comment by Gingernuts (U2992)
posted 33 minutes ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 8 minutes ago
My whole company has been put on 80%. Everybody except me. They want me in two days per week, starting tomorrow.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Unless you're public sector or a necessary trade or someone who has just become much busier I see this as being the norm in the next 2 weeks or so.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Some public sector have gone to a 3 week rota... 1 week on 2 off... To protect staff and allow proper distancing
I'm civil service in a benefits centre ... My office went like
this from yesterday
comment by Colemanballs (U22246)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 2 minutes ago
Colemanballs, as I said, I don't want this thread to be another one where people argue whether the government is right or wrong. That's not the topic. But on a wider level, this pandemic is an illustration of the need for government and the limits of a laissez faire approach to society. You can't leave it up to individuals to decide when a situation requires collective compliance and the consequences of not following advice are grave not just for the individual, but for society as a whole. Similarly, the economic consequences of the crisis magnify the existing flaws of deregulated labour laws and the insecurities of the gig economy.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I've not either praised nor blamed the government here.All I have said is people should apply some common sense and not wait for the government to tell them everything.
If you are elderly and not in work then why wait to be told to self isolate.If you can aoid public transport then do so.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think it's been far too clearly demonstrated that too large a section of the public and indeed many large organisations simply can't be trusted.
The government tried that and as a population we failed.
They've now tried it with business and (mainly in the construction market) they are failing too.
I don't expect anything other than a much firmer crackdown now and likely in the next 2-3 days.
comment by Shugs (U14253)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Gingernuts (U2992)
posted 33 minutes ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 8 minutes ago
My whole company has been put on 80%. Everybody except me. They want me in two days per week, starting tomorrow.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Unless you're public sector or a necessary trade or someone who has just become much busier I see this as being the norm in the next 2 weeks or so.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Some public sector have gone to a 3 week rota... 1 week on 2 off... To protect staff and allow proper distancing
I'm civil service in a benefits centre ... My office went like
this from yesterday
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Really?
I'm guessing pay hasn't been changed though
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
comment by Dave (U11711)
posted 4 seconds ago
comment by Irishred (U2539)
posted 55 minutes ago
Good article OP
On a completely selfish note, golf courses are starting to close over here
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's unfortunate. Over here there is no chance of me spreading the virus. I barely see another human for most of the 18, I'm too busy fighting drop bears and dingos for my ball in the forest.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ill be over for a two ball (Ooeer Missus) as soon as I can sort a flight
How is everything?
comment by Gingernuts (U2992)
posted 12 minutes ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Gingernuts (U2992)
posted 27 seconds ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 3 minutes ago
"If you wanted to lets say self isolate earlier than the government advised then there was no reason why you couldn't."
Which of course is absolute nonsense, considering you would have received £94.25 per week, instead of the 80% of your salary on offer when the business has to close.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That scheme is way less simple than the headlines. There is a significant amount of legal advice and warnings about simply taking it at face value.
Furthermore, an employee's wages are only part of their cost depending upon their job role.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Looks simple enough. I received the form yesterday, which I was then told not to complete as they want to give me full pay, due to coming in two days per week.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
HMRC will be the decider. You have to demonstrate that you would have otherwise made these people redundant.
If you make reasonable profits and God forbid pay out dividends then they are likely to refuse payment on the grounds you didn’t need to make these cost savings.
There’s an ongoing discussion as to whether it is basic salary or to include all benefits including the cost of ENIC.
Filling out a form and applying won’t guarantee payment for the other. As for you, your employer has decided to pay you as normal. That’s their choice and their part of the employment contract with you. They’re just keeping to it is all.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah I think my company can easily demonstrate that. If companies can't then they shouldn't be applying for it anyhow as they can cover it.
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 4 seconds ago
comment by Gingernuts (U2992)
posted 12 minutes ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Gingernuts (U2992)
posted 27 seconds ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 3 minutes ago
"If you wanted to lets say self isolate earlier than the government advised then there was no reason why you couldn't."
Which of course is absolute nonsense, considering you would have received £94.25 per week, instead of the 80% of your salary on offer when the business has to close.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That scheme is way less simple than the headlines. There is a significant amount of legal advice and warnings about simply taking it at face value.
Furthermore, an employee's wages are only part of their cost depending upon their job role.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Looks simple enough. I received the form yesterday, which I was then told not to complete as they want to give me full pay, due to coming in two days per week.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
HMRC will be the decider. You have to demonstrate that you would have otherwise made these people redundant.
If you make reasonable profits and God forbid pay out dividends then they are likely to refuse payment on the grounds you didn’t need to make these cost savings.
There’s an ongoing discussion as to whether it is basic salary or to include all benefits including the cost of ENIC.
Filling out a form and applying won’t guarantee payment for the other. As for you, your employer has decided to pay you as normal. That’s their choice and their part of the employment contract with you. They’re just keeping to it is all.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah I think my company can easily demonstrate that. If companies can't then they shouldn't be applying for it anyhow as they can cover it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Many will still apply thinking it is that simple.
Mine being one. Idiots
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
comment by Irishred (U2539)
posted 1 hour, 10 minutes ago
Good article OP
On a completely selfish note, golf courses are starting to close over here
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Irish golf union announced all courses to be closed
Suppose it depends on how open your course is to access... Nobody to stop you going on to hit a few balls about
comment by Shugs (U14253)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Irishred (U2539)
posted 1 hour, 10 minutes ago
Good article OP
On a completely selfish note, golf courses are starting to close over here
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Irish golf union announced all courses to be closed
Suppose it depends on how open your course is to access... Nobody to stop you going on to hit a few balls about
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah
Invite some friends and spark up the barbecue
Prince Charles testing positive
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
comment by Colemanballs (U22246)
posted 44 minutes ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 36 seconds ago
"If you wanted to lets say self isolate earlier than the government advised then there was no reason why you couldn't."
Which of course is absolute nonsense, considering you would have received £94.25 per week, instead of the 80% of your salary on offer when the business has to close.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sandy is allegedly a pensioner and one of those in greater peril.
He could have self isolated at any time he wanted without the government telling him to.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
How do you know I didn`t? But that does not answer the question of why the underground is still open.
comment by Colemanballs (U22246)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 2 minutes ago
Colemanballs, as I said, I don't want this thread to be another one where people argue whether the government is right or wrong. That's not the topic. But on a wider level, this pandemic is an illustration of the need for government and the limits of a laissez faire approach to society. You can't leave it up to individuals to decide when a situation requires collective compliance and the consequences of not following advice are grave not just for the individual, but for society as a whole. Similarly, the economic consequences of the crisis magnify the existing flaws of deregulated labour laws and the insecurities of the gig economy.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I've not either praised nor blamed the government here.All I have said is people should apply some common sense and not wait for the government to tell them everything.
If you are elderly and not in work then why wait to be told to self isolate.If you can aoid public transport then do so.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I was making a wider point about the role of government (and not accusing you of taking a specific position). This current crisis is the ultimate illustration of the need for government intervention, or the 'nanny state' as you pejoratively put it.
- When you need universal compliance in order to protect the public and not just to protect the individual involved, then you need the government to make it a rule. People and organisations who ignore advice aren't just putting themselves at risk, so it needs to be enforced.
- The economy would fail to keep much of the population above the water without government intervention. In the coming months we'll have a clearer picture of how lack of state support / employment rights for people working in the gig economy made it harder for the government to impose public distancing (despite its good intentions) during the critical points of the delay phase of the strategy.
- Whatever issues with NHS underfunding, the healthcare system would fail far more catastrophically if we didn't have a coordinated structure being led in the interests of public health. In the coming months we'll have a clearer picture of how for example the healthcare ecosystem in the USA - fragmented and with many people lacking adequate coverage - exacerbated efforts to delay the spread and limit the death toll.
Criticising the nanny state right now is like moaning on about having too many health and safety regulations on the morning of Grenfell.
comment by Dave (U11711)
posted 10 minutes ago
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/25/border-force-blames-nsw-health-for-letting-ruby-princess-dock-without-coronavirus-checks
If anyone wants a laugh.
Less than a week ago, months after the virus was known about, a week after the govt here banned all cruise ship docking and disembarkation, and with the pandemic exploding all over the world, the government let's a ship of 2,700 disembark in Sydney.
Okay, nothing too wrong with that, right?
Wrong. 130 people on the cruise had already self reported being sick so the government took some swabs of people and everyone, including the sick, left and went on their way all over the country.
Four days later, tests showed that 130 people tested positive and there is no idea how many others of the 2,700 + staff were subsequently infected but asymptomatic prior to spreading it everywhere they went for half a week!
MENTAL!!!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Patient 31 story from South Korea is frightening... 1 person responsible for 60% of the total cases in the country... 5k+ traced to 1 person and they were just leading a normal life
Think of that multiplied by the numbers coming off that ship
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 55 seconds ago
comment by Colemanballs (U22246)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 2 minutes ago
Colemanballs, as I said, I don't want this thread to be another one where people argue whether the government is right or wrong. That's not the topic. But on a wider level, this pandemic is an illustration of the need for government and the limits of a laissez faire approach to society. You can't leave it up to individuals to decide when a situation requires collective compliance and the consequences of not following advice are grave not just for the individual, but for society as a whole. Similarly, the economic consequences of the crisis magnify the existing flaws of deregulated labour laws and the insecurities of the gig economy.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I've not either praised nor blamed the government here.All I have said is people should apply some common sense and not wait for the government to tell them everything.
If you are elderly and not in work then why wait to be told to self isolate.If you can aoid public transport then do so.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I was making a wider point about the role of government (and not accusing you of taking a specific position). This current crisis is the ultimate illustration of the need for government intervention, or the 'nanny state' as you pejoratively put it.
- When you need universal compliance in order to protect the public and not just to protect the individual involved, then you need the government to make it a rule. People and organisations who ignore advice aren't just putting themselves at risk, so it needs to be enforced.
- The economy would fail to keep much of the population above the water without government intervention. In the coming months we'll have a clearer picture of how lack of state support / employment rights for people working in the gig economy made it harder for the government to impose public distancing (despite its good intentions) during the critical points of the delay phase of the strategy.
- Whatever issues with NHS underfunding, the healthcare system would fail far more catastrophically if we didn't have a coordinated structure being led in the interests of public health. In the coming months we'll have a clearer picture of how for example the healthcare ecosystem in the USA - fragmented and with many people lacking adequate coverage - exacerbated efforts to delay the spread and limit the death toll.
Criticising the nanny state right now is like moaning on about having too many health and safety regulations on the morning of Grenfell.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
There were well established laws in place for the Grenfell disaster which if followed wouldn’t have allowed it to happen.
Right now there are no laws for any of the governments instructions. We live by the law of the land which is exactly what the people of this country want.
You can’t have an interventionist government when it suits and abandon it when it doesn’t. You need to put in new laws. They’re expected tomorrow.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
comment by Cal Neva (U11544)
posted 1 hour, 2 minutes ago
comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 7 minutes ago
The more I see from the U.K. Govt in comparison to the one I am living under leads me to the conclusion that you guys are in much better hands than the US is.
The clown only last night was telling people he wanted to get them back to work at Easter.m
I kid you not.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes we heard that. Sounds like either wishful thinking and or he is panning to open up those areas less affected. But that sounds a high risk strategy.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It isn’t wishful thinking with him it is purely for his own self interest.
There were well established laws in place for the Grenfell disaster which if followed wouldn’t have allowed it to happen.
Right now there are no laws for any of the governments instructions. We live by the law of the land which is exactly what the people of this country want.
You can’t have an interventionist government when it suits and abandon it when it doesn’t. You need to put in new laws. They’re expected tomorrow.
-----------------------------------------------------------
The trick is to find the right balance. For instance, though China's authoritarianism seems to have helped it impose the shut-down more effectively than we can, I wouldn't want to live that way (and, as I mentioned in the OP, we can also see that the authoritarian culture made it harder for China to admit it had a problem in the first place). At the other extreme, total lack of regulation creates all sorts of terrible problems.
I'd argue that it was clear before Corona that we needed a bit (not a lot, a bit) more state regulation and intervention, because inequality was growing, job insecurity was unbearable for many, more and more people were in employment but still below the poverty line, and we weren't addressing existential environmental issues with sufficient urgency. It seems that even the Tories were coming round to that idea, and Keynesian economics was starting to creep back into their policy strategies. But that's a discussion for another day.
As for Grenfell, there's a whole lot of failures that led to that tragedy. My comment wasn't alleging that lack of regulation was the cause, but that there are plenty of people who think we already have too much health and safety, that it's another form of political correctness. Personally, I'd be more comfortable that further Grenfells wouldn't happen if regulations were strengthened and the relevant authorities had more budget to enforce them.
Australia is really facking this up.
On the one hand, we must go to work (in my case we've got 100+ blokes on a not partucularly big job site which is next to an old peoples home). Schools will not be closed. In the case of those working, no there is not a choice to or not to unless you're talking about putting your job and finances into jeopardy at the most risky time to do so in decades
On the other hand, everyone stay 2m apart, national parks will be closed etc etc
Makes no sense surely???
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Fair play working on the front line, UWW
comment by United we win (U19958)
posted 6 minutes ago
Hospitals are doing the best they can as where I work, ppe is running out and as a radiographer taking x rays in small confined space and in rooms with positive and suspected cases, it is a big risk and right now it’s endless mobile x rays.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
#OleOut
comment by Ji Sung Park's Cousin - Ole's joy Manticore (U2958)
posted 3 minutes ago
Fair play working on the front line, UWW
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I hope Ole does not need treatment where he works
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Sign in if you want to comment
Now isn't the time to criticise government
Page 4 of 6
6
posted on 25/3/20
comment by Gingernuts (U2992)
posted 33 minutes ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 8 minutes ago
My whole company has been put on 80%. Everybody except me. They want me in two days per week, starting tomorrow.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Unless you're public sector or a necessary trade or someone who has just become much busier I see this as being the norm in the next 2 weeks or so.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Some public sector have gone to a 3 week rota... 1 week on 2 off... To protect staff and allow proper distancing
I'm civil service in a benefits centre ... My office went like
this from yesterday
posted on 25/3/20
comment by Colemanballs (U22246)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 2 minutes ago
Colemanballs, as I said, I don't want this thread to be another one where people argue whether the government is right or wrong. That's not the topic. But on a wider level, this pandemic is an illustration of the need for government and the limits of a laissez faire approach to society. You can't leave it up to individuals to decide when a situation requires collective compliance and the consequences of not following advice are grave not just for the individual, but for society as a whole. Similarly, the economic consequences of the crisis magnify the existing flaws of deregulated labour laws and the insecurities of the gig economy.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I've not either praised nor blamed the government here.All I have said is people should apply some common sense and not wait for the government to tell them everything.
If you are elderly and not in work then why wait to be told to self isolate.If you can aoid public transport then do so.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think it's been far too clearly demonstrated that too large a section of the public and indeed many large organisations simply can't be trusted.
The government tried that and as a population we failed.
They've now tried it with business and (mainly in the construction market) they are failing too.
I don't expect anything other than a much firmer crackdown now and likely in the next 2-3 days.
posted on 25/3/20
comment by Shugs (U14253)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Gingernuts (U2992)
posted 33 minutes ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 8 minutes ago
My whole company has been put on 80%. Everybody except me. They want me in two days per week, starting tomorrow.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Unless you're public sector or a necessary trade or someone who has just become much busier I see this as being the norm in the next 2 weeks or so.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Some public sector have gone to a 3 week rota... 1 week on 2 off... To protect staff and allow proper distancing
I'm civil service in a benefits centre ... My office went like
this from yesterday
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Really?
I'm guessing pay hasn't been changed though
posted on 25/3/20
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 25/3/20
comment by Dave (U11711)
posted 4 seconds ago
comment by Irishred (U2539)
posted 55 minutes ago
Good article OP
On a completely selfish note, golf courses are starting to close over here
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's unfortunate. Over here there is no chance of me spreading the virus. I barely see another human for most of the 18, I'm too busy fighting drop bears and dingos for my ball in the forest.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ill be over for a two ball (Ooeer Missus) as soon as I can sort a flight
How is everything?
posted on 25/3/20
comment by Gingernuts (U2992)
posted 12 minutes ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Gingernuts (U2992)
posted 27 seconds ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 3 minutes ago
"If you wanted to lets say self isolate earlier than the government advised then there was no reason why you couldn't."
Which of course is absolute nonsense, considering you would have received £94.25 per week, instead of the 80% of your salary on offer when the business has to close.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That scheme is way less simple than the headlines. There is a significant amount of legal advice and warnings about simply taking it at face value.
Furthermore, an employee's wages are only part of their cost depending upon their job role.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Looks simple enough. I received the form yesterday, which I was then told not to complete as they want to give me full pay, due to coming in two days per week.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
HMRC will be the decider. You have to demonstrate that you would have otherwise made these people redundant.
If you make reasonable profits and God forbid pay out dividends then they are likely to refuse payment on the grounds you didn’t need to make these cost savings.
There’s an ongoing discussion as to whether it is basic salary or to include all benefits including the cost of ENIC.
Filling out a form and applying won’t guarantee payment for the other. As for you, your employer has decided to pay you as normal. That’s their choice and their part of the employment contract with you. They’re just keeping to it is all.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah I think my company can easily demonstrate that. If companies can't then they shouldn't be applying for it anyhow as they can cover it.
posted on 25/3/20
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 4 seconds ago
comment by Gingernuts (U2992)
posted 12 minutes ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Gingernuts (U2992)
posted 27 seconds ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 3 minutes ago
"If you wanted to lets say self isolate earlier than the government advised then there was no reason why you couldn't."
Which of course is absolute nonsense, considering you would have received £94.25 per week, instead of the 80% of your salary on offer when the business has to close.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That scheme is way less simple than the headlines. There is a significant amount of legal advice and warnings about simply taking it at face value.
Furthermore, an employee's wages are only part of their cost depending upon their job role.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Looks simple enough. I received the form yesterday, which I was then told not to complete as they want to give me full pay, due to coming in two days per week.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
HMRC will be the decider. You have to demonstrate that you would have otherwise made these people redundant.
If you make reasonable profits and God forbid pay out dividends then they are likely to refuse payment on the grounds you didn’t need to make these cost savings.
There’s an ongoing discussion as to whether it is basic salary or to include all benefits including the cost of ENIC.
Filling out a form and applying won’t guarantee payment for the other. As for you, your employer has decided to pay you as normal. That’s their choice and their part of the employment contract with you. They’re just keeping to it is all.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah I think my company can easily demonstrate that. If companies can't then they shouldn't be applying for it anyhow as they can cover it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Many will still apply thinking it is that simple.
Mine being one. Idiots
posted on 25/3/20
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 25/3/20
comment by Irishred (U2539)
posted 1 hour, 10 minutes ago
Good article OP
On a completely selfish note, golf courses are starting to close over here
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Irish golf union announced all courses to be closed
Suppose it depends on how open your course is to access... Nobody to stop you going on to hit a few balls about
posted on 25/3/20
comment by Shugs (U14253)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Irishred (U2539)
posted 1 hour, 10 minutes ago
Good article OP
On a completely selfish note, golf courses are starting to close over here
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Irish golf union announced all courses to be closed
Suppose it depends on how open your course is to access... Nobody to stop you going on to hit a few balls about
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah
Invite some friends and spark up the barbecue
posted on 25/3/20
Prince Charles testing positive
posted on 25/3/20
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 25/3/20
comment by Colemanballs (U22246)
posted 44 minutes ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 36 seconds ago
"If you wanted to lets say self isolate earlier than the government advised then there was no reason why you couldn't."
Which of course is absolute nonsense, considering you would have received £94.25 per week, instead of the 80% of your salary on offer when the business has to close.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sandy is allegedly a pensioner and one of those in greater peril.
He could have self isolated at any time he wanted without the government telling him to.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
How do you know I didn`t? But that does not answer the question of why the underground is still open.
posted on 25/3/20
comment by Colemanballs (U22246)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 2 minutes ago
Colemanballs, as I said, I don't want this thread to be another one where people argue whether the government is right or wrong. That's not the topic. But on a wider level, this pandemic is an illustration of the need for government and the limits of a laissez faire approach to society. You can't leave it up to individuals to decide when a situation requires collective compliance and the consequences of not following advice are grave not just for the individual, but for society as a whole. Similarly, the economic consequences of the crisis magnify the existing flaws of deregulated labour laws and the insecurities of the gig economy.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I've not either praised nor blamed the government here.All I have said is people should apply some common sense and not wait for the government to tell them everything.
If you are elderly and not in work then why wait to be told to self isolate.If you can aoid public transport then do so.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I was making a wider point about the role of government (and not accusing you of taking a specific position). This current crisis is the ultimate illustration of the need for government intervention, or the 'nanny state' as you pejoratively put it.
- When you need universal compliance in order to protect the public and not just to protect the individual involved, then you need the government to make it a rule. People and organisations who ignore advice aren't just putting themselves at risk, so it needs to be enforced.
- The economy would fail to keep much of the population above the water without government intervention. In the coming months we'll have a clearer picture of how lack of state support / employment rights for people working in the gig economy made it harder for the government to impose public distancing (despite its good intentions) during the critical points of the delay phase of the strategy.
- Whatever issues with NHS underfunding, the healthcare system would fail far more catastrophically if we didn't have a coordinated structure being led in the interests of public health. In the coming months we'll have a clearer picture of how for example the healthcare ecosystem in the USA - fragmented and with many people lacking adequate coverage - exacerbated efforts to delay the spread and limit the death toll.
Criticising the nanny state right now is like moaning on about having too many health and safety regulations on the morning of Grenfell.
posted on 25/3/20
comment by Dave (U11711)
posted 10 minutes ago
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/25/border-force-blames-nsw-health-for-letting-ruby-princess-dock-without-coronavirus-checks
If anyone wants a laugh.
Less than a week ago, months after the virus was known about, a week after the govt here banned all cruise ship docking and disembarkation, and with the pandemic exploding all over the world, the government let's a ship of 2,700 disembark in Sydney.
Okay, nothing too wrong with that, right?
Wrong. 130 people on the cruise had already self reported being sick so the government took some swabs of people and everyone, including the sick, left and went on their way all over the country.
Four days later, tests showed that 130 people tested positive and there is no idea how many others of the 2,700 + staff were subsequently infected but asymptomatic prior to spreading it everywhere they went for half a week!
MENTAL!!!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Patient 31 story from South Korea is frightening... 1 person responsible for 60% of the total cases in the country... 5k+ traced to 1 person and they were just leading a normal life
Think of that multiplied by the numbers coming off that ship
posted on 25/3/20
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 55 seconds ago
comment by Colemanballs (U22246)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 2 minutes ago
Colemanballs, as I said, I don't want this thread to be another one where people argue whether the government is right or wrong. That's not the topic. But on a wider level, this pandemic is an illustration of the need for government and the limits of a laissez faire approach to society. You can't leave it up to individuals to decide when a situation requires collective compliance and the consequences of not following advice are grave not just for the individual, but for society as a whole. Similarly, the economic consequences of the crisis magnify the existing flaws of deregulated labour laws and the insecurities of the gig economy.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I've not either praised nor blamed the government here.All I have said is people should apply some common sense and not wait for the government to tell them everything.
If you are elderly and not in work then why wait to be told to self isolate.If you can aoid public transport then do so.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I was making a wider point about the role of government (and not accusing you of taking a specific position). This current crisis is the ultimate illustration of the need for government intervention, or the 'nanny state' as you pejoratively put it.
- When you need universal compliance in order to protect the public and not just to protect the individual involved, then you need the government to make it a rule. People and organisations who ignore advice aren't just putting themselves at risk, so it needs to be enforced.
- The economy would fail to keep much of the population above the water without government intervention. In the coming months we'll have a clearer picture of how lack of state support / employment rights for people working in the gig economy made it harder for the government to impose public distancing (despite its good intentions) during the critical points of the delay phase of the strategy.
- Whatever issues with NHS underfunding, the healthcare system would fail far more catastrophically if we didn't have a coordinated structure being led in the interests of public health. In the coming months we'll have a clearer picture of how for example the healthcare ecosystem in the USA - fragmented and with many people lacking adequate coverage - exacerbated efforts to delay the spread and limit the death toll.
Criticising the nanny state right now is like moaning on about having too many health and safety regulations on the morning of Grenfell.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
There were well established laws in place for the Grenfell disaster which if followed wouldn’t have allowed it to happen.
Right now there are no laws for any of the governments instructions. We live by the law of the land which is exactly what the people of this country want.
You can’t have an interventionist government when it suits and abandon it when it doesn’t. You need to put in new laws. They’re expected tomorrow.
posted on 25/3/20
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 25/3/20
comment by Cal Neva (U11544)
posted 1 hour, 2 minutes ago
comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 7 minutes ago
The more I see from the U.K. Govt in comparison to the one I am living under leads me to the conclusion that you guys are in much better hands than the US is.
The clown only last night was telling people he wanted to get them back to work at Easter.m
I kid you not.
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Yes we heard that. Sounds like either wishful thinking and or he is panning to open up those areas less affected. But that sounds a high risk strategy.
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It isn’t wishful thinking with him it is purely for his own self interest.
posted on 25/3/20
There were well established laws in place for the Grenfell disaster which if followed wouldn’t have allowed it to happen.
Right now there are no laws for any of the governments instructions. We live by the law of the land which is exactly what the people of this country want.
You can’t have an interventionist government when it suits and abandon it when it doesn’t. You need to put in new laws. They’re expected tomorrow.
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The trick is to find the right balance. For instance, though China's authoritarianism seems to have helped it impose the shut-down more effectively than we can, I wouldn't want to live that way (and, as I mentioned in the OP, we can also see that the authoritarian culture made it harder for China to admit it had a problem in the first place). At the other extreme, total lack of regulation creates all sorts of terrible problems.
I'd argue that it was clear before Corona that we needed a bit (not a lot, a bit) more state regulation and intervention, because inequality was growing, job insecurity was unbearable for many, more and more people were in employment but still below the poverty line, and we weren't addressing existential environmental issues with sufficient urgency. It seems that even the Tories were coming round to that idea, and Keynesian economics was starting to creep back into their policy strategies. But that's a discussion for another day.
As for Grenfell, there's a whole lot of failures that led to that tragedy. My comment wasn't alleging that lack of regulation was the cause, but that there are plenty of people who think we already have too much health and safety, that it's another form of political correctness. Personally, I'd be more comfortable that further Grenfells wouldn't happen if regulations were strengthened and the relevant authorities had more budget to enforce them.
posted on 25/3/20
Australia is really facking this up.
On the one hand, we must go to work (in my case we've got 100+ blokes on a not partucularly big job site which is next to an old peoples home). Schools will not be closed. In the case of those working, no there is not a choice to or not to unless you're talking about putting your job and finances into jeopardy at the most risky time to do so in decades
On the other hand, everyone stay 2m apart, national parks will be closed etc etc
Makes no sense surely???
posted on 25/3/20
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 25/3/20
Fair play working on the front line, UWW
posted on 25/3/20
comment by United we win (U19958)
posted 6 minutes ago
Hospitals are doing the best they can as where I work, ppe is running out and as a radiographer taking x rays in small confined space and in rooms with positive and suspected cases, it is a big risk and right now it’s endless mobile x rays.
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#OleOut
posted on 25/3/20
comment by Ji Sung Park's Cousin - Ole's joy Manticore (U2958)
posted 3 minutes ago
Fair play working on the front line, UWW
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I hope Ole does not need treatment where he works
posted on 25/3/20
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
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