There's a special place in hell for any JA606er who voted for Brexit.

mancini gone missing after WWSPD put him in his place

comment by Hulk's little brother Yoda (U1250)
posted 38 minutes ago
mancini gone missing after WWSPD put him in his place
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Not really.

WWSPD is talking about the trade aspect of the EU.
And I have stated repeatedly that if the EU is all about trade alone just like NAFTA, then it would be insane to quit the bloc.

However, the EU has metamorphosed into a super state just like the old Soviet Union.
They are no longer just about trade.

So, regardless of any benefits highlighted by those links, the costs far outweigh them.

comment by Hulk's little brother Yoda (U1250)
posted 49 minutes ago
mancini gone missing after WWSPD put him in his place
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I don’t think it’s right to gloat but it’s frustrating how much utter bullsheet has been allowed to enter the Brexit debate. And with respect Mancini, on this thread (and others) you have been culpable.

Given most of this stuff was never discussed prior to the EUref, I don’t blame ‘joe public’ but our elected officials, (with access to special advisors etc) who are paid to know these things, and provide constituents with factual information.

IMO the parliamentary donor system needs reform. MP’s being paid large amounts of money from foreign lobbyists, all of a sudden having a change of opinion on Brexit. From a positon pragmatism to the extreme.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/revealed-how-dark-money-is-winning-brexit-influencing-ga/

comment by mancini (U7179)
posted 16 minutes ago
comment by Hulk's little brother Yoda (U1250)
posted 38 minutes ago
mancini gone missing after WWSPD put him in his place
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not really.

WWSPD is talking about the trade aspect of the EU.
And I have stated repeatedly that if the EU is all about trade alone just like NAFTA, then it would be insane to quit the bloc.

However, the EU has metamorphosed into a super state just like the old Soviet Union.
They are no longer just about trade.

So, regardless of any benefits highlighted by those links, the costs far outweigh them.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Go on, point us to the link that you believe details this.

Should also have noted that the EU has developed its trade policy (further integration) as the WTO have progressed the liberalisation of trade in goods, and services.

Countries and trade blocs who have chosen deeper integrated ties in the global trading system, have benefited more than those who have not.

Trade revenues contribute to the public purse which provides governments more to spend on public services.

So we can have a feeling of more ‘sovereignty’ and be much less well off, or continue to be one of the main forerunners in the worlds most advanced / influential trade bloc.

But not both.

Mancini, you're all over the place again.

You're in favour of a trade association if we're not part of the 'superstate' but opposed to membership of the single market as per the Norway / EEA model? Do you realise that makes absolutely no sense? You can't have frictionless trade if you have countless non-tarrif barriers. The confusion is however understandable because many of the ERG / hard Brexiteers were advocating the Norway model and close economic and regulatory alignment as recently as the referendum campaign. Some of them have shifted with the weather; some were cynically hiding the true nature of the far-right project because they knew the public was more likely to vote for a Brexit that could be anything they liked, that people who didn't want radical change could vote for, and which didn't have to answer to tough scrutiny because it didn't have a concrete agenda.

As for 'superstate like the Soviet Union', do you realise what childish propaganda that sounds like outside the bubble of true believers. The USSR was hateful because it was a totalitarian regime that murdered millions of it's own citizens. Not because it covered a wide geography encompassing lots of different ethnic groups. The comparison is about as useful as calling the UK a 'highly centralised state like Hitler's Germany'.

There are valid arguments for Brexit and even for a no deal Brexit. But at least be factually scrupulous and intellectually honest about it. A no deal Brexit makes sense if you want:
- Less cooperation with neighbouring countries on issues such as the environment and ensuring the rich don't avoid tax through tax havens.
- Radical deregulation of the economy to create a business-friendly environment with less 'red tape' around health and safety, environmental protections and workers' rights. (This is where much of the ERG is coming from and many of them have been open about their end game.)
- Fewer foreigners
- Far more migrants from the Global South
- Economic turmoil which can be channelled into a rejection of capitalism. (This is basically the stance of the British communist party.)
- Economic turmoil which can be channelled into a rejection of the centuries-old British liberal democracy, ushering in a new, authoritarian-nationalist order. (This is the kind of development that figures like Steve Bannon want to see.)
- The disintegration of the small-d democratic alliance. (What Putin has wet dreams about.)

All of those are perfectly defensible positions. Not many people in your camp endorse them, either because they are themselves caught up in the passion and rhetoric and therefore cling to abstractions like 'sovereignty', or because they know the fundamentals of what they want aren't actually very appealing to the median UK citizen.

Whole fvkin mess is about a 6th Form Prefect Common Room vendetta.

Cameron, Osborne, Johnson, Gove.

To see who can be Top Chap.

All entitled millionaire-at-birth Bullingdons.

comment by The Mighty Quinn (U4099)
posted 2 hours, 19 minutes ago

Whole fvkin mess is about a 6th Form Prefect Common Room vendetta.

Cameron, Osborne, Johnson, Gove.

To see who can be Top Chap.

All entitled millionaire-at-birth Bullingdons.


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And supported/facilitated by the plebs who through sheer ignorance keeping voting against their own and the majority of the populations best interests.

Here's another Tory (MEP) on BBC Newsnight outright lying (unchallenged) about 'no deal' and GATT24:

https://twitter.com/Jim_Cornelius/status/1116104425070837761?s=09

This is also a great thread displaying all of the lies (in their own words) from the likes of the ERG:

https://twitter.com/EmporersNewC/status/1113547733300842497?s=19

comment by Redinthehead - FreeGaza - فلسطين (U1860)
posted 17 hours, 10 minutes ago
comment by mancini (U7179)
posted 16 minutes ago
comment by Hulk's little brother Yoda (U1250)
posted 38 minutes ago
mancini gone missing after WWSPD put him in his place
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not really.

WWSPD is talking about the trade aspect of the EU.
And I have stated repeatedly that if the EU is all about trade alone just like NAFTA, then it would be insane to quit the bloc.

However, the EU has metamorphosed into a super state just like the old Soviet Union.
They are no longer just about trade.

So, regardless of any benefits highlighted by those links, the costs far outweigh them.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Go on, point us to the link that you believe details this.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mancini done a runner.

Think he'll stand for UKIP in the local elections?

My heart goes out to you gentlemen.

You do seem to have more than your fair share of roasters down there.