Wasn't Busby the original architect of the utd way
When I saw 'past-foreign-country' in the link, the two words that sprung into my mind were 'Barney Ronay'.
I'll now read the article.
Hard to argue with his point and I do see Ole falling into this trap every time he speaks. It’s always honouring the past and getting back to what he believes United ought to be.
Now look, it may prove to be a successful formula. Only time will tell. But I do believe it will act more like a ball and chain on the club.
It’s also hard to shake off a philosophy that garnered so much success. It’s the greatest period in the clubs history. Why would your fans want to change? It’s a question you’ll all have to ask yourself.
I personally believe it’s down to the personnel as opposed to a club led philosophy. Take Jurgen Klopp for example. People could try and replicate his ideas but I don’t think it’s possible. It’s the man himself that’s important.
Ole needs to start thinking of himself as a man dictating the future as opposed to a man honouring the old days.
As far as the motivations of the present owners, there is nothing in the article that hasn't been said before, especially these last 6 years
Ole needs to start thinking of himself as a man dictating the future as opposed to a man honouring the old days.
------------------------------------
If Man Utd wanted someone to do that then they should have given that freedom to Mourinho instead of forcing him to change like they did.
You know I like} Barney. I don't always agree with him hut he's always entertaining.
comment by Wahl (U22164)
posted 1 minute ago
Ole needs to start thinking of himself as a man dictating the future as opposed to a man honouring the old days.
------------------------------------
If Man Utd wanted someone to do that then they should have given that freedom to Mourinho instead of forcing him to change like they did.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What more freedoms did he need? He spent big money without really having to sell and he completely changed your style.
Mourinho was misteated by the fans and pressured to play the United way.
As usual, I find BR's writing beautifully constructed and his range of references impressive but don't see him actually saying anything very original or incisive.
As to the key point about Solskjaer and the idea of 'restoring' the United culture, I think the critique is based on some questionable assumptions.
1) The Fergie culture in question is pretty much leadership best practice, not some very narrow template that may have only worked in the 90s and 00s. Solskjaer might do a lot of things differently to Fergie but it's natural that he would draw on the example of a guy he worked under and who has been invited to the likes of Harvard Business School to tell them about leadership.
2) Why wouldn't you use that recent golden era as a frame of reference when talking to the players and the wider world about what he's building now? Projecting confidence of success is a significant part of achieving success.
3) Rumours of Fletcher and Ferdinand are basically conjecture. But if they are true, we see lots of successful clubs with 'club men' embedded in their hierarchy. It's overegging the argument to suggest that this is solely about being guardians of the flame of some fixed culture. It can also have the role of ensuring that people who really care about the club are in positions of influence and providing some continuity in the fast changing world of football.
I'd apply a similar question to the appointment of Solskjaer himself. He's a young talented coach with a preference for fast paced, high pressing football. The fact that he loves the club and can project confidence and vision based on his direct connection to the Fergie era isn't a bad thing.
4) In the absence of an in-depth discussion with Solskjaer and/or Woodward, we really don't know the extent to which the idea of Fergie's model (itself actually far more pragmatic and mutable than most people remember) or some sense of a longer-term Manchester United culture is really driving decisions and strategies (if we even have those).
Ultimately BR's articles make me think of going for a massage when suffering from back pain and getting a very pleasant light rub from an attractive masseuse (possibly with a happy ending - I don't know, this is only an analogy) and going home with the same back pain. Obviously Barney would have done the metaphor much better than that.
Great post RR. But when you look at Chelsea's trophy haul it does show continuity is not the only answer.
Agree though that following what has been successful should be a good thing.
Using reference to what would 1908 and 1911 title-winning manager Ernest Mangnall will think of Lingard and Rashfords behaviour doesn't help this guy's limp attack on the United's culture and the United way. Busby's culture and blueprint wasn't formulated until the aftermath of WW2, to prevent the club from reverting back to the club is was in the 20s and 30s. A poorly run football club which was relegated often, threatened with bankruptcy often even struggling to generate enough income to replace the 'Red Rags' that the players had to wear.
If he IS attacking the 'United Way' as pointless, he clearly doesn't know what this is. Its not about a winning way, its about an entertaining, swashbuckling and above all glorious way which got people queueing down the street to pay to watch and be entertained. This is the very basis of what our Club is all about. Vast support income and commercial interest up and down the land and across the world due to its culture. Winning cups is a bonus for proper United fans, which only sometimes comes as a consequence of adopting the United Way blue-print (which hasn't always delivered). But win cups or not, the stadium will always be full and the TV cameras will always be there. The day we reject that culture is the day United will die as the Club that more than any other fans in the World by a country mile, love and know.
Agree though that following what has been successful should be a good
_______
You should also learn from mistakes from the past and considering what happened post Busby it appears we weren't as ready for the fergie transition as we should have been
Does he actually define for the reader what he thinks United's culture and philosophy are, and then go on to explain why they are no longer relevant?
comment by Metro.⚽️ (U6770)
posted 1 hour, 10 minutes ago
Hard to argue with his point and I do see Ole falling into this trap every time he speaks. It’s always honouring the past and getting back to what he believes United ought to be.
Now look, it may prove to be a successful formula. Only time will tell. But I do believe it will act more like a ball and chain on the club.
It’s also hard to shake off a philosophy that garnered so much success. It’s the greatest period in the clubs history. Why would your fans want to change? It’s a question you’ll all have to ask yourself.
I personally believe it’s down to the personnel as opposed to a club led philosophy. Take Jurgen Klopp for example. People could try and replicate his ideas but I don’t think it’s possible. It’s the man himself that’s important.
Ole needs to start thinking of himself as a man dictating the future as opposed to a man honouring the old days.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well put and this is how I feel. Clubs need to adapt and change, we cannot get stuck in the past. City are leaving us behind on and off the field at this moment in time.
Disagree completely.
The “philosophy” or “culture” actually represent a modus operandi, a blueprint with repeatable, repeated, distinct and very recognizable characteristics which successfully delivered for extended periods under two management regimes.
Forget the sentimentality for a minute. If we hadn’t moved so far away from the blueprint, we wouldn’t be in the mire we’re in now.
Giggs / Metro, any evidence that he isn't doing this? I'd be amazed if what he takes from Fergie's time isn't more than a set of quite basic principles (attacking, hard-working, togetherness, etc.) and some tips about leadership.
Does he actually define for the reader what he thinks United's culture and philosophy are, and then go on to explain why they are no longer relevant?
++
Not at all.
comment by RB&W 'The Judge' (U21434)
posted 3 minutes ago
Does he actually define for the reader what he thinks United's culture and philosophy are, and then go on to explain why they are no longer relevant?
++
Not at all.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This^
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 11 minutes ago
Giggs / Metro, any evidence that he isn't doing this? I'd be amazed if what he takes from Fergie's time isn't more than a set of quite basic principles (attacking, hard-working, togetherness, etc.) and some tips about leadership.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not so much evidence. But on the balance of what I see and hear, he seems to be a man keen to cast his glance back at what “was good” as opposed to what “could be good”.
comment by Metro.⚽️ (U6770)
posted 19 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 11 minutes ago
Giggs / Metro, any evidence that he isn't doing this? I'd be amazed if what he takes from Fergie's time isn't more than a set of quite basic principles (attacking, hard-working, togetherness, etc.) and some tips about leadership.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not so much evidence. But on the balance of what I see and hear, he seems to be a man keen to cast his glance back at what “was good” as opposed to what “could be good”.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
But how much have you seen and heard about emulating the past that applies to specifics such as training routines, formations and tactics? What I've heard seems to be much more generalised, in terms of culture, energy and attacking intent.
His football philosophy is shaped by fergie's influence
Its stands to reason he is going to reference him when hes asked about his plans moving forward
If you win, talking about the past is used as inspiration, if you lose the past is a burden...
“Imagine Bryan Robson’s reaction to that tangled bed linen.”
I’d imagine he and most of the first team would have been too p*ssed to notice
I don't think people should underestimate "the United Way" and how we, as supporters, would like us to play. But success invariably leads to romanticism. Trying to repeat the past, in a different era, isn't guaranteed to be successful.
However, what Ed's latest brainwave seems to be, is just to bring guys from the past into positions of leadership, in the hope of fooling fans into expecting the same as the past. Bringing unqualified people into positions of power is crazy. Who was our best leader and captain in the last 30 years? Robson. Second best? Keane. How'd they do in management? The thought of Rio, Fletch and Butt as a three man technical leadership, with Ole at the wheel is terrifying. Because it makes no sense, and is an embarrassment beyond anything Ed has already done imo
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posted on 22/6/19
Wasn't Busby the original architect of the utd way
posted on 22/6/19
When I saw 'past-foreign-country' in the link, the two words that sprung into my mind were 'Barney Ronay'.
I'll now read the article.
posted on 22/6/19
Hard to argue with his point and I do see Ole falling into this trap every time he speaks. It’s always honouring the past and getting back to what he believes United ought to be.
Now look, it may prove to be a successful formula. Only time will tell. But I do believe it will act more like a ball and chain on the club.
It’s also hard to shake off a philosophy that garnered so much success. It’s the greatest period in the clubs history. Why would your fans want to change? It’s a question you’ll all have to ask yourself.
I personally believe it’s down to the personnel as opposed to a club led philosophy. Take Jurgen Klopp for example. People could try and replicate his ideas but I don’t think it’s possible. It’s the man himself that’s important.
Ole needs to start thinking of himself as a man dictating the future as opposed to a man honouring the old days.
posted on 22/6/19
As far as the motivations of the present owners, there is nothing in the article that hasn't been said before, especially these last 6 years
posted on 22/6/19
Ole needs to start thinking of himself as a man dictating the future as opposed to a man honouring the old days.
------------------------------------
If Man Utd wanted someone to do that then they should have given that freedom to Mourinho instead of forcing him to change like they did.
posted on 22/6/19
You know I like} Barney. I don't always agree with him hut he's always entertaining.
posted on 22/6/19
comment by Wahl (U22164)
posted 1 minute ago
Ole needs to start thinking of himself as a man dictating the future as opposed to a man honouring the old days.
------------------------------------
If Man Utd wanted someone to do that then they should have given that freedom to Mourinho instead of forcing him to change like they did.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What more freedoms did he need? He spent big money without really having to sell and he completely changed your style.
posted on 22/6/19
Mourinho was misteated by the fans and pressured to play the United way.
posted on 22/6/19
As usual, I find BR's writing beautifully constructed and his range of references impressive but don't see him actually saying anything very original or incisive.
As to the key point about Solskjaer and the idea of 'restoring' the United culture, I think the critique is based on some questionable assumptions.
1) The Fergie culture in question is pretty much leadership best practice, not some very narrow template that may have only worked in the 90s and 00s. Solskjaer might do a lot of things differently to Fergie but it's natural that he would draw on the example of a guy he worked under and who has been invited to the likes of Harvard Business School to tell them about leadership.
2) Why wouldn't you use that recent golden era as a frame of reference when talking to the players and the wider world about what he's building now? Projecting confidence of success is a significant part of achieving success.
3) Rumours of Fletcher and Ferdinand are basically conjecture. But if they are true, we see lots of successful clubs with 'club men' embedded in their hierarchy. It's overegging the argument to suggest that this is solely about being guardians of the flame of some fixed culture. It can also have the role of ensuring that people who really care about the club are in positions of influence and providing some continuity in the fast changing world of football.
I'd apply a similar question to the appointment of Solskjaer himself. He's a young talented coach with a preference for fast paced, high pressing football. The fact that he loves the club and can project confidence and vision based on his direct connection to the Fergie era isn't a bad thing.
4) In the absence of an in-depth discussion with Solskjaer and/or Woodward, we really don't know the extent to which the idea of Fergie's model (itself actually far more pragmatic and mutable than most people remember) or some sense of a longer-term Manchester United culture is really driving decisions and strategies (if we even have those).
Ultimately BR's articles make me think of going for a massage when suffering from back pain and getting a very pleasant light rub from an attractive masseuse (possibly with a happy ending - I don't know, this is only an analogy) and going home with the same back pain. Obviously Barney would have done the metaphor much better than that.
posted on 22/6/19
Great post RR. But when you look at Chelsea's trophy haul it does show continuity is not the only answer.
Agree though that following what has been successful should be a good thing.
posted on 22/6/19
Using reference to what would 1908 and 1911 title-winning manager Ernest Mangnall will think of Lingard and Rashfords behaviour doesn't help this guy's limp attack on the United's culture and the United way. Busby's culture and blueprint wasn't formulated until the aftermath of WW2, to prevent the club from reverting back to the club is was in the 20s and 30s. A poorly run football club which was relegated often, threatened with bankruptcy often even struggling to generate enough income to replace the 'Red Rags' that the players had to wear.
If he IS attacking the 'United Way' as pointless, he clearly doesn't know what this is. Its not about a winning way, its about an entertaining, swashbuckling and above all glorious way which got people queueing down the street to pay to watch and be entertained. This is the very basis of what our Club is all about. Vast support income and commercial interest up and down the land and across the world due to its culture. Winning cups is a bonus for proper United fans, which only sometimes comes as a consequence of adopting the United Way blue-print (which hasn't always delivered). But win cups or not, the stadium will always be full and the TV cameras will always be there. The day we reject that culture is the day United will die as the Club that more than any other fans in the World by a country mile, love and know.
posted on 22/6/19
Agree though that following what has been successful should be a good
_______
You should also learn from mistakes from the past and considering what happened post Busby it appears we weren't as ready for the fergie transition as we should have been
posted on 22/6/19
Does he actually define for the reader what he thinks United's culture and philosophy are, and then go on to explain why they are no longer relevant?
posted on 22/6/19
comment by Metro.⚽️ (U6770)
posted 1 hour, 10 minutes ago
Hard to argue with his point and I do see Ole falling into this trap every time he speaks. It’s always honouring the past and getting back to what he believes United ought to be.
Now look, it may prove to be a successful formula. Only time will tell. But I do believe it will act more like a ball and chain on the club.
It’s also hard to shake off a philosophy that garnered so much success. It’s the greatest period in the clubs history. Why would your fans want to change? It’s a question you’ll all have to ask yourself.
I personally believe it’s down to the personnel as opposed to a club led philosophy. Take Jurgen Klopp for example. People could try and replicate his ideas but I don’t think it’s possible. It’s the man himself that’s important.
Ole needs to start thinking of himself as a man dictating the future as opposed to a man honouring the old days.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well put and this is how I feel. Clubs need to adapt and change, we cannot get stuck in the past. City are leaving us behind on and off the field at this moment in time.
posted on 22/6/19
Disagree completely.
The “philosophy” or “culture” actually represent a modus operandi, a blueprint with repeatable, repeated, distinct and very recognizable characteristics which successfully delivered for extended periods under two management regimes.
Forget the sentimentality for a minute. If we hadn’t moved so far away from the blueprint, we wouldn’t be in the mire we’re in now.
posted on 22/6/19
Giggs / Metro, any evidence that he isn't doing this? I'd be amazed if what he takes from Fergie's time isn't more than a set of quite basic principles (attacking, hard-working, togetherness, etc.) and some tips about leadership.
posted on 22/6/19
Does he actually define for the reader what he thinks United's culture and philosophy are, and then go on to explain why they are no longer relevant?
++
Not at all.
posted on 22/6/19
comment by RB&W 'The Judge' (U21434)
posted 3 minutes ago
Does he actually define for the reader what he thinks United's culture and philosophy are, and then go on to explain why they are no longer relevant?
++
Not at all.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This^
posted on 22/6/19
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 11 minutes ago
Giggs / Metro, any evidence that he isn't doing this? I'd be amazed if what he takes from Fergie's time isn't more than a set of quite basic principles (attacking, hard-working, togetherness, etc.) and some tips about leadership.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not so much evidence. But on the balance of what I see and hear, he seems to be a man keen to cast his glance back at what “was good” as opposed to what “could be good”.
posted on 22/6/19
comment by Metro.⚽️ (U6770)
posted 19 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 11 minutes ago
Giggs / Metro, any evidence that he isn't doing this? I'd be amazed if what he takes from Fergie's time isn't more than a set of quite basic principles (attacking, hard-working, togetherness, etc.) and some tips about leadership.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not so much evidence. But on the balance of what I see and hear, he seems to be a man keen to cast his glance back at what “was good” as opposed to what “could be good”.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
But how much have you seen and heard about emulating the past that applies to specifics such as training routines, formations and tactics? What I've heard seems to be much more generalised, in terms of culture, energy and attacking intent.
posted on 22/6/19
His football philosophy is shaped by fergie's influence
Its stands to reason he is going to reference him when hes asked about his plans moving forward
posted on 22/6/19
If you win, talking about the past is used as inspiration, if you lose the past is a burden...
“Imagine Bryan Robson’s reaction to that tangled bed linen.”
I’d imagine he and most of the first team would have been too p*ssed to notice
posted on 23/6/19
I don't think people should underestimate "the United Way" and how we, as supporters, would like us to play. But success invariably leads to romanticism. Trying to repeat the past, in a different era, isn't guaranteed to be successful.
However, what Ed's latest brainwave seems to be, is just to bring guys from the past into positions of leadership, in the hope of fooling fans into expecting the same as the past. Bringing unqualified people into positions of power is crazy. Who was our best leader and captain in the last 30 years? Robson. Second best? Keane. How'd they do in management? The thought of Rio, Fletch and Butt as a three man technical leadership, with Ole at the wheel is terrifying. Because it makes no sense, and is an embarrassment beyond anything Ed has already done imo
Page 1 of 1