comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 1 minute ago
Busby (U19985)
You think the Prime Minister shouldn't give any opinion about a referendum that will define a generation?
Seriously?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The main problem with Labour's position is that surely no Leave voter sees his proposal as in any way equitable? It'll be a choice between staying in the EU and not being technically in the EU but accepting all their laws.
But the whole thing just raises more questions throughout.
The_Dungeon_Master (U4830)
It's a very good point.
If Corbyn has a majority then it doesn't matter - he can choose to do what he wants.
If he has to form a coalition then whatever he puts on the ballot paper won't satisfy the leave side of things.
comment by The_Dungeon_Master (U4830)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 1 minute ago
Busby (U19985)
You think the Prime Minister shouldn't give any opinion about a referendum that will define a generation?
Seriously?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The main problem with Labour's position is that surely no Leave voter sees his proposal as in any way equitable? It'll be a choice between staying in the EU and not being technically in the EU but accepting all their laws.
But the whole thing just raises more questions throughout.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The UK continuing to follow EU regulations etc was always a given despite all the nonsense of 'take back control'
Winston - I was thinking earlier that maybe Labour - if they want to be the party of referendum 2 - might have been better served to offer the direct choice between the Boris deal and Remain. At least that would be a credible Leave option on the ballot then and few would feel like they've been entirely cast aside by the policy even if they don't like it.
Too late now of course, and as you say lots of other variables and considerations.
Stuart Pearce - To an extent, but with the option to diverge in the future depending on how things suit. Having the choice is the key, even if the initial choice is to stay in line for a decade or longer.
comment by The_Dungeon_Master (U4830)
posted 1 minute ago
Winston - I was thinking earlier that maybe Labour - if they want to be the party of referendum 2 - might have been better served to offer the direct choice between the Boris deal and Remain. At least that would be a credible Leave option on the ballot then and few would feel like they've been entirely cast aside by the policy even if they don't like it.
Too late now of course, and as you say lots of other variables and considerations.
Stuart Pearce - To an extent, but with the option to diverge in the future depending on how things suit. Having the choice is the key, even if the initial choice is to stay in line for a decade or longer.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The government (not for the first time) have been extremely circumspect on their divergence objectives.
I.e. Which sectors do they consider deviating from common EU regulatory regime would benefit the UK. And how the resulting non-tariff barriers would impact EU/UK commerce.
Divergence might have been possible (to an extent) if NI didn’t share an open land border with the EU but as we know this was given next to no consideration when the referendum was being considered.
Hate Labour for what Blair & Brown did to the nation.
++
But you are still happy with the depths which Cameron Osborne, May and now Boris nave dragged us down to.
You really couldn't make this up.
But it seems you just have.
What depths have they dragged us to?
comment by Boss By Hugo (U18550)
posted 53 minutes ago
comment by Busby (U19985)
posted 1 minute ago
I don't see why Corbyn need campaign on the referendum to be honest. I quite like the idea of a PM who is balanced and looks at both perspectives, so long as he fulfils what the public vote for.
Boris is a lying piece of shte and I've no idea who can still back the Tories. I'd never usually vote for Labour (and I still wouldn't by choice, but for wasting my vote) but I'm sick of the lies and false promises. If Boris truly believed in Brexit and this deal, he'd have back May, better yet he would have taken the seat after Cameron fecked off.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The problem is Corbyn isn't actually balanced he just wants to look fair (which is still better than what Johnson is doing) but it doesn't mean it's the right approach.
A balanced PM would put the vote and whatever is decided will use the right people around him to drive the needed changes. In Corbyn, he is ultimately a remainer so if the public votes to leave again his negotiations will be compromised because deep down he doesn't want it to happen.
What I hate about these parties and politicians is that they become extremes of each policy in order to go against the other. What the country needs is a party or politician that is comfortable is swaying between a conservative and a democratic approach situationally.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Agree on all of this.
Although i believe referendum would result in us staying in the EU. People now understand what they're voting for.
comment by Big McTominay (U22257)
posted 34 minutes ago
What depths have they dragged us to?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe you've missed the last 3 odd years?
Without going into too much detail the Tory government, and their dogmatic interpretation of a knife edge binary choice, has led to political chaos and public divisions, which may take a generation to resolve.
Those depths.
comment by Martial FC (U11781)
posted 2 hours, 27 minutes ago
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 8 minutes ago
I do not trust Labour & JC to run the finances of this country.
While there is a need to reinvest in the Country's public services and infrastructure this should not be done at the cost of destabilising the economy through massive levels of borrowing.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you know the Tories have plunged us into the highest national debt for 20 years? And you think they’re fecking savvy with our economy?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
and this despite austerity! Where would we be if we'd borrowed our way out of the crisis as some advocated....up near the debt levels of 5% of GDP which has historically lead us to financial ruin (financial crisis of 1976 when the IMF had to bail out a a Labour Govt. who had spent wildly. Part of the conditions of that bail out were significant reductions in public spending.)
Michael Gove from earlier today playing out the Steve Bannon (double down and attack the integrity of the interviewer) defence/approach to getting misinformation into the public psyche:
https://youtu.be/NO2zT9-B2X4
Strange times...
I don’t have an issue with a pm staying neutral in a referendum, in fact I think they should do if it is about a potential policy that isn’t part of the manifesto.
I don’t agree with referendums in general though with our current political makeup. It works much better in countries that are used to more cross party working.
comment by Big McTominay (U22257)
posted 34 minutes ago
What depths have they dragged us to?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe you've missed the last 3 odd years?
Without going into too much detail the Tory government, and their dogmatic interpretation of a knife edge binary choice, has led to political chaos and public divisions, which may take a generation to resolve.
Those depths.
+++
I wasn't going to bother to explain this to RDD, so well done for trying..You missed the bit about the probability of their post Brexit destruction of the United Kingdom.
Maybe I should have drawn pictures for him to geddit better.
comment by RB&W 'The Judge' (U21434)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Big McTominay (U22257)
posted 34 minutes ago
What depths have they dragged us to?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe you've missed the last 3 odd years?
Without going into too much detail the Tory government, and their dogmatic interpretation of a knife edge binary choice, has led to political chaos and public divisions, which may take a generation to resolve.
Those depths.
+++
I wasn't going to bother to explain this to RDD, so well done for trying..You missed the bit about the probability of their post Brexit destruction of the United Kingdom.
Maybe I should have drawn pictures for him to geddit better.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Brexit came about because of Blairs support for free movement. Maybe i should draw you a picture.
Brexit came about because of Blairs support for free movement.
+++
hahhahah
You really are quite thick, aren't you?
comment by Big McTominay (U22257)
posted 16 minutes ago
comment by RB&W 'The Judge' (U21434)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Big McTominay (U22257)
posted 34 minutes ago
What depths have they dragged us to?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe you've missed the last 3 odd years?
Without going into too much detail the Tory government, and their dogmatic interpretation of a knife edge binary choice, has led to political chaos and public divisions, which may take a generation to resolve.
Those depths.
+++
I wasn't going to bother to explain this to RDD, so well done for trying..You missed the bit about the probability of their post Brexit destruction of the United Kingdom.
Maybe I should have drawn pictures for him to geddit better.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Brexit came about because of Blairs support for free movement. Maybe i should draw you a picture.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's factually incorrect.
FoM (goods, services, labour and capital) was part of the Maastricht treaty which was signed in 1992. Long before Tony Blair came to office.
It was co-authored by the UK conservative government to ensure UK services could be exported throughout Europe as they had been domestically.
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/factsheets/en/sheet/147/free-movement-of-persons
When the Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Slovakia and Slovenia joined the EU in 2004 many EU nationals from these countries chose to come to the UK.
https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/history/2000-2009_en
Maybe you should read a book?
I'm talking about 2004 when 10 new members joined the EU and Blair decided, unlike other members, not to impose any restrictions on movements from these nations.
comment by RB&W 'The Judge' (U21434)
posted 20 minutes ago
Brexit came about because of Blairs support for free movement.
+++
hahhahah
You really are quite thick, aren't you?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I didn't say he instigated it you moron. He supported it
comment by Big McTominay (U22257)
posted 1 minute ago
I'm talking about 2004 when 10 new members joined the EU and Blair decided, unlike other members, not to impose any restrictions on movements from these nations.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It was the UK parliament who chose not to enforce the EU citizens directive in full, (3mth residency etc) as in doing so would harm the UK's labour market.
Not a huge fan of Blair but to hold him solely accountable for FoM is a distortion of the truth.
Ironically the EU was the party scapegoated for this policy which led to the rise of Ukip etc.
RDD, have you ever heard of the phrase Euroscepticism?
This has plagued British politics since the 1970s when we first joined this club. It is a trait of both parties and their supporters the on the left wing and the right wing of the political spectrum.
This is why today, we have Brexit.
comment by Big McTominay (U22257)
posted 4 hours, 43 minutes ago
I'm talking about 2004 when 10 new members joined the EU and Blair decided, unlike other members, not to impose any restrictions on movements from these nations.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is nonsense.
History shows that no one was discussing EU membership until the Conservatives decided to announce a referendum.
comment by meltonblue (U10617)
posted 14 hours, 21 minutes ago
I don’t have an issue with a pm staying neutral in a referendum, in fact I think they should do if it is about a potential policy that isn’t part of the manifesto.
I don’t agree with referendums in general though with our current political makeup. It works much better in countries that are used to more cross party working.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Genuinely amazed by this.
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 38 minutes ago
comment by Big McTominay (U22257)
posted 4 hours, 43 minutes ago
I'm talking about 2004 when 10 new members joined the EU and Blair decided, unlike other members, not to impose any restrictions on movements from these nations.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is nonsense.
History shows that no one was discussing EU membership until the Conservatives decided to announce a referendum.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Why did they offer a referendum?
Why did they offer a referendum?
++
cos they thought they would win
comment by Big McTominay (U22257)
posted 10 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 38 minutes ago
comment by Big McTominay (U22257)
posted 4 hours, 43 minutes ago
I'm talking about 2004 when 10 new members joined the EU and Blair decided, unlike other members, not to impose any restrictions on movements from these nations.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is nonsense.
History shows that no one was discussing EU membership until the Conservatives decided to announce a referendum.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Why did they offer a referendum?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Because they felt they were losing votes to UKIP and wanted to bury the issue of migration.
I'm not denying that migration was seen as an issue, but the truth is that people weren't linking that with us needing to leave the EU.
Sign in if you want to comment
Off topic - TV debate
Page 3 of 4
posted on 20/11/19
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 1 minute ago
Busby (U19985)
You think the Prime Minister shouldn't give any opinion about a referendum that will define a generation?
Seriously?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The main problem with Labour's position is that surely no Leave voter sees his proposal as in any way equitable? It'll be a choice between staying in the EU and not being technically in the EU but accepting all their laws.
But the whole thing just raises more questions throughout.
posted on 20/11/19
The_Dungeon_Master (U4830)
It's a very good point.
If Corbyn has a majority then it doesn't matter - he can choose to do what he wants.
If he has to form a coalition then whatever he puts on the ballot paper won't satisfy the leave side of things.
posted on 20/11/19
comment by The_Dungeon_Master (U4830)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 1 minute ago
Busby (U19985)
You think the Prime Minister shouldn't give any opinion about a referendum that will define a generation?
Seriously?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The main problem with Labour's position is that surely no Leave voter sees his proposal as in any way equitable? It'll be a choice between staying in the EU and not being technically in the EU but accepting all their laws.
But the whole thing just raises more questions throughout.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The UK continuing to follow EU regulations etc was always a given despite all the nonsense of 'take back control'
posted on 20/11/19
Winston - I was thinking earlier that maybe Labour - if they want to be the party of referendum 2 - might have been better served to offer the direct choice between the Boris deal and Remain. At least that would be a credible Leave option on the ballot then and few would feel like they've been entirely cast aside by the policy even if they don't like it.
Too late now of course, and as you say lots of other variables and considerations.
Stuart Pearce - To an extent, but with the option to diverge in the future depending on how things suit. Having the choice is the key, even if the initial choice is to stay in line for a decade or longer.
posted on 20/11/19
comment by The_Dungeon_Master (U4830)
posted 1 minute ago
Winston - I was thinking earlier that maybe Labour - if they want to be the party of referendum 2 - might have been better served to offer the direct choice between the Boris deal and Remain. At least that would be a credible Leave option on the ballot then and few would feel like they've been entirely cast aside by the policy even if they don't like it.
Too late now of course, and as you say lots of other variables and considerations.
Stuart Pearce - To an extent, but with the option to diverge in the future depending on how things suit. Having the choice is the key, even if the initial choice is to stay in line for a decade or longer.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The government (not for the first time) have been extremely circumspect on their divergence objectives.
I.e. Which sectors do they consider deviating from common EU regulatory regime would benefit the UK. And how the resulting non-tariff barriers would impact EU/UK commerce.
Divergence might have been possible (to an extent) if NI didn’t share an open land border with the EU but as we know this was given next to no consideration when the referendum was being considered.
posted on 20/11/19
Hate Labour for what Blair & Brown did to the nation.
++
But you are still happy with the depths which Cameron Osborne, May and now Boris nave dragged us down to.
You really couldn't make this up.
But it seems you just have.
posted on 20/11/19
What depths have they dragged us to?
posted on 20/11/19
comment by Boss By Hugo (U18550)
posted 53 minutes ago
comment by Busby (U19985)
posted 1 minute ago
I don't see why Corbyn need campaign on the referendum to be honest. I quite like the idea of a PM who is balanced and looks at both perspectives, so long as he fulfils what the public vote for.
Boris is a lying piece of shte and I've no idea who can still back the Tories. I'd never usually vote for Labour (and I still wouldn't by choice, but for wasting my vote) but I'm sick of the lies and false promises. If Boris truly believed in Brexit and this deal, he'd have back May, better yet he would have taken the seat after Cameron fecked off.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The problem is Corbyn isn't actually balanced he just wants to look fair (which is still better than what Johnson is doing) but it doesn't mean it's the right approach.
A balanced PM would put the vote and whatever is decided will use the right people around him to drive the needed changes. In Corbyn, he is ultimately a remainer so if the public votes to leave again his negotiations will be compromised because deep down he doesn't want it to happen.
What I hate about these parties and politicians is that they become extremes of each policy in order to go against the other. What the country needs is a party or politician that is comfortable is swaying between a conservative and a democratic approach situationally.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Agree on all of this.
Although i believe referendum would result in us staying in the EU. People now understand what they're voting for.
posted on 20/11/19
comment by Big McTominay (U22257)
posted 34 minutes ago
What depths have they dragged us to?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe you've missed the last 3 odd years?
Without going into too much detail the Tory government, and their dogmatic interpretation of a knife edge binary choice, has led to political chaos and public divisions, which may take a generation to resolve.
Those depths.
posted on 20/11/19
comment by Martial FC (U11781)
posted 2 hours, 27 minutes ago
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 8 minutes ago
I do not trust Labour & JC to run the finances of this country.
While there is a need to reinvest in the Country's public services and infrastructure this should not be done at the cost of destabilising the economy through massive levels of borrowing.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you know the Tories have plunged us into the highest national debt for 20 years? And you think they’re fecking savvy with our economy?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
and this despite austerity! Where would we be if we'd borrowed our way out of the crisis as some advocated....up near the debt levels of 5% of GDP which has historically lead us to financial ruin (financial crisis of 1976 when the IMF had to bail out a a Labour Govt. who had spent wildly. Part of the conditions of that bail out were significant reductions in public spending.)
posted on 20/11/19
Michael Gove from earlier today playing out the Steve Bannon (double down and attack the integrity of the interviewer) defence/approach to getting misinformation into the public psyche:
https://youtu.be/NO2zT9-B2X4
Strange times...
posted on 20/11/19
I don’t have an issue with a pm staying neutral in a referendum, in fact I think they should do if it is about a potential policy that isn’t part of the manifesto.
I don’t agree with referendums in general though with our current political makeup. It works much better in countries that are used to more cross party working.
posted on 21/11/19
comment by Big McTominay (U22257)
posted 34 minutes ago
What depths have they dragged us to?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe you've missed the last 3 odd years?
Without going into too much detail the Tory government, and their dogmatic interpretation of a knife edge binary choice, has led to political chaos and public divisions, which may take a generation to resolve.
Those depths.
+++
I wasn't going to bother to explain this to RDD, so well done for trying..You missed the bit about the probability of their post Brexit destruction of the United Kingdom.
Maybe I should have drawn pictures for him to geddit better.
posted on 21/11/19
comment by RB&W 'The Judge' (U21434)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Big McTominay (U22257)
posted 34 minutes ago
What depths have they dragged us to?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe you've missed the last 3 odd years?
Without going into too much detail the Tory government, and their dogmatic interpretation of a knife edge binary choice, has led to political chaos and public divisions, which may take a generation to resolve.
Those depths.
+++
I wasn't going to bother to explain this to RDD, so well done for trying..You missed the bit about the probability of their post Brexit destruction of the United Kingdom.
Maybe I should have drawn pictures for him to geddit better.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Brexit came about because of Blairs support for free movement. Maybe i should draw you a picture.
posted on 21/11/19
Brexit came about because of Blairs support for free movement.
+++
hahhahah
You really are quite thick, aren't you?
posted on 21/11/19
comment by Big McTominay (U22257)
posted 16 minutes ago
comment by RB&W 'The Judge' (U21434)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Big McTominay (U22257)
posted 34 minutes ago
What depths have they dragged us to?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe you've missed the last 3 odd years?
Without going into too much detail the Tory government, and their dogmatic interpretation of a knife edge binary choice, has led to political chaos and public divisions, which may take a generation to resolve.
Those depths.
+++
I wasn't going to bother to explain this to RDD, so well done for trying..You missed the bit about the probability of their post Brexit destruction of the United Kingdom.
Maybe I should have drawn pictures for him to geddit better.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Brexit came about because of Blairs support for free movement. Maybe i should draw you a picture.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's factually incorrect.
FoM (goods, services, labour and capital) was part of the Maastricht treaty which was signed in 1992. Long before Tony Blair came to office.
It was co-authored by the UK conservative government to ensure UK services could be exported throughout Europe as they had been domestically.
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/factsheets/en/sheet/147/free-movement-of-persons
When the Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Slovakia and Slovenia joined the EU in 2004 many EU nationals from these countries chose to come to the UK.
https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/history/2000-2009_en
Maybe you should read a book?
posted on 21/11/19
I'm talking about 2004 when 10 new members joined the EU and Blair decided, unlike other members, not to impose any restrictions on movements from these nations.
posted on 21/11/19
comment by RB&W 'The Judge' (U21434)
posted 20 minutes ago
Brexit came about because of Blairs support for free movement.
+++
hahhahah
You really are quite thick, aren't you?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I didn't say he instigated it you moron. He supported it
posted on 21/11/19
comment by Big McTominay (U22257)
posted 1 minute ago
I'm talking about 2004 when 10 new members joined the EU and Blair decided, unlike other members, not to impose any restrictions on movements from these nations.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It was the UK parliament who chose not to enforce the EU citizens directive in full, (3mth residency etc) as in doing so would harm the UK's labour market.
Not a huge fan of Blair but to hold him solely accountable for FoM is a distortion of the truth.
Ironically the EU was the party scapegoated for this policy which led to the rise of Ukip etc.
posted on 21/11/19
RDD, have you ever heard of the phrase Euroscepticism?
This has plagued British politics since the 1970s when we first joined this club. It is a trait of both parties and their supporters the on the left wing and the right wing of the political spectrum.
This is why today, we have Brexit.
posted on 21/11/19
comment by Big McTominay (U22257)
posted 4 hours, 43 minutes ago
I'm talking about 2004 when 10 new members joined the EU and Blair decided, unlike other members, not to impose any restrictions on movements from these nations.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is nonsense.
History shows that no one was discussing EU membership until the Conservatives decided to announce a referendum.
posted on 21/11/19
comment by meltonblue (U10617)
posted 14 hours, 21 minutes ago
I don’t have an issue with a pm staying neutral in a referendum, in fact I think they should do if it is about a potential policy that isn’t part of the manifesto.
I don’t agree with referendums in general though with our current political makeup. It works much better in countries that are used to more cross party working.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Genuinely amazed by this.
posted on 21/11/19
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 38 minutes ago
comment by Big McTominay (U22257)
posted 4 hours, 43 minutes ago
I'm talking about 2004 when 10 new members joined the EU and Blair decided, unlike other members, not to impose any restrictions on movements from these nations.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is nonsense.
History shows that no one was discussing EU membership until the Conservatives decided to announce a referendum.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Why did they offer a referendum?
posted on 21/11/19
Why did they offer a referendum?
++
cos they thought they would win
posted on 21/11/19
comment by Big McTominay (U22257)
posted 10 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 38 minutes ago
comment by Big McTominay (U22257)
posted 4 hours, 43 minutes ago
I'm talking about 2004 when 10 new members joined the EU and Blair decided, unlike other members, not to impose any restrictions on movements from these nations.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is nonsense.
History shows that no one was discussing EU membership until the Conservatives decided to announce a referendum.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Why did they offer a referendum?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Because they felt they were losing votes to UKIP and wanted to bury the issue of migration.
I'm not denying that migration was seen as an issue, but the truth is that people weren't linking that with us needing to leave the EU.
Page 3 of 4