Kante Lithium actually makes up a tiny ammount of a modern Lithium Ion battery (about 3%) also lthium is one of the most abundant resources on this planet, although accessing it is a issue.
But to be honest, the future will not be the Lithium Ion battery, there is so much research being done at this moment and the future will not be lithium Ion.
comment by Kunta Kante (U1641)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Martial FC (U11781)
posted 7 minutes ago
What happens when lithium eventually runs out though Amiga?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Again mainly based on me and other people’s brief convos but while yes it is finite, we’ve barely tapped into worldwide lithium resources. Also read that while market is dominated by USA a lot of countries have stores that they’ll probs tap in to as market expands
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We don't even bother recycling lithium batteries for their lithium yet, so there's no need to panic in terms of a lithium shortage just yet.
If it really becomes an issue, lithium can be extracted from seawater. But I wouldn't be surprised to see different battery chemistry take over within the next 10-15 years. Sodium-ion could be a good bet.
If lithium is still around then in the future Bolivia could well be a global super power as they have so much of it they could dominate global production of it... or be invaded by the us after their oil runs out... either or...
I agree Hobo, you seem clued in to whats happening.
comment by Amigawolf no longer MIA (U18508)
posted 35 seconds ago
I agree Hobo, you seem clued in to whats happening.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Did Materials Science at uni so have a decent understanding of it from that. Did me sod all good in finding a related job but I still take an interest.
Hobo
Did Materials Science at uni so have a decent understanding of it from that. Did me sod all good in finding a related job but I still take an interest.
It might be worth dusting off that knowledge Hobo, there is a ton of research being done into battery tech at the moment.
Aye, might have better luck in getting an entry-level position now that I have 3 years experience.
God I hated the job search process. Don't advertise it as entry-level if you're not going to accept graduates!
Give it 15 years and fiat 500s will all be driven by bitter and broken 30+ year olds on their commute to the jobs they hate while they contemplate the life choices they made and wish it would all just end
This is literally me!?
Broken 30+
I drive a Fiat 500 (not out of choice.. it's a rental)
Contemplating life and my existence
If it's of any help, Fiat are doing and Fiat 500 EV.
Didn't they only do that to conform to new Californian laws?
comment by Ronny Van lack of Banterous - It's only me!! (U5996)
posted 6 hours, 4 minutes ago
Give it 15 years and fiat 500s will all be driven by bitter and broken 30+ year olds on their commute to the jobs they hate while they contemplate the life choices they made and wish it would all just end
This is literally me!?
Broken 30+
I drive a Fiat 500 (not out of choice.. it's a rental)
Contemplating life and my existence
----------------------------------------------------------------------
upgrade to an Abarth 500, even if just for the exhaust sound.
Drunken Hobo (U7360)
Didn't they only do that to conform to new Californian laws?
If you are talking about electrifying the Fiat 500, this has been announced for a 2020 launch.
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/fiat/500/106228/confirmed-all-new-fiat-500-due-with-electric-power-only-in-2020
Ah ok, there's a new one then. They originally released the EV 500 exclusively in California a few years ago to meet a new emissions law. They deliberately made it crap, with a low range and high price in the hope that no-one would buy them so they didn't have to bother making them.
Yes, they were called compliance cars, and as you say were never meant for mass production.
Tesla has really shook up the auto world, I don't think the public realise just how many EV's are coming to market in the next few years.
Grants for electric cars were slashed last year, while hybrids are no longer eligible for grants
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/electric-cars-hybrid-plug-in-grants-motoring-department-for-transport-a8596166.html
https://www.gov.uk/plug-in-car-van-grants
Electric cars ARE inevitable that doesn't mean it will be all rosie however. There are a few big problems at the moment that really need to be addressed and a few massive ones for the future.
Getting away form the obvious problems like Ranger and accessible chargers (Up in Scotland anything other than Glasgow and Edinburgh and your struggling for chargers and 100% need to plan your route accordingly taking much longer journeys or changing your destination altogether !)
But ones that i dont think i saw brought up:
Price depreciation : depreciation of EV's is almost double that of conventional car, also the warranty on the batteries as they are meant to be changed every 5 years ... is that right Amiga?
Brings me onto the point: the price of batteries is very expensive so although general maintenance may be cheaper this defo takes away from that.
At the moment there is nowhere to deal with mass recycling of the batteries and to my knowledge nothing really in place at the moment.
Repairs will cost a fortune. Local dealers cannot sort your car and also 99% of people on earth will not have a clue. Local mechanics and even just enthusiast's can fix almost all problems with conventional cars but EV's will need to sent to a dealer so wont be cheap!
In the future once most cars are EV (think they still only take up 1% of the market?) the demand for power especially during peak times is gonna be a huge drain and will drive electricity prices up. I also think Tesla are really going all out to try and own as many lithium mines as possible. Someone actually told me that outwith China, Musk owns about 85% of all the lithium mines in the world. That is not healthy for the rest of the market and will have to then overpay for the privelage of using "his" lithium.
I also remember Jeremy Clarkson raising a point ( and this may very well be a load of tosh therefore!!) that the carbon footprint created to transport the materials to make the batteries for the Prius per car is about the equivalent of driving for 10 years for the average driver? like i said that point might be a load of bull?
I think Amiga has covered most of the pro's that i can think of.
Also surely they must plan to ADD sound to these cars.
Sound makes a decent part of the humans perception.. So at roads and what not especially at blind corners or with obstacles in the way your other senses are massively enhanced with sound. They need to give them an artificial sound for the safety of pedestrians.
orange sherbet
You bring up a lot of points, and it goes to show how little people understand EV's, I will try and answer point for point.
Charging infrastructure of course needs upgrading, but there are plans to do this, and some huge investment being made, Gridserve have just announce a £1billion investment, to build 100 charging hubs. But yes more the more remote you are the more difficult it will be to charge. although for longer range cars it needn't be an issue.
Price depreciation is interesting, because they are actually holding there prices better than petrol cars in some cases. There was a report on this, I will try and dig it out.
Recycling is doable, but you are corrct there is no mass recycling happening at the moment. What there is however is second life use. Basically although a battery may lack the capacity to run a car, it has plenty of life left for grid storage, which is where they are being used. Ironically car batteries are holding up better than people anticipated, so there is actually a shortage.
Repairs EV's have so few moving parts, repairs and maintenance is not a huge issue. One of the reasons the big car manufacturers have been dragging their feet, is because EV's destroy their business model, which is based around, servicing and maintenance. There is very little to go wrong with an EV.
Everybody seems to quote 1%, those people really have no idea how fast the EV market is moving, I think it is Norway (don't quote me) has over 50% EV's, as choice grows so will take up, the EV market is set to boom.
Power grids will not struggle, in fact EV's could play and important part in balancing the grids. Most cars will charge at night, when there is a surplus of power.
I have no idea why you think Elon owns lithium mines? I have not heard this, I will check it out, but I think you are simply mistaken. A link would help.
Anything coming out of Clarksons mouth concerning EV's is tosh, I would post stuff to show why, but I need to go out. Ill try and post stuff later if people are interested.
EV's are not perfect, this is just the start, but they are set to change the way we drive.
As for adding sound, they have already done that with my leaf, anything below 20mph, there is an artificial noise generated, but to be honest I think people are making a big issue over nothing.
But yes more the more remote you are the more difficult it will be to charge.
___________________________________
Apparently the majority of Scotland is too remote for EVs
comment by Mattyp (U8926)
posted 1 day, 15 hours ago
Remember when the new minis came out.
They were exactly the same.
Give it 15 years and fiat 500s will all be driven by bitter and broken 30+ year olds on their commute to the jobs they hate while they contemplate the life choices they made and wish it would all just end
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I take this as a personal attack
Not the Fiat part but I got an old Ford Fiesta 2007 model. About 167000kms on the clock.
orange sherbet
also the warranty on the batteries as they are meant to be changed every 5 years ... is that right Amiga?
I meant to address this point but missed it. My car battery is now almost 3 years old (remember the time Clarkson said you would have to throw it away) It still has the same capacity as when I bought it) there are Teslas with over 100,000 miles on the clock, that have still over 95% battery capacity.
Batteries in cars are managed by the car, they are never allowed to fully charge, and are cooled or heated with active battery management) Leaf doesn't do this, but most new cars do.
Kia offer an 8 year warranty on their battery, because again it isn't the issue people thought it would be, in fact it has surprised people how well the batteries are holding up.
I think people are suspicious of batteries' lifespan because they last a couple of years in Samsung and Apple devices. But that's deliberate - planned obsolescence on the manufacturer's part to make you buy another phone when that one breaks.
Car companies can't get away with that one as there's far less of a monopoly.
IvanGolacIsMagic
Apparently the majority of Scotland is too remote for EVs
Yes it does make Scotland sound like some backward Country, basically if you access to a plug you can charge. the charging network is actually pretty good and growing. The government has stipulated any new build homes need to come with a home charger. and all petrol stations have to have chargers fitted.
https://www.zap-map.com/live/
Charging is not the issue most people think, especially with longer range cars, remember you wake up every morning with a full tank.
comment by Amigawolf no longer MIA (U18508)
posted 5 minutes ago
IvanGolacIsMagic
Apparently the majority of Scotland is too remote for EVs
Yes it does make Scotland sound like some backward Country,basically if you access to a plug you can charge. the charging network is actually pretty good and growing. The government has stipulated any new build homes need to come with a home charger. and all petrol stations have to have chargers fitted.
https://www.zap-map.com/live/
Charging is not the issue most people think, especially with longer range cars, remember you wake up every morning with a full tank.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
can just imagine all the schemes up and down the UK... with the cables going into the car not being tampered with/removed/stolen/damaged overnight !!! they will need to come up with something different other than a cable IMO
Sign in if you want to comment
Electric cars are inevitable.
Page 3 of 7
6 | 7
posted on 9/4/19
Kante Lithium actually makes up a tiny ammount of a modern Lithium Ion battery (about 3%) also lthium is one of the most abundant resources on this planet, although accessing it is a issue.
But to be honest, the future will not be the Lithium Ion battery, there is so much research being done at this moment and the future will not be lithium Ion.
posted on 9/4/19
comment by Kunta Kante (U1641)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Martial FC (U11781)
posted 7 minutes ago
What happens when lithium eventually runs out though Amiga?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Again mainly based on me and other people’s brief convos but while yes it is finite, we’ve barely tapped into worldwide lithium resources. Also read that while market is dominated by USA a lot of countries have stores that they’ll probs tap in to as market expands
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We don't even bother recycling lithium batteries for their lithium yet, so there's no need to panic in terms of a lithium shortage just yet.
If it really becomes an issue, lithium can be extracted from seawater. But I wouldn't be surprised to see different battery chemistry take over within the next 10-15 years. Sodium-ion could be a good bet.
posted on 9/4/19
If lithium is still around then in the future Bolivia could well be a global super power as they have so much of it they could dominate global production of it... or be invaded by the us after their oil runs out... either or...
posted on 9/4/19
I agree Hobo, you seem clued in to whats happening.
posted on 9/4/19
comment by Amigawolf no longer MIA (U18508)
posted 35 seconds ago
I agree Hobo, you seem clued in to whats happening.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Did Materials Science at uni so have a decent understanding of it from that. Did me sod all good in finding a related job but I still take an interest.
posted on 9/4/19
Hobo
Did Materials Science at uni so have a decent understanding of it from that. Did me sod all good in finding a related job but I still take an interest.
It might be worth dusting off that knowledge Hobo, there is a ton of research being done into battery tech at the moment.
posted on 9/4/19
Aye, might have better luck in getting an entry-level position now that I have 3 years experience.
God I hated the job search process. Don't advertise it as entry-level if you're not going to accept graduates!
posted on 10/4/19
Give it 15 years and fiat 500s will all be driven by bitter and broken 30+ year olds on their commute to the jobs they hate while they contemplate the life choices they made and wish it would all just end
This is literally me!?
Broken 30+
I drive a Fiat 500 (not out of choice.. it's a rental)
Contemplating life and my existence
posted on 10/4/19
If it's of any help, Fiat are doing and Fiat 500 EV.
posted on 10/4/19
Didn't they only do that to conform to new Californian laws?
posted on 10/4/19
comment by Ronny Van lack of Banterous - It's only me!! (U5996)
posted 6 hours, 4 minutes ago
Give it 15 years and fiat 500s will all be driven by bitter and broken 30+ year olds on their commute to the jobs they hate while they contemplate the life choices they made and wish it would all just end
This is literally me!?
Broken 30+
I drive a Fiat 500 (not out of choice.. it's a rental)
Contemplating life and my existence
----------------------------------------------------------------------
upgrade to an Abarth 500, even if just for the exhaust sound.
posted on 10/4/19
Drunken Hobo (U7360)
Didn't they only do that to conform to new Californian laws?
If you are talking about electrifying the Fiat 500, this has been announced for a 2020 launch.
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/fiat/500/106228/confirmed-all-new-fiat-500-due-with-electric-power-only-in-2020
posted on 10/4/19
Ah ok, there's a new one then. They originally released the EV 500 exclusively in California a few years ago to meet a new emissions law. They deliberately made it crap, with a low range and high price in the hope that no-one would buy them so they didn't have to bother making them.
posted on 10/4/19
Yes, they were called compliance cars, and as you say were never meant for mass production.
Tesla has really shook up the auto world, I don't think the public realise just how many EV's are coming to market in the next few years.
posted on 11/4/19
Grants for electric cars were slashed last year, while hybrids are no longer eligible for grants
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/electric-cars-hybrid-plug-in-grants-motoring-department-for-transport-a8596166.html
posted on 11/4/19
https://www.gov.uk/plug-in-car-van-grants
posted on 11/4/19
Electric cars ARE inevitable that doesn't mean it will be all rosie however. There are a few big problems at the moment that really need to be addressed and a few massive ones for the future.
Getting away form the obvious problems like Ranger and accessible chargers (Up in Scotland anything other than Glasgow and Edinburgh and your struggling for chargers and 100% need to plan your route accordingly taking much longer journeys or changing your destination altogether !)
But ones that i dont think i saw brought up:
Price depreciation : depreciation of EV's is almost double that of conventional car, also the warranty on the batteries as they are meant to be changed every 5 years ... is that right Amiga?
Brings me onto the point: the price of batteries is very expensive so although general maintenance may be cheaper this defo takes away from that.
At the moment there is nowhere to deal with mass recycling of the batteries and to my knowledge nothing really in place at the moment.
Repairs will cost a fortune. Local dealers cannot sort your car and also 99% of people on earth will not have a clue. Local mechanics and even just enthusiast's can fix almost all problems with conventional cars but EV's will need to sent to a dealer so wont be cheap!
In the future once most cars are EV (think they still only take up 1% of the market?) the demand for power especially during peak times is gonna be a huge drain and will drive electricity prices up. I also think Tesla are really going all out to try and own as many lithium mines as possible. Someone actually told me that outwith China, Musk owns about 85% of all the lithium mines in the world. That is not healthy for the rest of the market and will have to then overpay for the privelage of using "his" lithium.
I also remember Jeremy Clarkson raising a point ( and this may very well be a load of tosh therefore!!) that the carbon footprint created to transport the materials to make the batteries for the Prius per car is about the equivalent of driving for 10 years for the average driver? like i said that point might be a load of bull?
I think Amiga has covered most of the pro's that i can think of.
posted on 11/4/19
Also surely they must plan to ADD sound to these cars.
Sound makes a decent part of the humans perception.. So at roads and what not especially at blind corners or with obstacles in the way your other senses are massively enhanced with sound. They need to give them an artificial sound for the safety of pedestrians.
posted on 11/4/19
orange sherbet
You bring up a lot of points, and it goes to show how little people understand EV's, I will try and answer point for point.
Charging infrastructure of course needs upgrading, but there are plans to do this, and some huge investment being made, Gridserve have just announce a £1billion investment, to build 100 charging hubs. But yes more the more remote you are the more difficult it will be to charge. although for longer range cars it needn't be an issue.
Price depreciation is interesting, because they are actually holding there prices better than petrol cars in some cases. There was a report on this, I will try and dig it out.
Recycling is doable, but you are corrct there is no mass recycling happening at the moment. What there is however is second life use. Basically although a battery may lack the capacity to run a car, it has plenty of life left for grid storage, which is where they are being used. Ironically car batteries are holding up better than people anticipated, so there is actually a shortage.
Repairs EV's have so few moving parts, repairs and maintenance is not a huge issue. One of the reasons the big car manufacturers have been dragging their feet, is because EV's destroy their business model, which is based around, servicing and maintenance. There is very little to go wrong with an EV.
Everybody seems to quote 1%, those people really have no idea how fast the EV market is moving, I think it is Norway (don't quote me) has over 50% EV's, as choice grows so will take up, the EV market is set to boom.
Power grids will not struggle, in fact EV's could play and important part in balancing the grids. Most cars will charge at night, when there is a surplus of power.
I have no idea why you think Elon owns lithium mines? I have not heard this, I will check it out, but I think you are simply mistaken. A link would help.
Anything coming out of Clarksons mouth concerning EV's is tosh, I would post stuff to show why, but I need to go out. Ill try and post stuff later if people are interested.
EV's are not perfect, this is just the start, but they are set to change the way we drive.
As for adding sound, they have already done that with my leaf, anything below 20mph, there is an artificial noise generated, but to be honest I think people are making a big issue over nothing.
posted on 11/4/19
But yes more the more remote you are the more difficult it will be to charge.
___________________________________
Apparently the majority of Scotland is too remote for EVs
posted on 11/4/19
comment by Mattyp (U8926)
posted 1 day, 15 hours ago
Remember when the new minis came out.
They were exactly the same.
Give it 15 years and fiat 500s will all be driven by bitter and broken 30+ year olds on their commute to the jobs they hate while they contemplate the life choices they made and wish it would all just end
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I take this as a personal attack
Not the Fiat part but I got an old Ford Fiesta 2007 model. About 167000kms on the clock.
posted on 11/4/19
orange sherbet
also the warranty on the batteries as they are meant to be changed every 5 years ... is that right Amiga?
I meant to address this point but missed it. My car battery is now almost 3 years old (remember the time Clarkson said you would have to throw it away) It still has the same capacity as when I bought it) there are Teslas with over 100,000 miles on the clock, that have still over 95% battery capacity.
Batteries in cars are managed by the car, they are never allowed to fully charge, and are cooled or heated with active battery management) Leaf doesn't do this, but most new cars do.
Kia offer an 8 year warranty on their battery, because again it isn't the issue people thought it would be, in fact it has surprised people how well the batteries are holding up.
posted on 11/4/19
I think people are suspicious of batteries' lifespan because they last a couple of years in Samsung and Apple devices. But that's deliberate - planned obsolescence on the manufacturer's part to make you buy another phone when that one breaks.
Car companies can't get away with that one as there's far less of a monopoly.
posted on 11/4/19
IvanGolacIsMagic
Apparently the majority of Scotland is too remote for EVs
Yes it does make Scotland sound like some backward Country, basically if you access to a plug you can charge. the charging network is actually pretty good and growing. The government has stipulated any new build homes need to come with a home charger. and all petrol stations have to have chargers fitted.
https://www.zap-map.com/live/
Charging is not the issue most people think, especially with longer range cars, remember you wake up every morning with a full tank.
posted on 11/4/19
comment by Amigawolf no longer MIA (U18508)
posted 5 minutes ago
IvanGolacIsMagic
Apparently the majority of Scotland is too remote for EVs
Yes it does make Scotland sound like some backward Country,basically if you access to a plug you can charge. the charging network is actually pretty good and growing. The government has stipulated any new build homes need to come with a home charger. and all petrol stations have to have chargers fitted.
https://www.zap-map.com/live/
Charging is not the issue most people think, especially with longer range cars, remember you wake up every morning with a full tank.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
can just imagine all the schemes up and down the UK... with the cables going into the car not being tampered with/removed/stolen/damaged overnight !!! they will need to come up with something different other than a cable IMO
Page 3 of 7
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