I Kiko referred to Leko's colour, and that was punishable, wonder why it was okay for Nike and the FA to use the racist term of colour for their advertising.
https://www.campaignlive.com/article/nike-honours-93-black-players-paved-english-football/1665872
Probably the £40 million a year Nike pays for the privilege.
Racism has absolutely no place in society but this decision is appalling. "Balance of probability" doesn't sound convincing and given the length of time they have taken to find an outcome it's even more disgraceful.
I'm not going to go down the "siege mentality" route and harp on about us being fair game for the authorities, I've been a Leeds United fan long enough to know the score.
Nobody comes out of this with any credibility whatsoever. It gives Meslier an opportunity to become something of a cult hero if he helps Leeds United achieve the impossible.
The FA and EFL are a disgrace. Inconsistency after inconsistency. Bury's situation still rankles.
Thoroughly p!ssed off.
What happens if Kiko writes an autobiography in 5 years time and states he meant it. He hates black people.
Is it still a disgrace of a decision.
We have no evidence so how can we say if it’s a good or bad decision.
I’m going to wait until the rest of the findings come out.
Everyone is presuming he is inocent just because he’s a Leeds player. There is nothing else to suggest one way or the other at this stage.
What we can say regardless is that the timing of the decision is a disgrace and the way that the ban has been announced with no further information. We are all debating a decision with no real basis to do so because the FA are with holding all the information. That’s shocking.
comment by HaveFaithInLeeds (U8688)
posted 1 hour, 24 minutes ago
What happens if Kiko writes an autobiography in 5 years time and states he meant it. He hates black people.
Is it still a disgrace of a decision.
We have no evidence so how can we say if it’s a good or bad decision.
I’m going to wait until the rest of the findings come out.
Everyone is presuming he is inocent just because he’s a Leeds player. There is nothing else to suggest one way or the other at this stage.
What we can say regardless is that the timing of the decision is a disgrace and the way that the ban has been announced with no further information. We are all debating a decision with no real basis to do so because the FA are with holding all the information. That’s shocking.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Kiko has already come out and said that he would NEVER use his words with racist meaning and I for one believe him.
https://mobile.twitter.com/KikoCasilla13/status/1233486206148710400/photo/2
Kiko has worked with many black/mixed raced players in his career. He works with black/mixed raced players pretty much every day at Leeds too. Costa, Roberts, Kalvin, JKA, some of the u23's and for half a season, Eddie Nketiah. Not one other mention and/or accusation of racism. If there were, Bielsa would not stand for it and he would be out of the club. So I'd say "on the balance of probability" he's not a racist.
I'm not presuming he's not a racist just because he's Leeds. Leko has come out and said he believed he had a racist comment directed at him by Casilla. Casilla has come out and said he would never use his words with racist meaning. I don't think either are lying - I just don't believe Leko fully understood what Kiko was saying. Maybe Kiko should have been given the chance to explain his words to Leko then see if he still wanted to continue with his complaint.
Hampshire. I think you’re right. I think the same.
But it’s not based on real reason.
I don’t know either of the players. I don’t have a clue what evidence there was. And I don’t have anyway of checking what was actually said.
So what is the basis for me thinking he won’t have meant anything racist?
The irony here is that we as a fan base are coming down like a tonne of bricks on the Fa for convicting Casilla without enough evidence before we have any idea what evidence they had.
We have to be fair and live by the standards we expect of others.
We have no idea what happened in that hearing over two days.
It might be a different matter once we find out what happened.
But let’s be honest we think he’s innocent because he’s Leeds.
Had Radebe accused Roy Keane of the same crime and we had the same evidence or lack of, we would all think he is guilty.
It’s the nature of being a partisan football fan. We all do it.
comment by HaveFaithInLeeds (U8688)
posted 21 minutes ago
Hampshire. I think you’re right. I think the same.
But it’s not based on real reason.
I don’t know either of the players. I don’t have a clue what evidence there was. And I don’t have anyway of checking what was actually said.
So what is the basis for me thinking he won’t have meant anything racist?
The irony here is that we as a fan base are coming down like a tonne of bricks on the Fa for convicting Casilla without enough evidence before we have any idea what evidence they had.
We have to be fair and live by the standards we expect of others.
We have no idea what happened in that hearing over two days.
It might be a different matter once we find out what happened.
But let’s be honest we think he’s innocent because he’s Leeds.
Had Radebe accused Roy Keane of the same crime and we had the same evidence or lack of, we would all think he is guilty.
It’s the nature of being a partisan football fan. We all do it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I personally don't believe he's innocent because he's Leeds United. I think that's a little presumptive on your part and in many respects makes you guilty too. I'm a reasonably intelligent 56 year old forming an opinion based on the comments and experiences I have encountered.
Given the robust defence and continued denial I'd be surprised if he came out in 5 years' time and admitted he was a racist.
We live in a democracy where you are innocent until proven guilty. I work for a Government agency which takes care of those who are found to be at the wrong end of that judicial process.
I'm Leeds United through and through but does that mean we blindly accept a potential miscarriage of justice for fear of being labelled partisan?
I think not.
comment by HampshireWhite (U9986)
posted 58 minutes ago
comment by HaveFaithInLeeds (U8688)
posted 1 hour, 24 minutes ago
What happens if Kiko writes an autobiography in 5 years time and states he meant it. He hates black people.
Is it still a disgrace of a decision.
We have no evidence so how can we say if it’s a good or bad decision.
I’m going to wait until the rest of the findings come out.
Everyone is presuming he is inocent just because he’s a Leeds player. There is nothing else to suggest one way or the other at this stage.
What we can say regardless is that the timing of the decision is a disgrace and the way that the ban has been announced with no further information. We are all debating a decision with no real basis to do so because the FA are with holding all the information. That’s shocking.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Kiko has already come out and said that he would NEVER use his words with racist meaning and I for one believe him.
https://mobile.twitter.com/KikoCasilla13/status/1233486206148710400/photo/2
Kiko has worked with many black/mixed raced players in his career. He works with black/mixed raced players pretty much every day at Leeds too. Costa, Roberts, Kalvin, JKA, some of the u23's and for half a season, Eddie Nketiah. Not one other mention and/or accusation of racism. If there were, Bielsa would not stand for it and he would be out of the club. So I'd say "on the balance of probability" he's not a racist.
I'm not presuming he's not a racist just because he's Leeds. Leko has come out and said he believed he had a racist comment directed at him by Casilla. Casilla has come out and said he would never use his words with racist meaning. I don't think either are lying - I just don't believe Leko fully understood what Kiko was saying. Maybe Kiko should have been given the chance to explain his words to Leko then see if he still wanted to continue with his complaint.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Regards the last paragraph, why wouldn't Leko understand what he was saying? I know that the Spanish word for black doesn't translate all that nicely into English context, but why would Casilla be giving orders to the defence in Spanish when there's no other Spanish players in your defence?
That aside, I can't say I agree with this verdict at all. Doing somebody on the basis of probability is shoddy, especially as sh-t sticks and this guy will have to carry that label around with him now. I'll wait until the FA release the written evidence about the case, but I can't help but think this has been badly misconstrued and will set a dangerous precedent for the future.
comment by Champers - Pow! Right in the kisser (U6859)
posted 23 minutes ago
comment by HampshireWhite (U9986)
posted 58 minutes ago
comment by HaveFaithInLeeds (U8688)
posted 1 hour, 24 minutes ago
What happens if Kiko writes an autobiography in 5 years time and states he meant it. He hates black people.
Is it still a disgrace of a decision.
We have no evidence so how can we say if it’s a good or bad decision.
I’m going to wait until the rest of the findings come out.
Everyone is presuming he is inocent just because he’s a Leeds player. There is nothing else to suggest one way or the other at this stage.
What we can say regardless is that the timing of the decision is a disgrace and the way that the ban has been announced with no further information. We are all debating a decision with no real basis to do so because the FA are with holding all the information. That’s shocking.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Kiko has already come out and said that he would NEVER use his words with racist meaning and I for one believe him.
https://mobile.twitter.com/KikoCasilla13/status/1233486206148710400/photo/2
Kiko has worked with many black/mixed raced players in his career. He works with black/mixed raced players pretty much every day at Leeds too. Costa, Roberts, Kalvin, JKA, some of the u23's and for half a season, Eddie Nketiah. Not one other mention and/or accusation of racism. If there were, Bielsa would not stand for it and he would be out of the club. So I'd say "on the balance of probability" he's not a racist.
I'm not presuming he's not a racist just because he's Leeds. Leko has come out and said he believed he had a racist comment directed at him by Casilla. Casilla has come out and said he would never use his words with racist meaning. I don't think either are lying - I just don't believe Leko fully understood what Kiko was saying. Maybe Kiko should have been given the chance to explain his words to Leko then see if he still wanted to continue with his complaint.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Regards the last paragraph, why wouldn't Leko understand what he was saying? I know that the Spanish word for black doesn't translate all that nicely into English context, but why would Casilla be giving orders to the defence in Spanish when there's no other Spanish players in your defence?
That aside, I can't say I agree with this verdict at all. Doing somebody on the basis of probability is shoddy, especially as sh-t sticks and this guy will have to carry that label around with him now. I'll wait until the FA release the written evidence about the case, but I can't help but think this has been badly misconstrued and will set a dangerous precedent for the future.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Loud stadium, players shouting around him in a crowded box, kiko speaking in broken English (we know he didn't speak much english, if any, when he arrived at the club).
I'm not saying he didnt understand him. Just saying it's a distinct possibility and a factor which should have been incorporated.
comment by HampshireWhite (U9986)
posted 23 minutes ago
comment by Champers - Pow! Right in the kisser (U6859)
posted 23 minutes ago
comment by HampshireWhite (U9986)
posted 58 minutes ago
comment by HaveFaithInLeeds (U8688)
posted 1 hour, 24 minutes ago
What happens if Kiko writes an autobiography in 5 years time and states he meant it. He hates black people.
Is it still a disgrace of a decision.
We have no evidence so how can we say if it’s a good or bad decision.
I’m going to wait until the rest of the findings come out.
Everyone is presuming he is inocent just because he’s a Leeds player. There is nothing else to suggest one way or the other at this stage.
What we can say regardless is that the timing of the decision is a disgrace and the way that the ban has been announced with no further information. We are all debating a decision with no real basis to do so because the FA are with holding all the information. That’s shocking.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Kiko has already come out and said that he would NEVER use his words with racist meaning and I for one believe him.
https://mobile.twitter.com/KikoCasilla13/status/1233486206148710400/photo/2
Kiko has worked with many black/mixed raced players in his career. He works with black/mixed raced players pretty much every day at Leeds too. Costa, Roberts, Kalvin, JKA, some of the u23's and for half a season, Eddie Nketiah. Not one other mention and/or accusation of racism. If there were, Bielsa would not stand for it and he would be out of the club. So I'd say "on the balance of probability" he's not a racist.
I'm not presuming he's not a racist just because he's Leeds. Leko has come out and said he believed he had a racist comment directed at him by Casilla. Casilla has come out and said he would never use his words with racist meaning. I don't think either are lying - I just don't believe Leko fully understood what Kiko was saying. Maybe Kiko should have been given the chance to explain his words to Leko then see if he still wanted to continue with his complaint.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Regards the last paragraph, why wouldn't Leko understand what he was saying? I know that the Spanish word for black doesn't translate all that nicely into English context, but why would Casilla be giving orders to the defence in Spanish when there's no other Spanish players in your defence?
That aside, I can't say I agree with this verdict at all. Doing somebody on the basis of probability is shoddy, especially as sh-t sticks and this guy will have to carry that label around with him now. I'll wait until the FA release the written evidence about the case, but I can't help but think this has been badly misconstrued and will set a dangerous precedent for the future.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Loud stadium, players shouting around him in a crowded box, kiko speaking in broken English (we know he didn't speak much english, if any, when he arrived at the club).
I'm not saying he didnt understand him. Just saying it's a distinct possibility and a factor which should have been incorporated.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I can't see that anyone would overlook that in this case at all. It will have been one of the main arguments for the defence I would have thought and therefore taken hugely into account. But if I was working for the prosecution, then my initial question would have been one of the first I'd have asked the accused with regards to any cultural differences.
Again, I'm not saying he's remotely guilty of racism (I don't think he is personally), but if his only defence is that he's Spanish and can't speak in English, then it wouldn't be hard for the prosecution to kill that argument as it's weak at best.
"I'll wait until the FA release the written evidence about the case, but I can't help but think this has been badly misconstrued and will set a dangerous precedent for the future."
That's a reasonable position to take, Champers, and I agree about the danger of the precedent that has been set, not least because a man can be publicly damned on the basis of a probability. Getting out of the FL's clutches can't come soon enough - this procedure has been laughably shoddy and unprofessional.
So now it's time for young Illan Meslier to step up to the plate. He did very well at the Emirates. Good luck to him today!
comment by Jaz63 (U8369)
posted 12 minutes ago
"I'll wait until the FA release the written evidence about the case, but I can't help but think this has been badly misconstrued and will set a dangerous precedent for the future."
That's a reasonable position to take, Champers, and I agree about the danger of the precedent that has been set, not least because a man can be publicly damned on the basis of a probability. Getting out of the FL's clutches can't come soon enough - this procedure has been laughably shoddy and unprofessional.
So now it's time for young Illan Meslier to step up to the plate. He did very well at the Emirates. Good luck to him today!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think it's very dangerous, Jaz, and the other part of this case I've never really understood, is just how long it's taken to arrive at this decision. I know evidence gathering isn't a simple process and no doubt with character witness testimonials probably needed from Madrid it would maybe take a little longer than usual, but this has rumbled on for literally months. It's not as if it's needed Harvard levels of forensic science to ascertain what has been said or not said. Any good lip reader would need a couple of hours to arrive at a conclusive decision surely? That, and a good number of witness statements, character reports, should that really need any longer than a fortnight to pull together?
Obviously I'm not privy to how the whole process works, but murder cases have been brought to trial in half the time so why the wait? I can see the FA coming under some major scrutiny when the written evidence is released next week.
comment by Champers - Pow! Right in the kisser (U6859)
posted 21 minutes ago
comment by HampshireWhite (U9986)
posted 23 minutes ago
comment by Champers - Pow! Right in the kisser (U6859)
posted 23 minutes ago
comment by HampshireWhite (U9986)
posted 58 minutes ago
comment by HaveFaithInLeeds (U8688)
posted 1 hour, 24 minutes ago
What happens if Kiko writes an autobiography in 5 years time and states he meant it. He hates black people.
Is it still a disgrace of a decision.
We have no evidence so how can we say if it’s a good or bad decision.
I’m going to wait until the rest of the findings come out.
Everyone is presuming he is inocent just because he’s a Leeds player. There is nothing else to suggest one way or the other at this stage.
What we can say regardless is that the timing of the decision is a disgrace and the way that the ban has been announced with no further information. We are all debating a decision with no real basis to do so because the FA are with holding all the information. That’s shocking.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Kiko has already come out and said that he would NEVER use his words with racist meaning and I for one believe him.
https://mobile.twitter.com/KikoCasilla13/status/1233486206148710400/photo/2
Kiko has worked with many black/mixed raced players in his career. He works with black/mixed raced players pretty much every day at Leeds too. Costa, Roberts, Kalvin, JKA, some of the u23's and for half a season, Eddie Nketiah. Not one other mention and/or accusation of racism. If there were, Bielsa would not stand for it and he would be out of the club. So I'd say "on the balance of probability" he's not a racist.
I'm not presuming he's not a racist just because he's Leeds. Leko has come out and said he believed he had a racist comment directed at him by Casilla. Casilla has come out and said he would never use his words with racist meaning. I don't think either are lying - I just don't believe Leko fully understood what Kiko was saying. Maybe Kiko should have been given the chance to explain his words to Leko then see if he still wanted to continue with his complaint.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Regards the last paragraph, why wouldn't Leko understand what he was saying? I know that the Spanish word for black doesn't translate all that nicely into English context, but why would Casilla be giving orders to the defence in Spanish when there's no other Spanish players in your defence?
That aside, I can't say I agree with this verdict at all. Doing somebody on the basis of probability is shoddy, especially as sh-t sticks and this guy will have to carry that label around with him now. I'll wait until the FA release the written evidence about the case, but I can't help but think this has been badly misconstrued and will set a dangerous precedent for the future.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Loud stadium, players shouting around him in a crowded box, kiko speaking in broken English (we know he didn't speak much english, if any, when he arrived at the club).
I'm not saying he didnt understand him. Just saying it's a distinct possibility and a factor which should have been incorporated.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I can't see that anyone would overlook that in this case at all. It will have been one of the main arguments for the defence I would have thought and therefore taken hugely into account. But if I was working for the prosecution, then my initial question would have been one of the first I'd have asked the accused with regards to any cultural differences.
Again, I'm not saying he's remotely guilty of racism (I don't think he is personally), but if his only defence is that he's Spanish and can't speak in English, then it wouldn't be hard for the prosecution to kill that argument as it's weak at best.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
In the same vein the prosecution would have to prove intent and that would be incredibly difficult.
Without seeing the exact evidence its difficult to understand exactly how the FA came to their decision. All we know is that they say they came to their decision "on balance of probability" which would indicate a lack thereof.
Nobody should be found guilty of such a damning accusation without the presence of irrefutable evidence. It's plain wrong. Kiko has now been branded a racist. Could face being sacked by the club. Could struggle to gain further employment. Could be alienated by any black or mixed race friends or family he may have and on the back of what? He "probably" did it? Not only that, the club now face a difficult decision and have had their name tarnished once again and on the back of what? He "probably" did it. Sorry but for me it's a case of no evidence, no conviction and that's how it should be with anything.
If it genuinely did happen, and I'm not saying it didn't, but surely they wouldn't struggle to find evidence beyond all reasonable doubt. Even if there were 4 or 5 witness statements corroborating Leko's version of events then surely that's beyond reasonable doubt?
Like I said, I'm not sure on what evidence they have, but their choice of words makes it sound like there isn't much or any at all.
comment by HampshireWhite (U9986)
posted 18 minutes ago
comment by Champers - Pow! Right in the kisser (U6859)
posted 21 minutes ago
comment by HampshireWhite (U9986)
posted 23 minutes ago
comment by Champers - Pow! Right in the kisser (U6859)
posted 23 minutes ago
comment by HampshireWhite (U9986)
posted 58 minutes ago
comment by HaveFaithInLeeds (U8688)
posted 1 hour, 24 minutes ago
What happens if Kiko writes an autobiography in 5 years time and states he meant it. He hates black people.
Is it still a disgrace of a decision.
We have no evidence so how can we say if it’s a good or bad decision.
I’m going to wait until the rest of the findings come out.
Everyone is presuming he is inocent just because he’s a Leeds player. There is nothing else to suggest one way or the other at this stage.
What we can say regardless is that the timing of the decision is a disgrace and the way that the ban has been announced with no further information. We are all debating a decision with no real basis to do so because the FA are with holding all the information. That’s shocking.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Kiko has already come out and said that he would NEVER use his words with racist meaning and I for one believe him.
https://mobile.twitter.com/KikoCasilla13/status/1233486206148710400/photo/2
Kiko has worked with many black/mixed raced players in his career. He works with black/mixed raced players pretty much every day at Leeds too. Costa, Roberts, Kalvin, JKA, some of the u23's and for half a season, Eddie Nketiah. Not one other mention and/or accusation of racism. If there were, Bielsa would not stand for it and he would be out of the club. So I'd say "on the balance of probability" he's not a racist.
I'm not presuming he's not a racist just because he's Leeds. Leko has come out and said he believed he had a racist comment directed at him by Casilla. Casilla has come out and said he would never use his words with racist meaning. I don't think either are lying - I just don't believe Leko fully understood what Kiko was saying. Maybe Kiko should have been given the chance to explain his words to Leko then see if he still wanted to continue with his complaint.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Regards the last paragraph, why wouldn't Leko understand what he was saying? I know that the Spanish word for black doesn't translate all that nicely into English context, but why would Casilla be giving orders to the defence in Spanish when there's no other Spanish players in your defence?
That aside, I can't say I agree with this verdict at all. Doing somebody on the basis of probability is shoddy, especially as sh-t sticks and this guy will have to carry that label around with him now. I'll wait until the FA release the written evidence about the case, but I can't help but think this has been badly misconstrued and will set a dangerous precedent for the future.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Loud stadium, players shouting around him in a crowded box, kiko speaking in broken English (we know he didn't speak much english, if any, when he arrived at the club).
I'm not saying he didnt understand him. Just saying it's a distinct possibility and a factor which should have been incorporated.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I can't see that anyone would overlook that in this case at all. It will have been one of the main arguments for the defence I would have thought and therefore taken hugely into account. But if I was working for the prosecution, then my initial question would have been one of the first I'd have asked the accused with regards to any cultural differences.
Again, I'm not saying he's remotely guilty of racism (I don't think he is personally), but if his only defence is that he's Spanish and can't speak in English, then it wouldn't be hard for the prosecution to kill that argument as it's weak at best.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
In the same vein the prosecution would have to prove intent and that would be incredibly difficult.
Without seeing the exact evidence its difficult to understand exactly how the FA came to their decision. All we know is that they say they came to their decision "on balance of probability" which would indicate a lack thereof.
Nobody should be found guilty of such a damning accusation without the presence of irrefutable evidence. It's plain wrong. Kiko has now been branded a racist. Could face being sacked by the club. Could struggle to gain further employment. Could be alienated by any black or mixed race friends or family he may have and on the back of what? He "probably" did it? Not only that, the club now face a difficult decision and have had their name tarnished once again and on the back of what? He "probably" did it. Sorry but for me it's a case of no evidence, no conviction and that's how it should be with anything.
If it genuinely did happen, and I'm not saying it didn't, but surely they wouldn't struggle to find evidence beyond all reasonable doubt. Even if there were 4 or 5 witness statements corroborating Leko's version of events then surely that's beyond reasonable doubt?
Like I said, I'm not sure on what evidence they have, but their choice of words makes it sound like there isn't much or any at all.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Agree with pretty much all of that in terms of my personal stance on it, Hampshire.
comment by Champers - Pow! Right in the kisser (U6859)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by HampshireWhite (U9986)
posted 18 minutes ago
comment by Champers - Pow! Right in the kisser (U6859)
posted 21 minutes ago
comment by HampshireWhite (U9986)
posted 23 minutes ago
comment by Champers - Pow! Right in the kisser (U6859)
posted 23 minutes ago
comment by HampshireWhite (U9986)
posted 58 minutes ago
comment by HaveFaithInLeeds (U8688)
posted 1 hour, 24 minutes ago
What happens if Kiko writes an autobiography in 5 years time and states he meant it. He hates black people.
Is it still a disgrace of a decision.
We have no evidence so how can we say if it’s a good or bad decision.
I’m going to wait until the rest of the findings come out.
Everyone is presuming he is inocent just because he’s a Leeds player. There is nothing else to suggest one way or the other at this stage.
What we can say regardless is that the timing of the decision is a disgrace and the way that the ban has been announced with no further information. We are all debating a decision with no real basis to do so because the FA are with holding all the information. That’s shocking.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Kiko has already come out and said that he would NEVER use his words with racist meaning and I for one believe him.
https://mobile.twitter.com/KikoCasilla13/status/1233486206148710400/photo/2
Kiko has worked with many black/mixed raced players in his career. He works with black/mixed raced players pretty much every day at Leeds too. Costa, Roberts, Kalvin, JKA, some of the u23's and for half a season, Eddie Nketiah. Not one other mention and/or accusation of racism. If there were, Bielsa would not stand for it and he would be out of the club. So I'd say "on the balance of probability" he's not a racist.
I'm not presuming he's not a racist just because he's Leeds. Leko has come out and said he believed he had a racist comment directed at him by Casilla. Casilla has come out and said he would never use his words with racist meaning. I don't think either are lying - I just don't believe Leko fully understood what Kiko was saying. Maybe Kiko should have been given the chance to explain his words to Leko then see if he still wanted to continue with his complaint.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Regards the last paragraph, why wouldn't Leko understand what he was saying? I know that the Spanish word for black doesn't translate all that nicely into English context, but why would Casilla be giving orders to the defence in Spanish when there's no other Spanish players in your defence?
That aside, I can't say I agree with this verdict at all. Doing somebody on the basis of probability is shoddy, especially as sh-t sticks and this guy will have to carry that label around with him now. I'll wait until the FA release the written evidence about the case, but I can't help but think this has been badly misconstrued and will set a dangerous precedent for the future.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Loud stadium, players shouting around him in a crowded box, kiko speaking in broken English (we know he didn't speak much english, if any, when he arrived at the club).
I'm not saying he didnt understand him. Just saying it's a distinct possibility and a factor which should have been incorporated.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I can't see that anyone would overlook that in this case at all. It will have been one of the main arguments for the defence I would have thought and therefore taken hugely into account. But if I was working for the prosecution, then my initial question would have been one of the first I'd have asked the accused with regards to any cultural differences.
Again, I'm not saying he's remotely guilty of racism (I don't think he is personally), but if his only defence is that he's Spanish and can't speak in English, then it wouldn't be hard for the prosecution to kill that argument as it's weak at best.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
In the same vein the prosecution would have to prove intent and that would be incredibly difficult.
Without seeing the exact evidence its difficult to understand exactly how the FA came to their decision. All we know is that they say they came to their decision "on balance of probability" which would indicate a lack thereof.
Nobody should be found guilty of such a damning accusation without the presence of irrefutable evidence. It's plain wrong. Kiko has now been branded a racist. Could face being sacked by the club. Could struggle to gain further employment. Could be alienated by any black or mixed race friends or family he may have and on the back of what? He "probably" did it? Not only that, the club now face a difficult decision and have had their name tarnished once again and on the back of what? He "probably" did it. Sorry but for me it's a case of no evidence, no conviction and that's how it should be with anything.
If it genuinely did happen, and I'm not saying it didn't, but surely they wouldn't struggle to find evidence beyond all reasonable doubt. Even if there were 4 or 5 witness statements corroborating Leko's version of events then surely that's beyond reasonable doubt?
Like I said, I'm not sure on what evidence they have, but their choice of words makes it sound like there isn't much or any at all.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Agree with pretty much all of that in terms of my personal stance on it, Hampshire.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not trying to be difficult or anything, Champers, and I hope it didn't come off that way.
Totally respect the points that yourself and HaveFaith have made.
comment by Stevie Dee (U10061)
posted 2 hours, 25 minutes ago
comment by HaveFaithInLeeds (U8688)
posted 21 minutes ago
Hampshire. I think you’re right. I think the same.
But it’s not based on real reason.
I don’t know either of the players. I don’t have a clue what evidence there was. And I don’t have anyway of checking what was actually said.
So what is the basis for me thinking he won’t have meant anything racist?
The irony here is that we as a fan base are coming down like a tonne of bricks on the Fa for convicting Casilla without enough evidence before we have any idea what evidence they had.
We have to be fair and live by the standards we expect of others.
We have no idea what happened in that hearing over two days.
It might be a different matter once we find out what happened.
But let’s be honest we think he’s innocent because he’s Leeds.
Had Radebe accused Roy Keane of the same crime and we had the same evidence or lack of, we would all think he is guilty.
It’s the nature of being a partisan football fan. We all do it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I personally don't believe he's innocent because he's Leeds United. I think that's a little presumptive on your part and in many respects makes you guilty too. I'm a reasonably intelligent 56 year old forming an opinion based on the comments and experiences I have encountered.
Given the robust defence and continued denial I'd be surprised if he came out in 5 years' time and admitted he was a racist.
We live in a democracy where you are innocent until proven guilty. I work for a Government agency which takes care of those who are found to be at the wrong end of that judicial process.
I'm Leeds United through and through but does that mean we blindly accept a potential miscarriage of justice for fear of being labelled partisan?
I think not.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Don’t disagree with your intelligence and will always consider everyone’s opinions on here. I definitely am being presumptuous too. That’s the problem here. The grey area is huge.
Almost everything about the incident. The evidence and the process is a grey area with very few facts.
That’s why I think it’s too early to say one way or the other.
I do think there is a greater risk that racists will abuse other players if they think they can get away with, than the risk that players will invent racists accusations if they think they can get away with it.
Balance of probability doesn’t mean 50/50 and is widely used in this country with the exception of criminal cases. So it’s not a ridiculous FA concept.
It has huge flaws though & if Kiko is innocent then he will have been vilified and grossly mistreated.
I've said lots of things here where I've taken the English way and translated it to German!..
Mates have said a few times that's not right, they've corrected me and I've questioned why?..
Its a simple case of what I've learnt doesn't come over the same in a different language, in Kiko's language what he has said could be completely normal but in English its taken the wrong way!..
Somebody has said something he's thought normal and it been taken the way its understood, which for Kiko might be right but said in the wrong place!..
This is a case of misunderstanding or someone that has taken it the way it wasn't meant!..
Or someone that knows the race card works in his favour!..
Found this a very good summation of the situation...
https://t.co/UGr9g36I6W?amp=1
Good read indeed!
“ Right, I’m inadvisedly addressing the Kiko thing because I’d feel like a coward not even mentioning it once given that I tweet about anything & everything loosely relating to Leeds Utd. Forgive the indulgence.
The bigger point that has to be made is that racially abusing someone is never ever acceptable & the first thing any of us should be doing is showing support for Jonathan Leko. I do not believe he made this up, I believe that he felt that he was subjected to racist abuse.
I don’t believe that apropos of nothing Leko decided to report a fellow professional for racial abuse in a relatively nothing game that conferred no significant advantage to him or his side. That doesn’t ring true so we have to assume he’s telling the truth, sad as it is.
The question then becomes what was said & the context - at this point, we simply don’t know. Maybe the report will tell us more, I fully expect it to be a difficult & potentially upsetting read. Nothing about this situation is going to be easy for any of those involved.
There’s a chance that Kiko was misheard or misinterpreted but there’s every chance that he was careless with his words or lost his temper & said something not representative of his actual character. This is a very common & sadly very human occurrence. It does happen.
To the question of whether a racist utterance or using the language of racism makes one a racist, it’s a complicated issue. I don’t believe that one statement in a lifetime is sufficient to condemn a man as a racist in perpetuity. It’s more complicated than that.
I can only use myself as an example - I’ve said some stuff in stressful situations that would look ugly on paper, especially bereft of context. I’m 35 in a multicultural city & I still to this day find myself challenged on a semi-regular basis by people I consider friends.
The central premise of restorative or transformative justice is that a person is never incapable of redemption, nor are they defined by their worst moments. There is no benefit to indefinitely othering a person because human beings are prone to making mistakes by nature.
As much as we should believe Leko, who did something very brave & has certainly not benefitted from this sorry affair, we are also obligated to be mindful of the people who came to Kiko’s defence & provided character statements. This includes teammates past & present.
I also believe those people who came forward to say that Kiko has never displayed any racist behaviour towards or in front of them because I certainly do not believe that Casilla believes in the superiority or inferiority of any race over any other.
However, it remains plausible that Kiko said something that did not reflect his actual views & in that moment did himself an injustice. He has released what reads to me as heartfelt rejection of racism as an ideology & I fully believe him too. There’s no reason not to.
Leeds Utd has an unfortunate association in some corners for sickening instances of racism in the past & I can only admire the way various stewards of the club & indeed fans have worked tirelessly to address the transgressions of bygone eras. There is yet work to be done.
Thus, it’s hard to countenance the idea that someone in a Leeds Utd shirt could have racially abused another player in this day & age but if it is the case, we must face this with consideration & sensitivity because we owe it to our ourselves to be brutally frank.
However, I also do not think that we should permanently ostracise Kiko Casilla if that is the case. His earnest opinion on racism is now in the public domain & if he had a moment of regrettable weakness, we should still be supportive of him as a representative of our club.
Kiko has been banned & the club appears to have accepted his punishment. He will serve his ban & to me that essentially concludes this as an issue. Being supportive of him now & after is not condoning racism, it is instead part of the ongoing accountability process.
There will inevitably be lots of speculation & discussion but fundamentally, what happened on that day is a timely reminder that we should all strive to be better, even better than the incremental progress we’ve all strived to achieve since the dark days of the past.
As such, we should all be very wary not to perpetuate the harm done in this instance & certainly not be inconsiderate to Jonathan Leko, who in this instance represents the ongoing fight against racism. We must embrace him as one of our own & swallow our pride.
But this also does not mean that we should turn our back on Kiko Casilla. We will likely never know specifically what happened & can only accept that to err is to be human, which only emphasises the fundamental equality of all people, regardless of race. This is the lesson.”
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Casilla gets 8 game ban
Page 3 of 3
posted on 28/2/20
I Kiko referred to Leko's colour, and that was punishable, wonder why it was okay for Nike and the FA to use the racist term of colour for their advertising.
https://www.campaignlive.com/article/nike-honours-93-black-players-paved-english-football/1665872
Probably the £40 million a year Nike pays for the privilege.
posted on 29/2/20
Racism has absolutely no place in society but this decision is appalling. "Balance of probability" doesn't sound convincing and given the length of time they have taken to find an outcome it's even more disgraceful.
I'm not going to go down the "siege mentality" route and harp on about us being fair game for the authorities, I've been a Leeds United fan long enough to know the score.
Nobody comes out of this with any credibility whatsoever. It gives Meslier an opportunity to become something of a cult hero if he helps Leeds United achieve the impossible.
The FA and EFL are a disgrace. Inconsistency after inconsistency. Bury's situation still rankles.
Thoroughly p!ssed off.
posted on 29/2/20
What happens if Kiko writes an autobiography in 5 years time and states he meant it. He hates black people.
Is it still a disgrace of a decision.
We have no evidence so how can we say if it’s a good or bad decision.
I’m going to wait until the rest of the findings come out.
Everyone is presuming he is inocent just because he’s a Leeds player. There is nothing else to suggest one way or the other at this stage.
What we can say regardless is that the timing of the decision is a disgrace and the way that the ban has been announced with no further information. We are all debating a decision with no real basis to do so because the FA are with holding all the information. That’s shocking.
posted on 29/2/20
comment by HaveFaithInLeeds (U8688)
posted 1 hour, 24 minutes ago
What happens if Kiko writes an autobiography in 5 years time and states he meant it. He hates black people.
Is it still a disgrace of a decision.
We have no evidence so how can we say if it’s a good or bad decision.
I’m going to wait until the rest of the findings come out.
Everyone is presuming he is inocent just because he’s a Leeds player. There is nothing else to suggest one way or the other at this stage.
What we can say regardless is that the timing of the decision is a disgrace and the way that the ban has been announced with no further information. We are all debating a decision with no real basis to do so because the FA are with holding all the information. That’s shocking.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Kiko has already come out and said that he would NEVER use his words with racist meaning and I for one believe him.
https://mobile.twitter.com/KikoCasilla13/status/1233486206148710400/photo/2
Kiko has worked with many black/mixed raced players in his career. He works with black/mixed raced players pretty much every day at Leeds too. Costa, Roberts, Kalvin, JKA, some of the u23's and for half a season, Eddie Nketiah. Not one other mention and/or accusation of racism. If there were, Bielsa would not stand for it and he would be out of the club. So I'd say "on the balance of probability" he's not a racist.
I'm not presuming he's not a racist just because he's Leeds. Leko has come out and said he believed he had a racist comment directed at him by Casilla. Casilla has come out and said he would never use his words with racist meaning. I don't think either are lying - I just don't believe Leko fully understood what Kiko was saying. Maybe Kiko should have been given the chance to explain his words to Leko then see if he still wanted to continue with his complaint.
posted on 29/2/20
Hampshire. I think you’re right. I think the same.
But it’s not based on real reason.
I don’t know either of the players. I don’t have a clue what evidence there was. And I don’t have anyway of checking what was actually said.
So what is the basis for me thinking he won’t have meant anything racist?
The irony here is that we as a fan base are coming down like a tonne of bricks on the Fa for convicting Casilla without enough evidence before we have any idea what evidence they had.
We have to be fair and live by the standards we expect of others.
We have no idea what happened in that hearing over two days.
It might be a different matter once we find out what happened.
But let’s be honest we think he’s innocent because he’s Leeds.
Had Radebe accused Roy Keane of the same crime and we had the same evidence or lack of, we would all think he is guilty.
It’s the nature of being a partisan football fan. We all do it.
posted on 29/2/20
comment by HaveFaithInLeeds (U8688)
posted 21 minutes ago
Hampshire. I think you’re right. I think the same.
But it’s not based on real reason.
I don’t know either of the players. I don’t have a clue what evidence there was. And I don’t have anyway of checking what was actually said.
So what is the basis for me thinking he won’t have meant anything racist?
The irony here is that we as a fan base are coming down like a tonne of bricks on the Fa for convicting Casilla without enough evidence before we have any idea what evidence they had.
We have to be fair and live by the standards we expect of others.
We have no idea what happened in that hearing over two days.
It might be a different matter once we find out what happened.
But let’s be honest we think he’s innocent because he’s Leeds.
Had Radebe accused Roy Keane of the same crime and we had the same evidence or lack of, we would all think he is guilty.
It’s the nature of being a partisan football fan. We all do it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I personally don't believe he's innocent because he's Leeds United. I think that's a little presumptive on your part and in many respects makes you guilty too. I'm a reasonably intelligent 56 year old forming an opinion based on the comments and experiences I have encountered.
Given the robust defence and continued denial I'd be surprised if he came out in 5 years' time and admitted he was a racist.
We live in a democracy where you are innocent until proven guilty. I work for a Government agency which takes care of those who are found to be at the wrong end of that judicial process.
I'm Leeds United through and through but does that mean we blindly accept a potential miscarriage of justice for fear of being labelled partisan?
I think not.
posted on 29/2/20
comment by HampshireWhite (U9986)
posted 58 minutes ago
comment by HaveFaithInLeeds (U8688)
posted 1 hour, 24 minutes ago
What happens if Kiko writes an autobiography in 5 years time and states he meant it. He hates black people.
Is it still a disgrace of a decision.
We have no evidence so how can we say if it’s a good or bad decision.
I’m going to wait until the rest of the findings come out.
Everyone is presuming he is inocent just because he’s a Leeds player. There is nothing else to suggest one way or the other at this stage.
What we can say regardless is that the timing of the decision is a disgrace and the way that the ban has been announced with no further information. We are all debating a decision with no real basis to do so because the FA are with holding all the information. That’s shocking.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Kiko has already come out and said that he would NEVER use his words with racist meaning and I for one believe him.
https://mobile.twitter.com/KikoCasilla13/status/1233486206148710400/photo/2
Kiko has worked with many black/mixed raced players in his career. He works with black/mixed raced players pretty much every day at Leeds too. Costa, Roberts, Kalvin, JKA, some of the u23's and for half a season, Eddie Nketiah. Not one other mention and/or accusation of racism. If there were, Bielsa would not stand for it and he would be out of the club. So I'd say "on the balance of probability" he's not a racist.
I'm not presuming he's not a racist just because he's Leeds. Leko has come out and said he believed he had a racist comment directed at him by Casilla. Casilla has come out and said he would never use his words with racist meaning. I don't think either are lying - I just don't believe Leko fully understood what Kiko was saying. Maybe Kiko should have been given the chance to explain his words to Leko then see if he still wanted to continue with his complaint.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Regards the last paragraph, why wouldn't Leko understand what he was saying? I know that the Spanish word for black doesn't translate all that nicely into English context, but why would Casilla be giving orders to the defence in Spanish when there's no other Spanish players in your defence?
That aside, I can't say I agree with this verdict at all. Doing somebody on the basis of probability is shoddy, especially as sh-t sticks and this guy will have to carry that label around with him now. I'll wait until the FA release the written evidence about the case, but I can't help but think this has been badly misconstrued and will set a dangerous precedent for the future.
posted on 29/2/20
comment by Champers - Pow! Right in the kisser (U6859)
posted 23 minutes ago
comment by HampshireWhite (U9986)
posted 58 minutes ago
comment by HaveFaithInLeeds (U8688)
posted 1 hour, 24 minutes ago
What happens if Kiko writes an autobiography in 5 years time and states he meant it. He hates black people.
Is it still a disgrace of a decision.
We have no evidence so how can we say if it’s a good or bad decision.
I’m going to wait until the rest of the findings come out.
Everyone is presuming he is inocent just because he’s a Leeds player. There is nothing else to suggest one way or the other at this stage.
What we can say regardless is that the timing of the decision is a disgrace and the way that the ban has been announced with no further information. We are all debating a decision with no real basis to do so because the FA are with holding all the information. That’s shocking.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Kiko has already come out and said that he would NEVER use his words with racist meaning and I for one believe him.
https://mobile.twitter.com/KikoCasilla13/status/1233486206148710400/photo/2
Kiko has worked with many black/mixed raced players in his career. He works with black/mixed raced players pretty much every day at Leeds too. Costa, Roberts, Kalvin, JKA, some of the u23's and for half a season, Eddie Nketiah. Not one other mention and/or accusation of racism. If there were, Bielsa would not stand for it and he would be out of the club. So I'd say "on the balance of probability" he's not a racist.
I'm not presuming he's not a racist just because he's Leeds. Leko has come out and said he believed he had a racist comment directed at him by Casilla. Casilla has come out and said he would never use his words with racist meaning. I don't think either are lying - I just don't believe Leko fully understood what Kiko was saying. Maybe Kiko should have been given the chance to explain his words to Leko then see if he still wanted to continue with his complaint.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Regards the last paragraph, why wouldn't Leko understand what he was saying? I know that the Spanish word for black doesn't translate all that nicely into English context, but why would Casilla be giving orders to the defence in Spanish when there's no other Spanish players in your defence?
That aside, I can't say I agree with this verdict at all. Doing somebody on the basis of probability is shoddy, especially as sh-t sticks and this guy will have to carry that label around with him now. I'll wait until the FA release the written evidence about the case, but I can't help but think this has been badly misconstrued and will set a dangerous precedent for the future.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Loud stadium, players shouting around him in a crowded box, kiko speaking in broken English (we know he didn't speak much english, if any, when he arrived at the club).
I'm not saying he didnt understand him. Just saying it's a distinct possibility and a factor which should have been incorporated.
posted on 29/2/20
comment by HampshireWhite (U9986)
posted 23 minutes ago
comment by Champers - Pow! Right in the kisser (U6859)
posted 23 minutes ago
comment by HampshireWhite (U9986)
posted 58 minutes ago
comment by HaveFaithInLeeds (U8688)
posted 1 hour, 24 minutes ago
What happens if Kiko writes an autobiography in 5 years time and states he meant it. He hates black people.
Is it still a disgrace of a decision.
We have no evidence so how can we say if it’s a good or bad decision.
I’m going to wait until the rest of the findings come out.
Everyone is presuming he is inocent just because he’s a Leeds player. There is nothing else to suggest one way or the other at this stage.
What we can say regardless is that the timing of the decision is a disgrace and the way that the ban has been announced with no further information. We are all debating a decision with no real basis to do so because the FA are with holding all the information. That’s shocking.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Kiko has already come out and said that he would NEVER use his words with racist meaning and I for one believe him.
https://mobile.twitter.com/KikoCasilla13/status/1233486206148710400/photo/2
Kiko has worked with many black/mixed raced players in his career. He works with black/mixed raced players pretty much every day at Leeds too. Costa, Roberts, Kalvin, JKA, some of the u23's and for half a season, Eddie Nketiah. Not one other mention and/or accusation of racism. If there were, Bielsa would not stand for it and he would be out of the club. So I'd say "on the balance of probability" he's not a racist.
I'm not presuming he's not a racist just because he's Leeds. Leko has come out and said he believed he had a racist comment directed at him by Casilla. Casilla has come out and said he would never use his words with racist meaning. I don't think either are lying - I just don't believe Leko fully understood what Kiko was saying. Maybe Kiko should have been given the chance to explain his words to Leko then see if he still wanted to continue with his complaint.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Regards the last paragraph, why wouldn't Leko understand what he was saying? I know that the Spanish word for black doesn't translate all that nicely into English context, but why would Casilla be giving orders to the defence in Spanish when there's no other Spanish players in your defence?
That aside, I can't say I agree with this verdict at all. Doing somebody on the basis of probability is shoddy, especially as sh-t sticks and this guy will have to carry that label around with him now. I'll wait until the FA release the written evidence about the case, but I can't help but think this has been badly misconstrued and will set a dangerous precedent for the future.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Loud stadium, players shouting around him in a crowded box, kiko speaking in broken English (we know he didn't speak much english, if any, when he arrived at the club).
I'm not saying he didnt understand him. Just saying it's a distinct possibility and a factor which should have been incorporated.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I can't see that anyone would overlook that in this case at all. It will have been one of the main arguments for the defence I would have thought and therefore taken hugely into account. But if I was working for the prosecution, then my initial question would have been one of the first I'd have asked the accused with regards to any cultural differences.
Again, I'm not saying he's remotely guilty of racism (I don't think he is personally), but if his only defence is that he's Spanish and can't speak in English, then it wouldn't be hard for the prosecution to kill that argument as it's weak at best.
posted on 29/2/20
"I'll wait until the FA release the written evidence about the case, but I can't help but think this has been badly misconstrued and will set a dangerous precedent for the future."
That's a reasonable position to take, Champers, and I agree about the danger of the precedent that has been set, not least because a man can be publicly damned on the basis of a probability. Getting out of the FL's clutches can't come soon enough - this procedure has been laughably shoddy and unprofessional.
So now it's time for young Illan Meslier to step up to the plate. He did very well at the Emirates. Good luck to him today!
posted on 29/2/20
comment by Jaz63 (U8369)
posted 12 minutes ago
"I'll wait until the FA release the written evidence about the case, but I can't help but think this has been badly misconstrued and will set a dangerous precedent for the future."
That's a reasonable position to take, Champers, and I agree about the danger of the precedent that has been set, not least because a man can be publicly damned on the basis of a probability. Getting out of the FL's clutches can't come soon enough - this procedure has been laughably shoddy and unprofessional.
So now it's time for young Illan Meslier to step up to the plate. He did very well at the Emirates. Good luck to him today!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think it's very dangerous, Jaz, and the other part of this case I've never really understood, is just how long it's taken to arrive at this decision. I know evidence gathering isn't a simple process and no doubt with character witness testimonials probably needed from Madrid it would maybe take a little longer than usual, but this has rumbled on for literally months. It's not as if it's needed Harvard levels of forensic science to ascertain what has been said or not said. Any good lip reader would need a couple of hours to arrive at a conclusive decision surely? That, and a good number of witness statements, character reports, should that really need any longer than a fortnight to pull together?
Obviously I'm not privy to how the whole process works, but murder cases have been brought to trial in half the time so why the wait? I can see the FA coming under some major scrutiny when the written evidence is released next week.
posted on 29/2/20
comment by Champers - Pow! Right in the kisser (U6859)
posted 21 minutes ago
comment by HampshireWhite (U9986)
posted 23 minutes ago
comment by Champers - Pow! Right in the kisser (U6859)
posted 23 minutes ago
comment by HampshireWhite (U9986)
posted 58 minutes ago
comment by HaveFaithInLeeds (U8688)
posted 1 hour, 24 minutes ago
What happens if Kiko writes an autobiography in 5 years time and states he meant it. He hates black people.
Is it still a disgrace of a decision.
We have no evidence so how can we say if it’s a good or bad decision.
I’m going to wait until the rest of the findings come out.
Everyone is presuming he is inocent just because he’s a Leeds player. There is nothing else to suggest one way or the other at this stage.
What we can say regardless is that the timing of the decision is a disgrace and the way that the ban has been announced with no further information. We are all debating a decision with no real basis to do so because the FA are with holding all the information. That’s shocking.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Kiko has already come out and said that he would NEVER use his words with racist meaning and I for one believe him.
https://mobile.twitter.com/KikoCasilla13/status/1233486206148710400/photo/2
Kiko has worked with many black/mixed raced players in his career. He works with black/mixed raced players pretty much every day at Leeds too. Costa, Roberts, Kalvin, JKA, some of the u23's and for half a season, Eddie Nketiah. Not one other mention and/or accusation of racism. If there were, Bielsa would not stand for it and he would be out of the club. So I'd say "on the balance of probability" he's not a racist.
I'm not presuming he's not a racist just because he's Leeds. Leko has come out and said he believed he had a racist comment directed at him by Casilla. Casilla has come out and said he would never use his words with racist meaning. I don't think either are lying - I just don't believe Leko fully understood what Kiko was saying. Maybe Kiko should have been given the chance to explain his words to Leko then see if he still wanted to continue with his complaint.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Regards the last paragraph, why wouldn't Leko understand what he was saying? I know that the Spanish word for black doesn't translate all that nicely into English context, but why would Casilla be giving orders to the defence in Spanish when there's no other Spanish players in your defence?
That aside, I can't say I agree with this verdict at all. Doing somebody on the basis of probability is shoddy, especially as sh-t sticks and this guy will have to carry that label around with him now. I'll wait until the FA release the written evidence about the case, but I can't help but think this has been badly misconstrued and will set a dangerous precedent for the future.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Loud stadium, players shouting around him in a crowded box, kiko speaking in broken English (we know he didn't speak much english, if any, when he arrived at the club).
I'm not saying he didnt understand him. Just saying it's a distinct possibility and a factor which should have been incorporated.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I can't see that anyone would overlook that in this case at all. It will have been one of the main arguments for the defence I would have thought and therefore taken hugely into account. But if I was working for the prosecution, then my initial question would have been one of the first I'd have asked the accused with regards to any cultural differences.
Again, I'm not saying he's remotely guilty of racism (I don't think he is personally), but if his only defence is that he's Spanish and can't speak in English, then it wouldn't be hard for the prosecution to kill that argument as it's weak at best.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
In the same vein the prosecution would have to prove intent and that would be incredibly difficult.
Without seeing the exact evidence its difficult to understand exactly how the FA came to their decision. All we know is that they say they came to their decision "on balance of probability" which would indicate a lack thereof.
Nobody should be found guilty of such a damning accusation without the presence of irrefutable evidence. It's plain wrong. Kiko has now been branded a racist. Could face being sacked by the club. Could struggle to gain further employment. Could be alienated by any black or mixed race friends or family he may have and on the back of what? He "probably" did it? Not only that, the club now face a difficult decision and have had their name tarnished once again and on the back of what? He "probably" did it. Sorry but for me it's a case of no evidence, no conviction and that's how it should be with anything.
If it genuinely did happen, and I'm not saying it didn't, but surely they wouldn't struggle to find evidence beyond all reasonable doubt. Even if there were 4 or 5 witness statements corroborating Leko's version of events then surely that's beyond reasonable doubt?
Like I said, I'm not sure on what evidence they have, but their choice of words makes it sound like there isn't much or any at all.
posted on 29/2/20
comment by HampshireWhite (U9986)
posted 18 minutes ago
comment by Champers - Pow! Right in the kisser (U6859)
posted 21 minutes ago
comment by HampshireWhite (U9986)
posted 23 minutes ago
comment by Champers - Pow! Right in the kisser (U6859)
posted 23 minutes ago
comment by HampshireWhite (U9986)
posted 58 minutes ago
comment by HaveFaithInLeeds (U8688)
posted 1 hour, 24 minutes ago
What happens if Kiko writes an autobiography in 5 years time and states he meant it. He hates black people.
Is it still a disgrace of a decision.
We have no evidence so how can we say if it’s a good or bad decision.
I’m going to wait until the rest of the findings come out.
Everyone is presuming he is inocent just because he’s a Leeds player. There is nothing else to suggest one way or the other at this stage.
What we can say regardless is that the timing of the decision is a disgrace and the way that the ban has been announced with no further information. We are all debating a decision with no real basis to do so because the FA are with holding all the information. That’s shocking.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Kiko has already come out and said that he would NEVER use his words with racist meaning and I for one believe him.
https://mobile.twitter.com/KikoCasilla13/status/1233486206148710400/photo/2
Kiko has worked with many black/mixed raced players in his career. He works with black/mixed raced players pretty much every day at Leeds too. Costa, Roberts, Kalvin, JKA, some of the u23's and for half a season, Eddie Nketiah. Not one other mention and/or accusation of racism. If there were, Bielsa would not stand for it and he would be out of the club. So I'd say "on the balance of probability" he's not a racist.
I'm not presuming he's not a racist just because he's Leeds. Leko has come out and said he believed he had a racist comment directed at him by Casilla. Casilla has come out and said he would never use his words with racist meaning. I don't think either are lying - I just don't believe Leko fully understood what Kiko was saying. Maybe Kiko should have been given the chance to explain his words to Leko then see if he still wanted to continue with his complaint.
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Regards the last paragraph, why wouldn't Leko understand what he was saying? I know that the Spanish word for black doesn't translate all that nicely into English context, but why would Casilla be giving orders to the defence in Spanish when there's no other Spanish players in your defence?
That aside, I can't say I agree with this verdict at all. Doing somebody on the basis of probability is shoddy, especially as sh-t sticks and this guy will have to carry that label around with him now. I'll wait until the FA release the written evidence about the case, but I can't help but think this has been badly misconstrued and will set a dangerous precedent for the future.
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Loud stadium, players shouting around him in a crowded box, kiko speaking in broken English (we know he didn't speak much english, if any, when he arrived at the club).
I'm not saying he didnt understand him. Just saying it's a distinct possibility and a factor which should have been incorporated.
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I can't see that anyone would overlook that in this case at all. It will have been one of the main arguments for the defence I would have thought and therefore taken hugely into account. But if I was working for the prosecution, then my initial question would have been one of the first I'd have asked the accused with regards to any cultural differences.
Again, I'm not saying he's remotely guilty of racism (I don't think he is personally), but if his only defence is that he's Spanish and can't speak in English, then it wouldn't be hard for the prosecution to kill that argument as it's weak at best.
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In the same vein the prosecution would have to prove intent and that would be incredibly difficult.
Without seeing the exact evidence its difficult to understand exactly how the FA came to their decision. All we know is that they say they came to their decision "on balance of probability" which would indicate a lack thereof.
Nobody should be found guilty of such a damning accusation without the presence of irrefutable evidence. It's plain wrong. Kiko has now been branded a racist. Could face being sacked by the club. Could struggle to gain further employment. Could be alienated by any black or mixed race friends or family he may have and on the back of what? He "probably" did it? Not only that, the club now face a difficult decision and have had their name tarnished once again and on the back of what? He "probably" did it. Sorry but for me it's a case of no evidence, no conviction and that's how it should be with anything.
If it genuinely did happen, and I'm not saying it didn't, but surely they wouldn't struggle to find evidence beyond all reasonable doubt. Even if there were 4 or 5 witness statements corroborating Leko's version of events then surely that's beyond reasonable doubt?
Like I said, I'm not sure on what evidence they have, but their choice of words makes it sound like there isn't much or any at all.
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Agree with pretty much all of that in terms of my personal stance on it, Hampshire.
posted on 29/2/20
comment by Champers - Pow! Right in the kisser (U6859)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by HampshireWhite (U9986)
posted 18 minutes ago
comment by Champers - Pow! Right in the kisser (U6859)
posted 21 minutes ago
comment by HampshireWhite (U9986)
posted 23 minutes ago
comment by Champers - Pow! Right in the kisser (U6859)
posted 23 minutes ago
comment by HampshireWhite (U9986)
posted 58 minutes ago
comment by HaveFaithInLeeds (U8688)
posted 1 hour, 24 minutes ago
What happens if Kiko writes an autobiography in 5 years time and states he meant it. He hates black people.
Is it still a disgrace of a decision.
We have no evidence so how can we say if it’s a good or bad decision.
I’m going to wait until the rest of the findings come out.
Everyone is presuming he is inocent just because he’s a Leeds player. There is nothing else to suggest one way or the other at this stage.
What we can say regardless is that the timing of the decision is a disgrace and the way that the ban has been announced with no further information. We are all debating a decision with no real basis to do so because the FA are with holding all the information. That’s shocking.
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Kiko has already come out and said that he would NEVER use his words with racist meaning and I for one believe him.
https://mobile.twitter.com/KikoCasilla13/status/1233486206148710400/photo/2
Kiko has worked with many black/mixed raced players in his career. He works with black/mixed raced players pretty much every day at Leeds too. Costa, Roberts, Kalvin, JKA, some of the u23's and for half a season, Eddie Nketiah. Not one other mention and/or accusation of racism. If there were, Bielsa would not stand for it and he would be out of the club. So I'd say "on the balance of probability" he's not a racist.
I'm not presuming he's not a racist just because he's Leeds. Leko has come out and said he believed he had a racist comment directed at him by Casilla. Casilla has come out and said he would never use his words with racist meaning. I don't think either are lying - I just don't believe Leko fully understood what Kiko was saying. Maybe Kiko should have been given the chance to explain his words to Leko then see if he still wanted to continue with his complaint.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Regards the last paragraph, why wouldn't Leko understand what he was saying? I know that the Spanish word for black doesn't translate all that nicely into English context, but why would Casilla be giving orders to the defence in Spanish when there's no other Spanish players in your defence?
That aside, I can't say I agree with this verdict at all. Doing somebody on the basis of probability is shoddy, especially as sh-t sticks and this guy will have to carry that label around with him now. I'll wait until the FA release the written evidence about the case, but I can't help but think this has been badly misconstrued and will set a dangerous precedent for the future.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Loud stadium, players shouting around him in a crowded box, kiko speaking in broken English (we know he didn't speak much english, if any, when he arrived at the club).
I'm not saying he didnt understand him. Just saying it's a distinct possibility and a factor which should have been incorporated.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I can't see that anyone would overlook that in this case at all. It will have been one of the main arguments for the defence I would have thought and therefore taken hugely into account. But if I was working for the prosecution, then my initial question would have been one of the first I'd have asked the accused with regards to any cultural differences.
Again, I'm not saying he's remotely guilty of racism (I don't think he is personally), but if his only defence is that he's Spanish and can't speak in English, then it wouldn't be hard for the prosecution to kill that argument as it's weak at best.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
In the same vein the prosecution would have to prove intent and that would be incredibly difficult.
Without seeing the exact evidence its difficult to understand exactly how the FA came to their decision. All we know is that they say they came to their decision "on balance of probability" which would indicate a lack thereof.
Nobody should be found guilty of such a damning accusation without the presence of irrefutable evidence. It's plain wrong. Kiko has now been branded a racist. Could face being sacked by the club. Could struggle to gain further employment. Could be alienated by any black or mixed race friends or family he may have and on the back of what? He "probably" did it? Not only that, the club now face a difficult decision and have had their name tarnished once again and on the back of what? He "probably" did it. Sorry but for me it's a case of no evidence, no conviction and that's how it should be with anything.
If it genuinely did happen, and I'm not saying it didn't, but surely they wouldn't struggle to find evidence beyond all reasonable doubt. Even if there were 4 or 5 witness statements corroborating Leko's version of events then surely that's beyond reasonable doubt?
Like I said, I'm not sure on what evidence they have, but their choice of words makes it sound like there isn't much or any at all.
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Agree with pretty much all of that in terms of my personal stance on it, Hampshire.
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Not trying to be difficult or anything, Champers, and I hope it didn't come off that way.
Totally respect the points that yourself and HaveFaith have made.
posted on 29/2/20
comment by Stevie Dee (U10061)
posted 2 hours, 25 minutes ago
comment by HaveFaithInLeeds (U8688)
posted 21 minutes ago
Hampshire. I think you’re right. I think the same.
But it’s not based on real reason.
I don’t know either of the players. I don’t have a clue what evidence there was. And I don’t have anyway of checking what was actually said.
So what is the basis for me thinking he won’t have meant anything racist?
The irony here is that we as a fan base are coming down like a tonne of bricks on the Fa for convicting Casilla without enough evidence before we have any idea what evidence they had.
We have to be fair and live by the standards we expect of others.
We have no idea what happened in that hearing over two days.
It might be a different matter once we find out what happened.
But let’s be honest we think he’s innocent because he’s Leeds.
Had Radebe accused Roy Keane of the same crime and we had the same evidence or lack of, we would all think he is guilty.
It’s the nature of being a partisan football fan. We all do it.
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I personally don't believe he's innocent because he's Leeds United. I think that's a little presumptive on your part and in many respects makes you guilty too. I'm a reasonably intelligent 56 year old forming an opinion based on the comments and experiences I have encountered.
Given the robust defence and continued denial I'd be surprised if he came out in 5 years' time and admitted he was a racist.
We live in a democracy where you are innocent until proven guilty. I work for a Government agency which takes care of those who are found to be at the wrong end of that judicial process.
I'm Leeds United through and through but does that mean we blindly accept a potential miscarriage of justice for fear of being labelled partisan?
I think not.
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Don’t disagree with your intelligence and will always consider everyone’s opinions on here. I definitely am being presumptuous too. That’s the problem here. The grey area is huge.
Almost everything about the incident. The evidence and the process is a grey area with very few facts.
That’s why I think it’s too early to say one way or the other.
I do think there is a greater risk that racists will abuse other players if they think they can get away with, than the risk that players will invent racists accusations if they think they can get away with it.
Balance of probability doesn’t mean 50/50 and is widely used in this country with the exception of criminal cases. So it’s not a ridiculous FA concept.
It has huge flaws though & if Kiko is innocent then he will have been vilified and grossly mistreated.
posted on 29/2/20
I've said lots of things here where I've taken the English way and translated it to German!..
Mates have said a few times that's not right, they've corrected me and I've questioned why?..
Its a simple case of what I've learnt doesn't come over the same in a different language, in Kiko's language what he has said could be completely normal but in English its taken the wrong way!..
Somebody has said something he's thought normal and it been taken the way its understood, which for Kiko might be right but said in the wrong place!..
This is a case of misunderstanding or someone that has taken it the way it wasn't meant!..
Or someone that knows the race card works in his favour!..
posted on 1/3/20
Found this a very good summation of the situation...
https://t.co/UGr9g36I6W?amp=1
posted on 1/3/20
Good read indeed!
“ Right, I’m inadvisedly addressing the Kiko thing because I’d feel like a coward not even mentioning it once given that I tweet about anything & everything loosely relating to Leeds Utd. Forgive the indulgence.
The bigger point that has to be made is that racially abusing someone is never ever acceptable & the first thing any of us should be doing is showing support for Jonathan Leko. I do not believe he made this up, I believe that he felt that he was subjected to racist abuse.
I don’t believe that apropos of nothing Leko decided to report a fellow professional for racial abuse in a relatively nothing game that conferred no significant advantage to him or his side. That doesn’t ring true so we have to assume he’s telling the truth, sad as it is.
The question then becomes what was said & the context - at this point, we simply don’t know. Maybe the report will tell us more, I fully expect it to be a difficult & potentially upsetting read. Nothing about this situation is going to be easy for any of those involved.
There’s a chance that Kiko was misheard or misinterpreted but there’s every chance that he was careless with his words or lost his temper & said something not representative of his actual character. This is a very common & sadly very human occurrence. It does happen.
To the question of whether a racist utterance or using the language of racism makes one a racist, it’s a complicated issue. I don’t believe that one statement in a lifetime is sufficient to condemn a man as a racist in perpetuity. It’s more complicated than that.
I can only use myself as an example - I’ve said some stuff in stressful situations that would look ugly on paper, especially bereft of context. I’m 35 in a multicultural city & I still to this day find myself challenged on a semi-regular basis by people I consider friends.
The central premise of restorative or transformative justice is that a person is never incapable of redemption, nor are they defined by their worst moments. There is no benefit to indefinitely othering a person because human beings are prone to making mistakes by nature.
As much as we should believe Leko, who did something very brave & has certainly not benefitted from this sorry affair, we are also obligated to be mindful of the people who came to Kiko’s defence & provided character statements. This includes teammates past & present.
I also believe those people who came forward to say that Kiko has never displayed any racist behaviour towards or in front of them because I certainly do not believe that Casilla believes in the superiority or inferiority of any race over any other.
However, it remains plausible that Kiko said something that did not reflect his actual views & in that moment did himself an injustice. He has released what reads to me as heartfelt rejection of racism as an ideology & I fully believe him too. There’s no reason not to.
Leeds Utd has an unfortunate association in some corners for sickening instances of racism in the past & I can only admire the way various stewards of the club & indeed fans have worked tirelessly to address the transgressions of bygone eras. There is yet work to be done.
Thus, it’s hard to countenance the idea that someone in a Leeds Utd shirt could have racially abused another player in this day & age but if it is the case, we must face this with consideration & sensitivity because we owe it to our ourselves to be brutally frank.
However, I also do not think that we should permanently ostracise Kiko Casilla if that is the case. His earnest opinion on racism is now in the public domain & if he had a moment of regrettable weakness, we should still be supportive of him as a representative of our club.
Kiko has been banned & the club appears to have accepted his punishment. He will serve his ban & to me that essentially concludes this as an issue. Being supportive of him now & after is not condoning racism, it is instead part of the ongoing accountability process.
There will inevitably be lots of speculation & discussion but fundamentally, what happened on that day is a timely reminder that we should all strive to be better, even better than the incremental progress we’ve all strived to achieve since the dark days of the past.
As such, we should all be very wary not to perpetuate the harm done in this instance & certainly not be inconsiderate to Jonathan Leko, who in this instance represents the ongoing fight against racism. We must embrace him as one of our own & swallow our pride.
But this also does not mean that we should turn our back on Kiko Casilla. We will likely never know specifically what happened & can only accept that to err is to be human, which only emphasises the fundamental equality of all people, regardless of race. This is the lesson.”
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