Yeah, angles and trajectories won't matter. They just have to try to pinpoint when the ball was struck and the offside line.
An umpire's (linesman's) call area or checking for limbs feels in a way like a fairer way of doing it, yet it's still going to amount to a yes or no because as soon as the linesman puts his flag up it's not going to be overturned anyway for most decisions: The ref surely can't just ignore his linesman and go "well, let's see what happens and come back to it". If we go against that then it leads to more subjectivity or the linesman standing there like a prune flagging while everyone else gets on with it even if someone is miles offside. We could end up with absolute farce. The only way I can see it working well is if the linesman gets a buzzer that goes off like with goal-line technology, but I don't know how realistic that proposition would be.
Maybe you're right and VAR is here to stay, but the game will be worse for it. It's notable to me that the times when people are commenting that VAR is working well is when it isn't being used.
“Maybe you're right and VAR is here to stay, but the game will be worse for it.“
—-/———-
.... in your opinion!
That’s a pretty negative viewpoint. Judge it in a few years and see whether it has improved. The main issue for me is speed.
If you think, however, of those really bad refereeing decisions of the past that have decided the outcome of historic games - we still remember them to this day. We still feel a sense of injustice. If VAR works as it should then they will stay a thing of the past.
I've seen it for years now. Every international tournament I've seen it I end up swearing at the television for some miserable decision it's made - pressure on referees, penalties incorrectly given because of how something looks in slow motion, good tackles not being recognised /despite/ slow motion.
And I've seen it used it rugby as well. I've watched Leicester Tigers matches on the television where they can't stop going over to the video replay to agonise over pass after pass to look for a minor infringement with which to rule out an exciting try. It makes an absolute mockery of the sport. I do not want to see the same thing happening in football, but what I think in theory and see in practise leads me to the shame conclusions: Goal-line technology good; VAR bad.
Yes, it has the ability to clear up howlers. But it takes away so much of the soul of the game in order to do that that it isn't worth it.
In my opinion. But my opinion is that the fun and the joy of the game shouldn't be taken away so that we can fit in a few more cameras and displace (not remove) human error and judgement. The subjectivity that people complain about will remain, just in a different form. People will still feel cheated, just as strongly, but just about different things. I don't want a replay-infested, sanitised game just for the sake of moving the goalposts slightly.
I don't want folk giving in to it just because they think it's new and inevitable, to ignore the problems because they hope they'll go away eventually. They won't and they haven't. But we'll still be stuck with the damn thing because it's FIFA's toy for television audiences, and so that they can present the sport as a progressive, rich game that embraces new things.
Right ok, so the pass forward is determined at the point on contact with the ball. You've got to have some bloody good accurate technology for that and your angles and trajectories would matter, for example if a player falls over and gets in the way of the camera on one side and all you've got is the ball emerging over the top. Anyway it just struck me after watching the Jesus goal ruled offside, we didn't have a clear view of the passing players foot and ball and if the ball is travelling towards the camera how can you know the point of contact. I know it's tiny margins, but that's what we're discussing, so I think I agree we need something like on field decision, because that Jesus goal could have easily been allowed with any sort of decision threshold.
comment by The_Dungeon_Master (U4830)
posted 9 minutes ago
I've seen it for years now. Every international tournament I've seen it I end up swearing at the television for some miserable decision it's made - pressure on referees, penalties incorrectly given because of how something looks in slow motion, good tackles not being recognised /despite/ slow motion.
And I've seen it used it rugby as well. I've watched Leicester Tigers matches on the television where they can't stop going over to the video replay to agonise over pass after pass to look for a minor infringement with which to rule out an exciting try. It makes an absolute mockery of the sport. I do not want to see the same thing happening in football, but what I think in theory and see in practise leads me to the shame conclusions: Goal-line technology good; VAR bad.
Yes, it has the ability to clear up howlers. But it takes away so much of the soul of the game in order to do that that it isn't worth it.
In my opinion. But my opinion is that the fun and the joy of the game shouldn't be taken away so that we can fit in a few more cameras and displace (not remove) human error and judgement. The subjectivity that people complain about will remain, just in a different form. People will still feel cheated, just as strongly, but just about different things. I don't want a replay-infested, sanitised game just for the sake of moving the goalposts slightly.
I don't want folk giving in to it just because they think it's new and inevitable, to ignore the problems because they hope they'll go away eventually. They won't and they haven't. But we'll still be stuck with the damn thing because it's FIFA's toy for television audiences, and so that they can present the sport as a progressive, rich game that embraces new things.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah, but apart from that it’s absolutely superb!
I see and agree with your concerns about the joy VAR has taken out of the game Dunge.
For me though - time will fix this.
People have already pointed out things that will happen, but the sooner we get to the following two things, the better:
1. Instant decisions so the referee can manage the game in real-time
2. Good decisions where the spirit of the game hasn’t been negated through its application
The first requires improvements in the tech, and the second improvements in the rules. They will come.
But for now I’d ask for two instant changes.
Do NOT use VAR to decide to re-take penalties. Let the officials decide.
Do not rule out goals for hand ball unless the goal has been scored with the hand. Change the rule.
That aside, my biggest frustration remains offside. The current rule makes it impossible for a player to stay onside without disadvantaging themselves by remaining a yard behind a defender. In line is in line and it’s stupid to encourage strikers to hold back, handing the advantage to the defender and potentially scoring fewer goals and less excitement.
Offside needs to be clearly offside. Stupid VAR annoys me for this because it punishes perfect runs and ruins the game.
It’s important we debate this strongly and create the case for change. We shouldn’t just accept it’s here and works perfectly fine!
For example Dunge. If technology enables a linesman to get an instant warning of an offside and can raise his flag so all at the ground know, is this a good or bad thing? Like goal line decisions the ref and linesman manage it in real time.
That is where the technology needs to get to. It will I’m sure. Just try and enjoy the ride until then. Because if nothing else it creates some debate and discussion, just like refereeing did.
Don’t get me wrong. I hate what it does at the game. The uncertainty of whether you can truly celebrate a goal is awful and sucks the soul out of it. This is why a glance at the linesman and ref before the election is all you should need. Let’s hope the tech gets there as soon as possible.
comment by Merseysidefox (U4842)
posted 2 hours, 8 minutes ago
...............................Do not rule out goals for hand ball unless the goal has been scored with the hand. Change the rule....................
Mersey - so you were happy with the Thierry Henry handball against Ireland?
All you moaning Minnies should just accept that the rules are good and VAR, after yesterday's match, is indisputably wonderful and will prove to be a tremendous asset to the game.
PS I reserve the right to change my mind after we get shafted by VAR/the rules at the Bridge!
Mersey - so you were happy with the Thierry Henry handball against Ireland?
That would have been ruled out for deliberate hand ball which is still the rule.
I’m saying that the new rule of “any handball in the build up to a goal means a foul and free kick” is wrong. Entirely and utterly stupidly wrong. In my opinion.
I reserve the right to change my mind on this if we happen to win the FA Cup following a disallowed goal for the opposition in the last minute of normal time.
I just hope there is a never a match when BRodgers plays 3 at the back, VAR decides the game and somebody rates all the players 6.5 in Dunge’s ratings thread.
Imagine Joby, if one day someone went as far as to give someone a score of 6.75, only for VAR to correct it to 6.5!!!
comment by Merseysidefox (U4842)
posted 11 hours, 56 minutes ago
Imagine Joby, if one day someone went as far as to give someone a score of 6.75, only for VAR to correct it to 6.5!!!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
comment by Merseysidefox (U4842)
posted 13 hours, 45 minutes ago
Mersey - so you were happy with the Thierry Henry handball against Ireland?
That would have been ruled out for deliberate hand ball which is still the rule.
I’m saying that the new rule of “any handball in the build up to a goal means a foul and free kick” is wrong. Entirely and utterly stupidly wrong. In my opinion.
I reserve the right to change my mind on this if we happen to win the FA Cup following a disallowed goal for the opposition in the last minute of normal time.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nonsense, under your proposed system the Thierry Henry handball would clearly have been considered accidental and the goal would have stood.
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Player ratings vs. Wolves
Page 3 of 3
posted on 12/8/19
Yeah, angles and trajectories won't matter. They just have to try to pinpoint when the ball was struck and the offside line.
An umpire's (linesman's) call area or checking for limbs feels in a way like a fairer way of doing it, yet it's still going to amount to a yes or no because as soon as the linesman puts his flag up it's not going to be overturned anyway for most decisions: The ref surely can't just ignore his linesman and go "well, let's see what happens and come back to it". If we go against that then it leads to more subjectivity or the linesman standing there like a prune flagging while everyone else gets on with it even if someone is miles offside. We could end up with absolute farce. The only way I can see it working well is if the linesman gets a buzzer that goes off like with goal-line technology, but I don't know how realistic that proposition would be.
Maybe you're right and VAR is here to stay, but the game will be worse for it. It's notable to me that the times when people are commenting that VAR is working well is when it isn't being used.
posted on 12/8/19
“Maybe you're right and VAR is here to stay, but the game will be worse for it.“
—-/———-
.... in your opinion!
That’s a pretty negative viewpoint. Judge it in a few years and see whether it has improved. The main issue for me is speed.
If you think, however, of those really bad refereeing decisions of the past that have decided the outcome of historic games - we still remember them to this day. We still feel a sense of injustice. If VAR works as it should then they will stay a thing of the past.
posted on 12/8/19
I've seen it for years now. Every international tournament I've seen it I end up swearing at the television for some miserable decision it's made - pressure on referees, penalties incorrectly given because of how something looks in slow motion, good tackles not being recognised /despite/ slow motion.
And I've seen it used it rugby as well. I've watched Leicester Tigers matches on the television where they can't stop going over to the video replay to agonise over pass after pass to look for a minor infringement with which to rule out an exciting try. It makes an absolute mockery of the sport. I do not want to see the same thing happening in football, but what I think in theory and see in practise leads me to the shame conclusions: Goal-line technology good; VAR bad.
Yes, it has the ability to clear up howlers. But it takes away so much of the soul of the game in order to do that that it isn't worth it.
In my opinion. But my opinion is that the fun and the joy of the game shouldn't be taken away so that we can fit in a few more cameras and displace (not remove) human error and judgement. The subjectivity that people complain about will remain, just in a different form. People will still feel cheated, just as strongly, but just about different things. I don't want a replay-infested, sanitised game just for the sake of moving the goalposts slightly.
I don't want folk giving in to it just because they think it's new and inevitable, to ignore the problems because they hope they'll go away eventually. They won't and they haven't. But we'll still be stuck with the damn thing because it's FIFA's toy for television audiences, and so that they can present the sport as a progressive, rich game that embraces new things.
posted on 12/8/19
Right ok, so the pass forward is determined at the point on contact with the ball. You've got to have some bloody good accurate technology for that and your angles and trajectories would matter, for example if a player falls over and gets in the way of the camera on one side and all you've got is the ball emerging over the top. Anyway it just struck me after watching the Jesus goal ruled offside, we didn't have a clear view of the passing players foot and ball and if the ball is travelling towards the camera how can you know the point of contact. I know it's tiny margins, but that's what we're discussing, so I think I agree we need something like on field decision, because that Jesus goal could have easily been allowed with any sort of decision threshold.
posted on 12/8/19
comment by The_Dungeon_Master (U4830)
posted 9 minutes ago
I've seen it for years now. Every international tournament I've seen it I end up swearing at the television for some miserable decision it's made - pressure on referees, penalties incorrectly given because of how something looks in slow motion, good tackles not being recognised /despite/ slow motion.
And I've seen it used it rugby as well. I've watched Leicester Tigers matches on the television where they can't stop going over to the video replay to agonise over pass after pass to look for a minor infringement with which to rule out an exciting try. It makes an absolute mockery of the sport. I do not want to see the same thing happening in football, but what I think in theory and see in practise leads me to the shame conclusions: Goal-line technology good; VAR bad.
Yes, it has the ability to clear up howlers. But it takes away so much of the soul of the game in order to do that that it isn't worth it.
In my opinion. But my opinion is that the fun and the joy of the game shouldn't be taken away so that we can fit in a few more cameras and displace (not remove) human error and judgement. The subjectivity that people complain about will remain, just in a different form. People will still feel cheated, just as strongly, but just about different things. I don't want a replay-infested, sanitised game just for the sake of moving the goalposts slightly.
I don't want folk giving in to it just because they think it's new and inevitable, to ignore the problems because they hope they'll go away eventually. They won't and they haven't. But we'll still be stuck with the damn thing because it's FIFA's toy for television audiences, and so that they can present the sport as a progressive, rich game that embraces new things.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah, but apart from that it’s absolutely superb!
posted on 12/8/19
I see and agree with your concerns about the joy VAR has taken out of the game Dunge.
For me though - time will fix this.
People have already pointed out things that will happen, but the sooner we get to the following two things, the better:
1. Instant decisions so the referee can manage the game in real-time
2. Good decisions where the spirit of the game hasn’t been negated through its application
The first requires improvements in the tech, and the second improvements in the rules. They will come.
But for now I’d ask for two instant changes.
Do NOT use VAR to decide to re-take penalties. Let the officials decide.
Do not rule out goals for hand ball unless the goal has been scored with the hand. Change the rule.
That aside, my biggest frustration remains offside. The current rule makes it impossible for a player to stay onside without disadvantaging themselves by remaining a yard behind a defender. In line is in line and it’s stupid to encourage strikers to hold back, handing the advantage to the defender and potentially scoring fewer goals and less excitement.
Offside needs to be clearly offside. Stupid VAR annoys me for this because it punishes perfect runs and ruins the game.
It’s important we debate this strongly and create the case for change. We shouldn’t just accept it’s here and works perfectly fine!
posted on 12/8/19
For example Dunge. If technology enables a linesman to get an instant warning of an offside and can raise his flag so all at the ground know, is this a good or bad thing? Like goal line decisions the ref and linesman manage it in real time.
That is where the technology needs to get to. It will I’m sure. Just try and enjoy the ride until then. Because if nothing else it creates some debate and discussion, just like refereeing did.
Don’t get me wrong. I hate what it does at the game. The uncertainty of whether you can truly celebrate a goal is awful and sucks the soul out of it. This is why a glance at the linesman and ref before the election is all you should need. Let’s hope the tech gets there as soon as possible.
posted on 12/8/19
comment by Merseysidefox (U4842)
posted 2 hours, 8 minutes ago
...............................Do not rule out goals for hand ball unless the goal has been scored with the hand. Change the rule....................
Mersey - so you were happy with the Thierry Henry handball against Ireland?
All you moaning Minnies should just accept that the rules are good and VAR, after yesterday's match, is indisputably wonderful and will prove to be a tremendous asset to the game.
PS I reserve the right to change my mind after we get shafted by VAR/the rules at the Bridge!
posted on 12/8/19
Mersey - so you were happy with the Thierry Henry handball against Ireland?
That would have been ruled out for deliberate hand ball which is still the rule.
I’m saying that the new rule of “any handball in the build up to a goal means a foul and free kick” is wrong. Entirely and utterly stupidly wrong. In my opinion.
I reserve the right to change my mind on this if we happen to win the FA Cup following a disallowed goal for the opposition in the last minute of normal time.
posted on 12/8/19
I just hope there is a never a match when BRodgers plays 3 at the back, VAR decides the game and somebody rates all the players 6.5 in Dunge’s ratings thread.
posted on 12/8/19
Imagine Joby, if one day someone went as far as to give someone a score of 6.75, only for VAR to correct it to 6.5!!!
posted on 13/8/19
comment by Merseysidefox (U4842)
posted 11 hours, 56 minutes ago
Imagine Joby, if one day someone went as far as to give someone a score of 6.75, only for VAR to correct it to 6.5!!!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
posted on 13/8/19
comment by Merseysidefox (U4842)
posted 13 hours, 45 minutes ago
Mersey - so you were happy with the Thierry Henry handball against Ireland?
That would have been ruled out for deliberate hand ball which is still the rule.
I’m saying that the new rule of “any handball in the build up to a goal means a foul and free kick” is wrong. Entirely and utterly stupidly wrong. In my opinion.
I reserve the right to change my mind on this if we happen to win the FA Cup following a disallowed goal for the opposition in the last minute of normal time.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nonsense, under your proposed system the Thierry Henry handball would clearly have been considered accidental and the goal would have stood.
Page 3 of 3