Daz you guys are probably missing out on targets because they don’t want to play for a joke manager. Honestly, what top, ambitious footballer in the prime of his career would want to sign for that guy?
The lure of United and the money involved is hard enough to turn down without throwing in the opportunity to play for a manager like Poch
comment by Mason The King Greenwood (U10026)
posted 2 minutes ago
He’ll have similar problems at United just with a larger budget. I.e. Not getting targets and being able to move on unwanted players.
That was ultimately what led to things turning to shiiiiiit at Spurs. I’d be surprised if he’d want a similar situation at a club where it’d be far more damaging to his reputation as a manager.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That’s true but we are still Manchester United and he may well have an ego that thinks he can do what others failed to do
It’s completely true. And no I didn’t want Mourinho, but he was also the best manager we’ve had since Fergie and delivered the best results. Point was that despite being sacked he still came in and improved the team. You denied that would happen. And you’ve also argued Poch won’t do that on the basis of his sacking at Spurs. Which is again, a stupid argument. But then it’s your m.o., so I don’t know why I’m even bothering to respond.
It’s not just because of management, it’s a lot to do with Woodward’s incompetence. I don’t doubt that Ole being the coach will have an impact on certain transfer targets, but again when you have the lack of ambition at board level and lack of competence the coach is going to have massive problems despite budget - and this has proven to be the case for all our coaches since Fergie.
I wouldn’t rule it out completely. United is a big pull. But I wouldn’t be surprised if he turned us down, because it’d be a bad job for him to take on right now.
It is odd how (some) people don’t apply the context to Poch’s time at Spurs and how the sacking wasn’t quite all his fault and how it doesn’t really put too much of a dent in his rep. Many spurs fans still talk highly of him and rightly so as he worked some miracles
Daz - yea, Woodward is obviously another clown that needs to be dealt with but I really can’t see that putting off Poch when he had to deal with Levy. I mean, there is signing average players for triple their value and then there is Levy who just doesn’t let you sign anybody at all
The ups and downs in managerial careers, even stellar ones, suggest to me that at the top of the game it's less about ability and more about being in the right context. Some managers have shone in certain circumstances and been utterly unable to arrest a team in freefall elsewhere. Pochettino's sacking (like Klopp's early career relegation) doesn't mean he's a desperately flawed manager, but it is a useful reminder that there's no managerial stardust that works at every club all the time. And there's no managerial talent that's a long-term alternative to having a coherently run club with decisions being made by qualified people at the right levels of seniority and everyone pushing in the same direction. Funnily enough, top managers tend to have the best spells in their careers while working for those types of clubs.
I'm not really making a Solskjaer argument here, but musing on a wider point. However, this viewpoint does contribute to my cautiousness about the notion that we can bring in a replacement and hope for things to get significantly better.
We’ll have to wait and see. I’m not even fussed about getting him anyway. I do think he’s probably the best fit to get the club competing again, but I’m more concerned about the style of our football than our results, and Pochettino’s teams don’t really excite me.
comment by Bats (U18355)
posted 3 minutes ago
Daz - yea, Woodward is obviously another clown that needs to be dealt with but I really can’t see that putting off Poch when he had to deal with Levy. I mean, there is signing average players for triple their value and then there is Levy who just doesn’t let you sign anybody at all
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The financial constraints probably contribute to Spurs being so much better than us at driving great return on investment. Levy (who I assume himself operates under constraints around how much he can invest) is a vastly superior chief exec to Woodward when it comes to running the footballing business.
It’s completely true. And no I didn’t want Mourinho, but he was also the best manager we’ve had since Fergie and delivered the best results
.....
Yes he won the trophies but at what cost. These were the concerns I had.
Sanchez, Pogba, Matic, Lindelof, Lukaku ......and then the third season melt down where he peed everyone off.
I don’t support United just for the trophies. We should have gone the rebuild option after the failure of LVG.
......
Point was that despite being sacked he still came in and improved the team. You denied that would happen
......
I don’t recall saying Jose wouldn’t improve the team. Feel free to post where I said that and I will hold my hand up.
And look where we were when he was sacked. Worse off than when he started. We were not playing any better than we were under LVG. I have seen you use that same argument against Robb by the way.
I have also seen you say similar things I have said about Poch to the Spurs fans. I even backed you up on it.
“Miracles”
“A special manager”
“The opportunity to play for a manager like Poch”
As I’ve said, I like Pochettino and would welcome him at Old Trafford, but these are glowing terms with which to describe him and it’s hard to see exactly what they’re based on.
RR, those are fair points. But on the expectation of improvement the club has already shown it can improve despite the poor decision making at the top. From Moyes, to LVG to Mourinho there was either significant, or gradual, improvements on the pitch and in the squad.
We’ve now gone back to the Moyes phase. I’ve no doubt a better qualified coach will make better signings and get more from his players just as LVG and then Mourinho after him did.
All that said, I just want someone that can give us entertaining football. Which is why I want Ole replaced as our football is just as bad to watch as it has been under previous management.
but I’m more concerned about the style of our football than our results, and Pochettino’s teams don’t really excite me
......
This is also another concern of mine and we have both discussed this before.
Who would you like to see the next manager be, VC? Regardless of time frame before Ole’s sacked (and he will be).
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 3 minutes ago
The ups and downs in managerial careers, even stellar ones, suggest to me that at the top of the game it's less about ability and more about being in the right context. Some managers have shone in certain circumstances and been utterly unable to arrest a team in freefall elsewhere. Pochettino's sacking (like Klopp's early career relegation) doesn't mean he's a desperately flawed manager, but it is a useful reminder that there's no managerial stardust that works at every club all the time. And there's no managerial talent that's a long-term alternative to having a coherently run club with decisions being made by qualified people at the right levels of seniority and everyone pushing in the same direction. Funnily enough, top managers tend to have the best spells in their careers while working for those types of clubs.
I'm not really making a Solskjaer argument here, but musing on a wider point. However, this viewpoint does contribute to my cautiousness about the notion that we can bring in a replacement and hope for things to get significantly better.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Talking about Klopp's relegation with Mainz is a little disingenuous. We're talking about him guiding a team who had been in the relegation zone one division down, to safety, implementing his methods and narrowly missing out on promotion the following two years,then getting promoted the year after, with a team that had never reached the Bundesliga in their history. He then guided them to respectable finishes in the league despite having the lowest budget and the smallest stadium in the division. After a few seasons of keeping them above water they were finally relegated. All this was whilst having his team played in a set style drawing plaudits from all over the country. Probably similar to what Rodgers did with Swansea, for a comparison. This wasn't seen as a failure, considering Dortmund then appointed him.
If you compare that to Solskjaer for example, he managed Cardiff, got them relegated and they were on their way to being relegated again the following season before he was sacked. He was offered jobs in Norway.
Completely different. One did a great job at a club fighting way above their station, bringing them the furthest they'd ever been in their history. One did a poor job, despite having a team not good enough for the PL but one who should have been much better than they were in the Championship.
It's a lazy comparison, for me. Sometimes managers aren't very good. Saying yeah but once upon a time such and such was regarded as being not very good isn't a great argument.
comment by Mason The King Greenwood (U10026)
posted 12 minutes ago
Who would you like to see the next manager be, VC? Regardless of time frame before Ole’s sacked (and he will be).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don’t really know Dazza. The best ones are not going to leave their current jobs.
This is where I stand right now.
1. I think Ole should be given the rest of this season unless things go really bad. If he doesn’t strengthen the midfield in this window than you won’t see me being against him being sacked unless it is clearly down to Ed.
2. Of the current options if he was sacked right now then Poch is the best that we can go for. My concerns on him are much the same as yours. But I wouldn’t be against appointing him either.
3. So long as the real issues at the club remain unaddressed I do feel we are going to keep playing managerial merry-go-round. And by that I mean the removal of Ed from anything to do with football.
TOOR, do you have some automatic alert to wade in and defend LFC if certain keywords are triggered?
If you read my actual comment, you should see that I'm not making the lazy argument you've detected. I'm not saying there aren't great managers and poor managers. Klopp was mentioned (because he's a great manager) to strengthen the point that Pochettino's recent failure doesn't mean he's not a fine manager. The actual point I wanted to make was about the importance of structure and circumstances in contributing to success. E.g. there's no question Klopp is brilliant at what he does and would improve United, but I suspect he'd be less successful here than at Liverpool because yours is a well run club and ours isn't.
VC
On the manager merry-go-round I think that would be the case even if we were better run, it’s just the reality of football.
I actually think one of our biggest problems is that we are too slow to react to poor management. We’ve essentially written off years in a footballing sense by our inability to forsee clear problems and react to save a season. This also effects subsequent seasons due to the failures of those particular seasons.
I do think we’ve reached a stage this season where we are facked whatever we do regarding the manager (because I don’t see Poch taking it right now). But this is so often becoming the problem at United because we are too slow to react.
comment by Mason The King Greenwood (U10026)
posted 3 minutes ago
VC
On the manager merry-go-round I think that would be the case even if we were better run, it’s just the reality of football.
I actually think one of our biggest problems is that we are too slow to react to poor management. We’ve essentially written off years in a footballing sense by our inability to forsee clear problems and react to save a season. This also effects subsequent seasons due to the failures of those particular seasons.
I do think we’ve reached a stage this season where we are facked whatever we do regarding the manager (because I don’t see Poch taking it right now). But this is so often becoming the problem at United because we are too slow to react.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Solskjaer having been made permanent, at what stage would you have sacked him?
I probably wouldn’t have. I’m actually indifferent about sacking him during this season because we’d be replacing one interim coach with another.
But that shouldn’t detract from my overall point about our reluctance to react to bad management. Moyes, LVG and Mourinho all really should have been sacked earlier than they should. We might have salvaged more from the season had we done some. Especially regarding CL qualification, which impacts us the next season and thereafter.
These poor decisions have been cumulative and led to this mess we are currently in.
We should never have given the job to Ole when we did. There was no need to. It would have been better to have let the season run out and then make the judgement on whether to give him the job.
I would bet that most of those saying ‘sign him up’ after the PSG game are those wanting him to be sacked right now.
I would bet that most of those saying ‘sign him up’ after the PSG game are those wanting him to be sacked right now.
---------------------
You are spot on with that one. I've pointed this out before. Gives you massive indication as to who the knee-jerk individuals are.
"On the manager merry-go-round I think that would be the case even if we were better run, it’s just the reality of football"
----
underacted comment
all the top clubs change managers constantly, we were spoilt with SAF
comment by -bloodred- (U1222)
posted 2 minutes ago
I would bet that most of those saying ‘sign him up’ after the PSG game are those wanting him to be sacked right now.
---------------------
You are spot on with that one. I've pointed this out before. Gives you massive indication as to who the knee-jerk individuals are.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
How is it knee jerk after the PSG game? That was the culmination of a very good run of results. I’d be worried if people who were doubters didn’t think he deserved the job based on all that.
And again, it’s not hugely strange or even wrong to revise that opinion based on what came after which has been very poor
Sign in if you want to comment
Bruno Fernandes
Page 8 of 23
9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13
posted on 3/1/20
Daz you guys are probably missing out on targets because they don’t want to play for a joke manager. Honestly, what top, ambitious footballer in the prime of his career would want to sign for that guy?
The lure of United and the money involved is hard enough to turn down without throwing in the opportunity to play for a manager like Poch
posted on 3/1/20
comment by Mason The King Greenwood (U10026)
posted 2 minutes ago
He’ll have similar problems at United just with a larger budget. I.e. Not getting targets and being able to move on unwanted players.
That was ultimately what led to things turning to shiiiiiit at Spurs. I’d be surprised if he’d want a similar situation at a club where it’d be far more damaging to his reputation as a manager.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That’s true but we are still Manchester United and he may well have an ego that thinks he can do what others failed to do
posted on 3/1/20
It’s completely true. And no I didn’t want Mourinho, but he was also the best manager we’ve had since Fergie and delivered the best results. Point was that despite being sacked he still came in and improved the team. You denied that would happen. And you’ve also argued Poch won’t do that on the basis of his sacking at Spurs. Which is again, a stupid argument. But then it’s your m.o., so I don’t know why I’m even bothering to respond.
posted on 3/1/20
It’s not just because of management, it’s a lot to do with Woodward’s incompetence. I don’t doubt that Ole being the coach will have an impact on certain transfer targets, but again when you have the lack of ambition at board level and lack of competence the coach is going to have massive problems despite budget - and this has proven to be the case for all our coaches since Fergie.
I wouldn’t rule it out completely. United is a big pull. But I wouldn’t be surprised if he turned us down, because it’d be a bad job for him to take on right now.
posted on 3/1/20
It is odd how (some) people don’t apply the context to Poch’s time at Spurs and how the sacking wasn’t quite all his fault and how it doesn’t really put too much of a dent in his rep. Many spurs fans still talk highly of him and rightly so as he worked some miracles
posted on 3/1/20
Daz - yea, Woodward is obviously another clown that needs to be dealt with but I really can’t see that putting off Poch when he had to deal with Levy. I mean, there is signing average players for triple their value and then there is Levy who just doesn’t let you sign anybody at all
posted on 3/1/20
The ups and downs in managerial careers, even stellar ones, suggest to me that at the top of the game it's less about ability and more about being in the right context. Some managers have shone in certain circumstances and been utterly unable to arrest a team in freefall elsewhere. Pochettino's sacking (like Klopp's early career relegation) doesn't mean he's a desperately flawed manager, but it is a useful reminder that there's no managerial stardust that works at every club all the time. And there's no managerial talent that's a long-term alternative to having a coherently run club with decisions being made by qualified people at the right levels of seniority and everyone pushing in the same direction. Funnily enough, top managers tend to have the best spells in their careers while working for those types of clubs.
I'm not really making a Solskjaer argument here, but musing on a wider point. However, this viewpoint does contribute to my cautiousness about the notion that we can bring in a replacement and hope for things to get significantly better.
posted on 3/1/20
We’ll have to wait and see. I’m not even fussed about getting him anyway. I do think he’s probably the best fit to get the club competing again, but I’m more concerned about the style of our football than our results, and Pochettino’s teams don’t really excite me.
posted on 3/1/20
comment by Bats (U18355)
posted 3 minutes ago
Daz - yea, Woodward is obviously another clown that needs to be dealt with but I really can’t see that putting off Poch when he had to deal with Levy. I mean, there is signing average players for triple their value and then there is Levy who just doesn’t let you sign anybody at all
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The financial constraints probably contribute to Spurs being so much better than us at driving great return on investment. Levy (who I assume himself operates under constraints around how much he can invest) is a vastly superior chief exec to Woodward when it comes to running the footballing business.
posted on 3/1/20
It’s completely true. And no I didn’t want Mourinho, but he was also the best manager we’ve had since Fergie and delivered the best results
.....
Yes he won the trophies but at what cost. These were the concerns I had.
Sanchez, Pogba, Matic, Lindelof, Lukaku ......and then the third season melt down where he peed everyone off.
I don’t support United just for the trophies. We should have gone the rebuild option after the failure of LVG.
......
Point was that despite being sacked he still came in and improved the team. You denied that would happen
......
I don’t recall saying Jose wouldn’t improve the team. Feel free to post where I said that and I will hold my hand up.
And look where we were when he was sacked. Worse off than when he started. We were not playing any better than we were under LVG. I have seen you use that same argument against Robb by the way.
I have also seen you say similar things I have said about Poch to the Spurs fans. I even backed you up on it.
posted on 3/1/20
“Miracles”
“A special manager”
“The opportunity to play for a manager like Poch”
As I’ve said, I like Pochettino and would welcome him at Old Trafford, but these are glowing terms with which to describe him and it’s hard to see exactly what they’re based on.
posted on 3/1/20
RR, those are fair points. But on the expectation of improvement the club has already shown it can improve despite the poor decision making at the top. From Moyes, to LVG to Mourinho there was either significant, or gradual, improvements on the pitch and in the squad.
We’ve now gone back to the Moyes phase. I’ve no doubt a better qualified coach will make better signings and get more from his players just as LVG and then Mourinho after him did.
All that said, I just want someone that can give us entertaining football. Which is why I want Ole replaced as our football is just as bad to watch as it has been under previous management.
posted on 3/1/20
but I’m more concerned about the style of our football than our results, and Pochettino’s teams don’t really excite me
......
This is also another concern of mine and we have both discussed this before.
posted on 3/1/20
Who would you like to see the next manager be, VC? Regardless of time frame before Ole’s sacked (and he will be).
posted on 3/1/20
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 3 minutes ago
The ups and downs in managerial careers, even stellar ones, suggest to me that at the top of the game it's less about ability and more about being in the right context. Some managers have shone in certain circumstances and been utterly unable to arrest a team in freefall elsewhere. Pochettino's sacking (like Klopp's early career relegation) doesn't mean he's a desperately flawed manager, but it is a useful reminder that there's no managerial stardust that works at every club all the time. And there's no managerial talent that's a long-term alternative to having a coherently run club with decisions being made by qualified people at the right levels of seniority and everyone pushing in the same direction. Funnily enough, top managers tend to have the best spells in their careers while working for those types of clubs.
I'm not really making a Solskjaer argument here, but musing on a wider point. However, this viewpoint does contribute to my cautiousness about the notion that we can bring in a replacement and hope for things to get significantly better.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Talking about Klopp's relegation with Mainz is a little disingenuous. We're talking about him guiding a team who had been in the relegation zone one division down, to safety, implementing his methods and narrowly missing out on promotion the following two years,then getting promoted the year after, with a team that had never reached the Bundesliga in their history. He then guided them to respectable finishes in the league despite having the lowest budget and the smallest stadium in the division. After a few seasons of keeping them above water they were finally relegated. All this was whilst having his team played in a set style drawing plaudits from all over the country. Probably similar to what Rodgers did with Swansea, for a comparison. This wasn't seen as a failure, considering Dortmund then appointed him.
If you compare that to Solskjaer for example, he managed Cardiff, got them relegated and they were on their way to being relegated again the following season before he was sacked. He was offered jobs in Norway.
Completely different. One did a great job at a club fighting way above their station, bringing them the furthest they'd ever been in their history. One did a poor job, despite having a team not good enough for the PL but one who should have been much better than they were in the Championship.
It's a lazy comparison, for me. Sometimes managers aren't very good. Saying yeah but once upon a time such and such was regarded as being not very good isn't a great argument.
posted on 3/1/20
comment by Mason The King Greenwood (U10026)
posted 12 minutes ago
Who would you like to see the next manager be, VC? Regardless of time frame before Ole’s sacked (and he will be).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don’t really know Dazza. The best ones are not going to leave their current jobs.
This is where I stand right now.
1. I think Ole should be given the rest of this season unless things go really bad. If he doesn’t strengthen the midfield in this window than you won’t see me being against him being sacked unless it is clearly down to Ed.
2. Of the current options if he was sacked right now then Poch is the best that we can go for. My concerns on him are much the same as yours. But I wouldn’t be against appointing him either.
3. So long as the real issues at the club remain unaddressed I do feel we are going to keep playing managerial merry-go-round. And by that I mean the removal of Ed from anything to do with football.
posted on 3/1/20
TOOR, do you have some automatic alert to wade in and defend LFC if certain keywords are triggered?
If you read my actual comment, you should see that I'm not making the lazy argument you've detected. I'm not saying there aren't great managers and poor managers. Klopp was mentioned (because he's a great manager) to strengthen the point that Pochettino's recent failure doesn't mean he's not a fine manager. The actual point I wanted to make was about the importance of structure and circumstances in contributing to success. E.g. there's no question Klopp is brilliant at what he does and would improve United, but I suspect he'd be less successful here than at Liverpool because yours is a well run club and ours isn't.
posted on 3/1/20
VC
On the manager merry-go-round I think that would be the case even if we were better run, it’s just the reality of football.
I actually think one of our biggest problems is that we are too slow to react to poor management. We’ve essentially written off years in a footballing sense by our inability to forsee clear problems and react to save a season. This also effects subsequent seasons due to the failures of those particular seasons.
I do think we’ve reached a stage this season where we are facked whatever we do regarding the manager (because I don’t see Poch taking it right now). But this is so often becoming the problem at United because we are too slow to react.
posted on 3/1/20
comment by Mason The King Greenwood (U10026)
posted 3 minutes ago
VC
On the manager merry-go-round I think that would be the case even if we were better run, it’s just the reality of football.
I actually think one of our biggest problems is that we are too slow to react to poor management. We’ve essentially written off years in a footballing sense by our inability to forsee clear problems and react to save a season. This also effects subsequent seasons due to the failures of those particular seasons.
I do think we’ve reached a stage this season where we are facked whatever we do regarding the manager (because I don’t see Poch taking it right now). But this is so often becoming the problem at United because we are too slow to react.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Solskjaer having been made permanent, at what stage would you have sacked him?
posted on 3/1/20
I probably wouldn’t have. I’m actually indifferent about sacking him during this season because we’d be replacing one interim coach with another.
But that shouldn’t detract from my overall point about our reluctance to react to bad management. Moyes, LVG and Mourinho all really should have been sacked earlier than they should. We might have salvaged more from the season had we done some. Especially regarding CL qualification, which impacts us the next season and thereafter.
These poor decisions have been cumulative and led to this mess we are currently in.
posted on 3/1/20
*than they were
posted on 3/1/20
We should never have given the job to Ole when we did. There was no need to. It would have been better to have let the season run out and then make the judgement on whether to give him the job.
I would bet that most of those saying ‘sign him up’ after the PSG game are those wanting him to be sacked right now.
posted on 3/1/20
I would bet that most of those saying ‘sign him up’ after the PSG game are those wanting him to be sacked right now.
---------------------
You are spot on with that one. I've pointed this out before. Gives you massive indication as to who the knee-jerk individuals are.
posted on 3/1/20
"On the manager merry-go-round I think that would be the case even if we were better run, it’s just the reality of football"
----
underacted comment
all the top clubs change managers constantly, we were spoilt with SAF
posted on 3/1/20
comment by -bloodred- (U1222)
posted 2 minutes ago
I would bet that most of those saying ‘sign him up’ after the PSG game are those wanting him to be sacked right now.
---------------------
You are spot on with that one. I've pointed this out before. Gives you massive indication as to who the knee-jerk individuals are.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
How is it knee jerk after the PSG game? That was the culmination of a very good run of results. I’d be worried if people who were doubters didn’t think he deserved the job based on all that.
And again, it’s not hugely strange or even wrong to revise that opinion based on what came after which has been very poor
Page 8 of 23
9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13