabt or Ravel Morrison but without the professionalism they've disappeared off the face of football.
Comparing players from different lifetimes ago will always be subjective. The average player today would have been a superstar in the 50s and that has a lot to do with the evolution in sport. Players are fitter, more athlete and have dedicated much more time in perfecting their crafts than others before. It's not always down to work ethic because 15 year olds now are financially taken care of and can afford to focus entirely on football.
Be a sad day when Messi and Ronaldo retire, there’s no one even close to replacing them in footy at the moment
comment by baz ta’rd (U19119)
posted 7 minutes ago
Be a sad day when Messi and Ronaldo retire, there’s no one even close to replacing them in footy at the moment
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mbappe looks like being the one that will come closest in terms of achievement and pure goal machining.
Mbappe looks like being the one that will come closest in terms of achievement and pure goal machining.
............
And he is good to watch.
Mbappe is quality and definitely one who can be the top player for some time.
Wouldn't put him anywhere near Messi and Ronaldo yet though.
comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 3 minutes ago
Mbappe looks like being the one that will come closest in terms of achievement and pure goal machining.
............
And he is good to watch.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He’s about the only one.
comment by baz ta’rd (U19119)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 3 minutes ago
Mbappe looks like being the one that will come closest in terms of achievement and pure goal machining.
............
And he is good to watch.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He’s about the only one.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Give it another couple of years and there might be another one. I mean I don't think I had heard of Mbappe until 2 years ago.
comment by Spurtle (U1608)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by baz ta’rd (U19119)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 3 minutes ago
Mbappe looks like being the one that will come closest in terms of achievement and pure goal machining.
............
And he is good to watch.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He’s about the only one.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Give it another couple of years and there might be another one. I mean I don't think I had heard of Mbappe until 2 years ago.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Dunno; we’ve had 15 years and no one has come close to Messi/Ronaldo.
comment by baz ta’rd (U19119)
posted 6 seconds ago
comment by Spurtle (U1608)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by baz ta’rd (U19119)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 3 minutes ago
Mbappe looks like being the one that will come closest in terms of achievement and pure goal machining.
............
And he is good to watch.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He’s about the only one.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Give it another couple of years and there might be another one. I mean I don't think I had heard of Mbappe until 2 years ago.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Dunno; we’ve had 15 years and no one has come close to Messi/Ronaldo.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not saying in 2 years we're going to have someone as good as Messi/Ronaldo. I mean another with potential to be like Mbappe.
Fitness levels have improved in general, but not in particular.
Two examples, Duncan Edwards probably the fittest I have seen, loved training, built like a light heavyweight champion.
Stanley Matthews never carried a spare ounce, trained on the beach after team training, played into his forties.
Edwards was probably incredibly fit for his time but with the advancements in sports science and dieting I'm pretty sure today's athletes are even fitter.
The fact Matthews was able to play into his 40s probably says more about the standard at the time and it's dependance less on fitness.
I can't believe someone just compared George Best to Adel Taarabt
Ivan, that kinda stunned me anaw
I don't buy the 'best for their era, we can never know' argument. It's a cop-out.
Undoubtedly Ronaldo is better than Pele, Best etc. These players were incredible for their era, but their era was worse when it comes to playing football. I'm not talking about enjoyment, enthusiasm, etc., but simply in terms of playing the game.
Best, Di Stefano, etc. didn't have access to sports science, better pitches etc. But we do know people who do: Ronaldo, Messi.
Ronaldo can do more against a higher quality of opposition, over a very long period of time.
Think about it: is a modern F1 car better than one from the 1950s? 'Ah yes, but that's unfair as technology has changed, the rules have changed....' Alright, so would you want to get one of those garaged F1 cars from Haynes motor museum and compete in today's grand prix? No. Equally, if a player from the 1950s was magically teleported through time to today's football, would he get into the Barcelona starting 11? No. Unlike a car, you could train the player to be better without a complete 'rebuild,' but this is an unknown. We know that Ronaldo can do these things, but it's an open question whether Pele could have done what Ronaldo can do with consistency. Admittedly my argument rests on the assumption that the standard of today's game is better than 40-50 years ago, but I'd point you to footage of Garrincha at a world cup skinning defenders to see the quality of what a talented player of the time was up against.
Edwards was probably incredibly fit for his time but with the advancements in sports science and dieting I'm pretty sure today's athletes are even fitter.
.............
Do you think Dunc might have been even fitter had he had today's advantages?
..............
The fact Matthews was able to play into his 40s probably says more about the standard at the time and it's dependance less on fitness.
................
Do you see a lot of people playing into theor 40's today? They seem to be burning out quicker.
Firkin
Ronaldo and Messi now exist in an era where tackling is virtually outlawed. I would imagine the likes of Di Stefano and Diego would have ran riot in a game when the art of defending has been lost. Some of the tackles that Maradona suffered would have led for calls of jail time these days. They were pure assaults.
As for your slight on the preparation of players, the 1966 Brazil World Cup team featured sports scientists, dieticians, the lot. Just because the English team didn't even have a doctor, don't assume that other nations weren't much further advanced in that regard.
Never mind the cars, are the drivers better?
Firkin
I think the point is because variables were different in different eras it's impossible to fairly compare. Had Ronaldo played in the 60s he would not have had the sports science and diets he does now that are a huge factor in his game and longevity, the way the game was played then would have also been a big issue with his style of play with defenders allowed to be more physical it's unlikely he would have been able to operate the same as he has done throughout his career.
Equally, had Best played now, who knows how his fondness for the party lifestyle would have effected his career, he could have fallen away early on or he could have really embraced modern football and become even better than he was, who knows? It isn't just the differences in science, diets and fitness either, you only have to look back to Gazza to wonder what if he had a manager like Ferguson looking after him how different his career and life would be? There are simply so many variables that make it virtually impossible to make comparisons.
VC
That's what I mean about playing in his 40s, the demands were less (in different ways) so Matthews was able to play that late into his career. That is far harder today IMO.
No doubt Edwards would have been fitter today with today's science, the vast majority of players would which is why it's always hard to compare as it isn't a level playing field.
That's what I mean about playing in his 40s, the demands were less (in different ways) so Matthews was able to play that late into his career. That is far harder today IMO.
...............
Not many did it then either.
That's what I mean about playing in his 40s, the demands were less (in different ways) so Matthews was able to play that late into his career. That is far harder today IMO.
-/
Indeed. Plus he was playing against players that had pies, chips a pint and ciggy at half time.
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There was a discussion about Ronaldo
Page 1 of 2
posted on 14/3/19
Agree to a degree. During that discussion, others discussed Ronaldinho, who is the most entertaining footballer I have seen. In saying that though, i went back to have a look at his stats, it is embarrassing to even compare him to Ronaldo. His best season he scored circa 26 goals with 11 assist. He declined from that and went on to AC Milan wherein he did sweet all.
posted on 14/3/19
I think Best and Ronaldo are great examples of players who were/are perfect for their time.
How the game is viewed these days also makes a big difference, I'm too young to have seen Best at his best but the coverage of him would have pretty much just been domestically so his legacy is probably much greater here than it is outside the UK. So comparisons to other greats at the same time such as Pele, Eusebio, Garrincha would have been harder to make.
posted on 14/3/19
Those footballers were the best in their era, and these are the best in our era, but the eras have improved as they've gone along in terms of coaching, fitness, health etc., so if you're definition of "better" is the quality they bring to a team, I would suggest that Ronaldo and Messi are better than any of those players.
posted on 14/3/19
*your
posted on 14/3/19
George Best wouldn't have been given the amount of game time on talent alone in today's football. You have a lot of naturally gifted footballers like Adel Taarabt or Ravel Morrison but without the professionalism they've disappeared off the face of football.
Comparing players from different lifetimes ago will always be subjective. The average player today would have been a superstar in the 50s and that has a lot to do with the evolution in sport. Players are fitter, more athlete and have dedicated much more time in perfecting their crafts than others before. It's not always down to work ethic because 15 year olds now are financially taken care of and can afford to focus entirely on football.
posted on 14/3/19
Be a sad day when Messi and Ronaldo retire, there’s no one even close to replacing them in footy at the moment
posted on 14/3/19
comment by baz ta’rd (U19119)
posted 7 minutes ago
Be a sad day when Messi and Ronaldo retire, there’s no one even close to replacing them in footy at the moment
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mbappe looks like being the one that will come closest in terms of achievement and pure goal machining.
posted on 14/3/19
Mbappe looks like being the one that will come closest in terms of achievement and pure goal machining.
............
And he is good to watch.
posted on 14/3/19
Mbappe is quality and definitely one who can be the top player for some time.
Wouldn't put him anywhere near Messi and Ronaldo yet though.
posted on 14/3/19
comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 3 minutes ago
Mbappe looks like being the one that will come closest in terms of achievement and pure goal machining.
............
And he is good to watch.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He’s about the only one.
posted on 14/3/19
comment by baz ta’rd (U19119)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 3 minutes ago
Mbappe looks like being the one that will come closest in terms of achievement and pure goal machining.
............
And he is good to watch.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He’s about the only one.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Give it another couple of years and there might be another one. I mean I don't think I had heard of Mbappe until 2 years ago.
posted on 14/3/19
comment by Spurtle (U1608)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by baz ta’rd (U19119)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 3 minutes ago
Mbappe looks like being the one that will come closest in terms of achievement and pure goal machining.
............
And he is good to watch.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He’s about the only one.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Give it another couple of years and there might be another one. I mean I don't think I had heard of Mbappe until 2 years ago.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Dunno; we’ve had 15 years and no one has come close to Messi/Ronaldo.
posted on 14/3/19
comment by baz ta’rd (U19119)
posted 6 seconds ago
comment by Spurtle (U1608)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by baz ta’rd (U19119)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 3 minutes ago
Mbappe looks like being the one that will come closest in terms of achievement and pure goal machining.
............
And he is good to watch.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He’s about the only one.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Give it another couple of years and there might be another one. I mean I don't think I had heard of Mbappe until 2 years ago.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Dunno; we’ve had 15 years and no one has come close to Messi/Ronaldo.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not saying in 2 years we're going to have someone as good as Messi/Ronaldo. I mean another with potential to be like Mbappe.
posted on 14/3/19
Fitness levels have improved in general, but not in particular.
Two examples, Duncan Edwards probably the fittest I have seen, loved training, built like a light heavyweight champion.
Stanley Matthews never carried a spare ounce, trained on the beach after team training, played into his forties.
posted on 14/3/19
Edwards was probably incredibly fit for his time but with the advancements in sports science and dieting I'm pretty sure today's athletes are even fitter.
The fact Matthews was able to play into his 40s probably says more about the standard at the time and it's dependance less on fitness.
posted on 14/3/19
I can't believe someone just compared George Best to Adel Taarabt
posted on 14/3/19
Ivan, that kinda stunned me anaw
posted on 14/3/19
I don't buy the 'best for their era, we can never know' argument. It's a cop-out.
Undoubtedly Ronaldo is better than Pele, Best etc. These players were incredible for their era, but their era was worse when it comes to playing football. I'm not talking about enjoyment, enthusiasm, etc., but simply in terms of playing the game.
Best, Di Stefano, etc. didn't have access to sports science, better pitches etc. But we do know people who do: Ronaldo, Messi.
Ronaldo can do more against a higher quality of opposition, over a very long period of time.
Think about it: is a modern F1 car better than one from the 1950s? 'Ah yes, but that's unfair as technology has changed, the rules have changed....' Alright, so would you want to get one of those garaged F1 cars from Haynes motor museum and compete in today's grand prix? No. Equally, if a player from the 1950s was magically teleported through time to today's football, would he get into the Barcelona starting 11? No. Unlike a car, you could train the player to be better without a complete 'rebuild,' but this is an unknown. We know that Ronaldo can do these things, but it's an open question whether Pele could have done what Ronaldo can do with consistency. Admittedly my argument rests on the assumption that the standard of today's game is better than 40-50 years ago, but I'd point you to footage of Garrincha at a world cup skinning defenders to see the quality of what a talented player of the time was up against.
posted on 14/3/19
Edwards was probably incredibly fit for his time but with the advancements in sports science and dieting I'm pretty sure today's athletes are even fitter.
.............
Do you think Dunc might have been even fitter had he had today's advantages?
..............
The fact Matthews was able to play into his 40s probably says more about the standard at the time and it's dependance less on fitness.
................
Do you see a lot of people playing into theor 40's today? They seem to be burning out quicker.
posted on 14/3/19
Firkin
Ronaldo and Messi now exist in an era where tackling is virtually outlawed. I would imagine the likes of Di Stefano and Diego would have ran riot in a game when the art of defending has been lost. Some of the tackles that Maradona suffered would have led for calls of jail time these days. They were pure assaults.
As for your slight on the preparation of players, the 1966 Brazil World Cup team featured sports scientists, dieticians, the lot. Just because the English team didn't even have a doctor, don't assume that other nations weren't much further advanced in that regard.
posted on 14/3/19
Never mind the cars, are the drivers better?
posted on 14/3/19
Firkin
I think the point is because variables were different in different eras it's impossible to fairly compare. Had Ronaldo played in the 60s he would not have had the sports science and diets he does now that are a huge factor in his game and longevity, the way the game was played then would have also been a big issue with his style of play with defenders allowed to be more physical it's unlikely he would have been able to operate the same as he has done throughout his career.
Equally, had Best played now, who knows how his fondness for the party lifestyle would have effected his career, he could have fallen away early on or he could have really embraced modern football and become even better than he was, who knows? It isn't just the differences in science, diets and fitness either, you only have to look back to Gazza to wonder what if he had a manager like Ferguson looking after him how different his career and life would be? There are simply so many variables that make it virtually impossible to make comparisons.
posted on 14/3/19
VC
That's what I mean about playing in his 40s, the demands were less (in different ways) so Matthews was able to play that late into his career. That is far harder today IMO.
No doubt Edwards would have been fitter today with today's science, the vast majority of players would which is why it's always hard to compare as it isn't a level playing field.
posted on 14/3/19
That's what I mean about playing in his 40s, the demands were less (in different ways) so Matthews was able to play that late into his career. That is far harder today IMO.
...............
Not many did it then either.
posted on 14/3/19
That's what I mean about playing in his 40s, the demands were less (in different ways) so Matthews was able to play that late into his career. That is far harder today IMO.
-/
Indeed. Plus he was playing against players that had pies, chips a pint and ciggy at half time.
Page 1 of 2