Consensus will not be reached here, so the sensible thing is for everybody to simply re-iterate their own personal opinions over and over again.
LUFC, Lawrence and Bennett were fined far more than the Finnish guy. Estimate in excess of £60,000 for Bennett and £120,000 for Lawrence. Plus they then had what the courts asked them to pay on top.
I'm not even disputing what the outcome from the courts was, I'm simply asking why backo thinks it's the same thing as a sober person crashing their car when it comes to moral stance the club takes, I don't care if they got fined the maximum amount their contacts stated, if it was a Leeds player I'd want them out and nothing to do with the club and there should be zero tolerance from the club for this sort of thing.
also if playing them is about retaining their value so that we can flog them when the Window opens I'd argue that you can chop a good 10% off their value each time they turn out be it through lack of fitness or complete lack of actual ability. (neither was good, or worth a place in the team, even last season)
telling them to stay at home and passing around a 30 second highlight reel might make a few clubs think they're better than they really are rather than seeing just seeing the awful reality. (that trick has worked on us many times, see Camara etc.)
comment by lastapostleofvidal (U1491)
posted 37 minutes ago
Jonty, I agree with your general idea but it would be unworkable. There is no chance of clubs agreeing to it. They have too much to lose. Also how would you decide what a player is worth?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And that’s the shame, that at such time when leaders could/should show leadership, they don’t.
You would never please all people by this but if you’re in charge you set the rules fur people to play in your competition. Tribunal could value player at Tim’s if offence, is it perfect? No, but all clubs sign up to it and then maybe you see better ownership of clubs in terms of ensuring players represent their standards ie they stop doing drinking sessions they see if players are drinkers they tell them to stop. It’s not that hard just needs leadership.
As for your earlier comments re leeds players, if a leeds players dies something wrong I expect proper sanctions.
comment by 9earchange (U16914)
posted 30 minutes ago
Also they didn't just crash when drunk.
They crashed, injured the captain of team, and according to the court reports, fled (why?) only to return later.
How did they get away? how did they return?
As I said, at the very least Cocu should go for bringing them back in the team, if we're to keep them, they should not be playing, they've brought shame and disrepute to the club, and a _terrible_ example has been set for all.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Have I missed Chris Wilder getting sacked by Sheffield United???
Why should I care about Sheffield United?
Defending the actions of these by saying 'others have done it' doesn't make it any more justifiable.
As I've said before, I've lost a friend to this kind of reckless behavior before, and seen slaps on the wrists given out there too due to lack of conclusive evidence.
It's a moral issue, the club should not associate themselves with this kind of behavior, and I find the way they're trying to look like they're taking the high ground while actions and choices defy that to be disgusting.
comment by 9earchange (U16914)
posted 27 seconds ago
Why should I care about Sheffield United?
--------------------------------------------------------------
How did I know you was gonna say that???
Easy cop out. Why should Derby County be any different to any other club?
If you find the way the club has dealt with it disgusting then I wouldn't go. Id stay away.
Well I for one like to support a club that I feel is morally in the right.
Derby are not. Sheffield United are not.
My nephews as a result are no longer being taken to any Derby matches, as I feel the club is sending out completely the wrong message. They'll likely end up growing up supporters of some other club, that's the cost to Derby of this if they want to go down this route and I doubt I'm the only one looking at things in this way.
comment by 9earchange (U16914)
posted 5 minutes ago
Well I for one like to support a club that I feel is morally in the right.
Derby are not. Sheffield United are not.
My nephews as a result are no longer being taken to any Derby matches, as I feel the club is sending out completely the wrong message. They'll likely end up growing up supporters of some other club, that's the cost to Derby of this if they want to go down this route and I doubt I'm the only one looking at things in this way.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Good on you. Stick to your principles.
Ill be there Saturday
comment by Outwood White (U9610)
posted 2 hours, 59 minutes ago
The silence by the FA and idiots like Jim White is sickening.
This is far worse than Spygate ..................
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ah, now I understand.
FFS Leeds fans
Outwood white.
We have enforced the maximum possible penalty on all participants. What more do you want us to do, wear sacks, ashes and scourge ourselves?
comment by I'm not Spartacus, hope springs eternal (U4603)
posted 15 minutes ago
Outwood white.
We have enforced the maximum possible penalty on all participants. What more do you want us to do, wear sacks, ashes and scourge ourselves?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, if you’re offering ......
Can't do his job due to his own misadventure. Was even offered a lower wage. Declined it as he felt he was ok to breach his original contract so flippantly and outrageously and continue earning 1.6m per year.
No sympathy here.
So, Derby the club that thinks a little spying is cheating, and they make a big fuss about it. Now thinks that letting criminals play in their team is OK. It matters not one jot that they have sacked a player that was not going to play for them for one and half years anyway, they allow two people that broke many laws on the night to carry on, and they think we will all accept justice has been done. I wonder what the FL think about a club that thinks it's fit and proper for this behaviour ?.
"they think we will all accept justice has been done."
No, actually, Cocu has said publicly that he accepts and understands that some fans will have different opinions.
"I wonder what the FL think about a club that thinks it's fit and proper for this behaviour ?"
The FL will think the same as it has done about every previous player who has been convicted for drink driving or speeding offences, i.e. that it isn't its role to get involved as it is outside of its jurisdiction. The courts will look after the criminal aspect and the employer will decide what punishment is suitable for the employees.
comment by Backo (U1486)
posted 8 hours ago
comment by Wetherby White - (Formally Harrogate) (U6810)
posted 31 minutes ago
comment by Backo (U1486)
posted 18 minutes ago
So every player done for drink driving have been sacked have they??
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No, but they crashed!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
People crash sober. Crashing is not the issue. Bennett didn't crash by the way.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
according to the reports I read, Bennett did crash - into the back of Lawrence, which caused Lawrence's car to crash into the lamppost.
I think the issue for Keogh will hinge on "gross misconduct".
His manager took the team out for a drinking session. None of us know what was said about the role of captain, whether he was just one of the boys and allowed to do what he wanted on that night, or had to look after these 20-something adults as if they were children. FFS, grow up guys! This was after work - down the pub with my boss if he or she tried to tell me to do something I didn't want to I'd tell them to their face what they can command me to do outside work!
What if it they had got on a bus or train or got a taxi and there was a crash and Keogh had the same injury? Would he be sacked for gross misconduct? I have seen latest reports stating the club hold him to a higher standard - that had better be in his contract naming him as captain and that outside work he must be a role model and daddy to all players. Otherwise this court case could go south on Derby very quick.
Keogh - on the face of things - is a victim here, having been injured by the actions of others and through no fault of his own. The club demanded he take a huge wage cut, and then sacked him. I think he will take them for damages as well as being paid up in the courts.
As for the other two?
Why couldn't they be forced to take a massive pay cut? If not,
1. they see out their time training alone,
2. they are not picked for any football,
3. they get given other menial jobs - don;t do them and they are sacked
4. only allowed to be sold if Derby got the amount they wanted. If the offer from the other club did not cover their wages, then Derby had no responsibility to pay up and they needed to agree to that else carry on - limited training alone, menial jobs, no football.
comment by 🎤Mike drop🎤 (U15513)
posted 3 hours, 39 minutes ago
Can't do his job due to his own misadventure. Was even offered a lower wage. Declined it as he felt he was ok to breach his original contract so flippantly and outrageously and continue earning 1.6m per year.
No sympathy here.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No doubt his brief will have assured him that if it goes to court he'll get a higher figure.
Silly carthorse
comment by 🎤Mike drop🎤 (U15513)
posted 3 hours, 52 minutes ago
Can't do his job due to his own misadventure. Was even offered a lower wage. Declined it as he felt he was ok to breach his original contract so flippantly and outrageously and continue earning 1.6m per year.
No sympathy here.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't think anyone has any sympathy for him, it's just people are pointing out the hypocrisy of Derby sacking RK and not the two drivers. Their reasoning isn't because he can't 'do his job':
-----
"As we have said from the outset, the Club will not tolerate any of its players or staff behaving in a manner which puts themselves, their colleagues, and members of the general public at risk of injury or worse, or which brings the club into disrepute.
Flucking Hell, Leeds fans trying to play the morality card.
I think I'd have preferred Brexit tomorrow?
His manager took the team out for a drinking session. None of us know what was said about the role of captain, whether he was just one of the boys and allowed to do what he wanted on that night, or had to look after these 20-something adults as if they were children
___________________
This, this a hundred times, these guys are grown adults, its not up to Keogh to look after them outside of work for christ sakes.
I have no issue with Derby sacking this moron, but to act like this was done for moral reasons is what annoys me.
The idiot got legless and now for the rest of his contract he is legless so we sacked him for breach of contract.
thats it, dont try to sell it as anything other than that.
comment by Scouse (U9675)
posted 1 hour, 16 minutes ago
Flucking Hell, Leeds fans trying to play the morality card.
I think I'd have preferred Brexit tomorrow?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not really, it's your club trying to play the morality card.
I was talking about the FA not the club
It’s not the same as ‘if he got into a taxi and if it crashed would he still be sacked’ it’s totally not the same. He got into a car with drunk drivers and they had an accident and as a result, he got injured. He put himself in that position and as a result, he can’t continue his duty for the club.
Everything else is irrelevant.
Sign in if you want to comment
Richard Keogh sacked by Derby
Page 5 of 7
6 | 7
posted on 31/10/19
Consensus will not be reached here, so the sensible thing is for everybody to simply re-iterate their own personal opinions over and over again.
posted on 31/10/19
LUFC, Lawrence and Bennett were fined far more than the Finnish guy. Estimate in excess of £60,000 for Bennett and £120,000 for Lawrence. Plus they then had what the courts asked them to pay on top.
posted on 31/10/19
I'm not even disputing what the outcome from the courts was, I'm simply asking why backo thinks it's the same thing as a sober person crashing their car when it comes to moral stance the club takes, I don't care if they got fined the maximum amount their contacts stated, if it was a Leeds player I'd want them out and nothing to do with the club and there should be zero tolerance from the club for this sort of thing.
posted on 31/10/19
also if playing them is about retaining their value so that we can flog them when the Window opens I'd argue that you can chop a good 10% off their value each time they turn out be it through lack of fitness or complete lack of actual ability. (neither was good, or worth a place in the team, even last season)
telling them to stay at home and passing around a 30 second highlight reel might make a few clubs think they're better than they really are rather than seeing just seeing the awful reality. (that trick has worked on us many times, see Camara etc.)
posted on 31/10/19
comment by lastapostleofvidal (U1491)
posted 37 minutes ago
Jonty, I agree with your general idea but it would be unworkable. There is no chance of clubs agreeing to it. They have too much to lose. Also how would you decide what a player is worth?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And that’s the shame, that at such time when leaders could/should show leadership, they don’t.
You would never please all people by this but if you’re in charge you set the rules fur people to play in your competition. Tribunal could value player at Tim’s if offence, is it perfect? No, but all clubs sign up to it and then maybe you see better ownership of clubs in terms of ensuring players represent their standards ie they stop doing drinking sessions they see if players are drinkers they tell them to stop. It’s not that hard just needs leadership.
As for your earlier comments re leeds players, if a leeds players dies something wrong I expect proper sanctions.
posted on 31/10/19
comment by 9earchange (U16914)
posted 30 minutes ago
Also they didn't just crash when drunk.
They crashed, injured the captain of team, and according to the court reports, fled (why?) only to return later.
How did they get away? how did they return?
As I said, at the very least Cocu should go for bringing them back in the team, if we're to keep them, they should not be playing, they've brought shame and disrepute to the club, and a _terrible_ example has been set for all.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Have I missed Chris Wilder getting sacked by Sheffield United???
posted on 31/10/19
Why should I care about Sheffield United?
Defending the actions of these by saying 'others have done it' doesn't make it any more justifiable.
As I've said before, I've lost a friend to this kind of reckless behavior before, and seen slaps on the wrists given out there too due to lack of conclusive evidence.
It's a moral issue, the club should not associate themselves with this kind of behavior, and I find the way they're trying to look like they're taking the high ground while actions and choices defy that to be disgusting.
posted on 31/10/19
comment by 9earchange (U16914)
posted 27 seconds ago
Why should I care about Sheffield United?
--------------------------------------------------------------
How did I know you was gonna say that???
Easy cop out. Why should Derby County be any different to any other club?
posted on 31/10/19
If you find the way the club has dealt with it disgusting then I wouldn't go. Id stay away.
posted on 31/10/19
Well I for one like to support a club that I feel is morally in the right.
Derby are not. Sheffield United are not.
My nephews as a result are no longer being taken to any Derby matches, as I feel the club is sending out completely the wrong message. They'll likely end up growing up supporters of some other club, that's the cost to Derby of this if they want to go down this route and I doubt I'm the only one looking at things in this way.
posted on 31/10/19
comment by 9earchange (U16914)
posted 5 minutes ago
Well I for one like to support a club that I feel is morally in the right.
Derby are not. Sheffield United are not.
My nephews as a result are no longer being taken to any Derby matches, as I feel the club is sending out completely the wrong message. They'll likely end up growing up supporters of some other club, that's the cost to Derby of this if they want to go down this route and I doubt I'm the only one looking at things in this way.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Good on you. Stick to your principles.
Ill be there Saturday
posted on 31/10/19
comment by Outwood White (U9610)
posted 2 hours, 59 minutes ago
The silence by the FA and idiots like Jim White is sickening.
This is far worse than Spygate ..................
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ah, now I understand.
FFS Leeds fans
posted on 31/10/19
Outwood white.
We have enforced the maximum possible penalty on all participants. What more do you want us to do, wear sacks, ashes and scourge ourselves?
posted on 31/10/19
comment by I'm not Spartacus, hope springs eternal (U4603)
posted 15 minutes ago
Outwood white.
We have enforced the maximum possible penalty on all participants. What more do you want us to do, wear sacks, ashes and scourge ourselves?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, if you’re offering ......
posted on 31/10/19
Can't do his job due to his own misadventure. Was even offered a lower wage. Declined it as he felt he was ok to breach his original contract so flippantly and outrageously and continue earning 1.6m per year.
No sympathy here.
posted on 31/10/19
So, Derby the club that thinks a little spying is cheating, and they make a big fuss about it. Now thinks that letting criminals play in their team is OK. It matters not one jot that they have sacked a player that was not going to play for them for one and half years anyway, they allow two people that broke many laws on the night to carry on, and they think we will all accept justice has been done. I wonder what the FL think about a club that thinks it's fit and proper for this behaviour ?.
posted on 31/10/19
"they think we will all accept justice has been done."
No, actually, Cocu has said publicly that he accepts and understands that some fans will have different opinions.
"I wonder what the FL think about a club that thinks it's fit and proper for this behaviour ?"
The FL will think the same as it has done about every previous player who has been convicted for drink driving or speeding offences, i.e. that it isn't its role to get involved as it is outside of its jurisdiction. The courts will look after the criminal aspect and the employer will decide what punishment is suitable for the employees.
posted on 31/10/19
comment by Backo (U1486)
posted 8 hours ago
comment by Wetherby White - (Formally Harrogate) (U6810)
posted 31 minutes ago
comment by Backo (U1486)
posted 18 minutes ago
So every player done for drink driving have been sacked have they??
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No, but they crashed!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
People crash sober. Crashing is not the issue. Bennett didn't crash by the way.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
according to the reports I read, Bennett did crash - into the back of Lawrence, which caused Lawrence's car to crash into the lamppost.
I think the issue for Keogh will hinge on "gross misconduct".
His manager took the team out for a drinking session. None of us know what was said about the role of captain, whether he was just one of the boys and allowed to do what he wanted on that night, or had to look after these 20-something adults as if they were children. FFS, grow up guys! This was after work - down the pub with my boss if he or she tried to tell me to do something I didn't want to I'd tell them to their face what they can command me to do outside work!
What if it they had got on a bus or train or got a taxi and there was a crash and Keogh had the same injury? Would he be sacked for gross misconduct? I have seen latest reports stating the club hold him to a higher standard - that had better be in his contract naming him as captain and that outside work he must be a role model and daddy to all players. Otherwise this court case could go south on Derby very quick.
Keogh - on the face of things - is a victim here, having been injured by the actions of others and through no fault of his own. The club demanded he take a huge wage cut, and then sacked him. I think he will take them for damages as well as being paid up in the courts.
As for the other two?
Why couldn't they be forced to take a massive pay cut? If not,
1. they see out their time training alone,
2. they are not picked for any football,
3. they get given other menial jobs - don;t do them and they are sacked
4. only allowed to be sold if Derby got the amount they wanted. If the offer from the other club did not cover their wages, then Derby had no responsibility to pay up and they needed to agree to that else carry on - limited training alone, menial jobs, no football.
posted on 31/10/19
comment by 🎤Mike drop🎤 (U15513)
posted 3 hours, 39 minutes ago
Can't do his job due to his own misadventure. Was even offered a lower wage. Declined it as he felt he was ok to breach his original contract so flippantly and outrageously and continue earning 1.6m per year.
No sympathy here.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No doubt his brief will have assured him that if it goes to court he'll get a higher figure.
Silly carthorse
posted on 31/10/19
comment by 🎤Mike drop🎤 (U15513)
posted 3 hours, 52 minutes ago
Can't do his job due to his own misadventure. Was even offered a lower wage. Declined it as he felt he was ok to breach his original contract so flippantly and outrageously and continue earning 1.6m per year.
No sympathy here.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't think anyone has any sympathy for him, it's just people are pointing out the hypocrisy of Derby sacking RK and not the two drivers. Their reasoning isn't because he can't 'do his job':
-----
"As we have said from the outset, the Club will not tolerate any of its players or staff behaving in a manner which puts themselves, their colleagues, and members of the general public at risk of injury or worse, or which brings the club into disrepute.
posted on 31/10/19
Flucking Hell, Leeds fans trying to play the morality card.
I think I'd have preferred Brexit tomorrow?
posted on 31/10/19
His manager took the team out for a drinking session. None of us know what was said about the role of captain, whether he was just one of the boys and allowed to do what he wanted on that night, or had to look after these 20-something adults as if they were children
___________________
This, this a hundred times, these guys are grown adults, its not up to Keogh to look after them outside of work for christ sakes.
I have no issue with Derby sacking this moron, but to act like this was done for moral reasons is what annoys me.
The idiot got legless and now for the rest of his contract he is legless so we sacked him for breach of contract.
thats it, dont try to sell it as anything other than that.
posted on 31/10/19
comment by Scouse (U9675)
posted 1 hour, 16 minutes ago
Flucking Hell, Leeds fans trying to play the morality card.
I think I'd have preferred Brexit tomorrow?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not really, it's your club trying to play the morality card.
posted on 31/10/19
I was talking about the FA not the club
posted on 31/10/19
It’s not the same as ‘if he got into a taxi and if it crashed would he still be sacked’ it’s totally not the same. He got into a car with drunk drivers and they had an accident and as a result, he got injured. He put himself in that position and as a result, he can’t continue his duty for the club.
Everything else is irrelevant.
Page 5 of 7
6 | 7