comment by lexballielegend (U22335)
posted 1 minute ago
2 old firm games in the league each season and sort out the away allocation and you have 2 games that really are something to look forward to.
Wont happen unless we are happy to stand up to TV and tell them its that or nothing...so wont happen.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sort out the away allocation?
I can honestly see Rangers demanding we get no tickets for Ibrox after this.
comment by Gingernuts (U2992)
posted 11 seconds ago
comment by Why the pallaver (U10168)
posted 18 seconds ago
comment by Gingernuts (U2992)
posted 3 minutes ago
Have to be honest and say the current set up has worked in terms of the split, the last 5 games and the play offs.
Playing Rangers, Hibs, Aberdeen, Killie, Motherwell 4 times a season is turgid though, never mind Hamilton, Hearts etc 3 times with an imbalance of home and away; and that's before you get to the cups.
I'd happily have a 16 team top league, play each other home and away and decrease the number of games to 30, giving more time for internationals and helping clubs in Europe.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Would be my choice too. Of course fewer games would mean the teams increasing prices, to keep the same income, so it`s a hard one to balance.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It would be the difference of 3 home games I agree but it would also swell the coffers of the new teams coming up who would benefit from a home game against the bigger clubs.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes. I`d also hope that having less fear about going down, that they could do more with the youth systems and properly give young players a chance.
id rather play rangers four times than play them twice and then play dundee and hamilton instead.
obvs u dont ginger cause ur bear in disguise and are sick of watching us pumpin u
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
comment by JFK - The Rebel Treble (U8919)
posted 11 seconds ago
id rather play rangers four times than play them twice and then play dundee and hamilton instead.
obvs u dont ginger cause ur bear in disguise and are sick of watching us pumpin u
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hahahaha
Now fwck off
comment by lexballielegend (U22335)
posted 19 seconds ago
Sort out the away allocation?
I can honestly see Rangers demanding we get no tickets for Ibrox after this.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why what the fook did we dohonestly what part did Celtic play in all this apart from voting YES which we were always going to do and are part of the huge majority who did.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Come on lex
You know fine well that this is all part of Peter's doing.
Where have you been this last month?
must be solid trying to appease celtic and rangers fans man
"40 million in the bank, we are secure as a club"
"bit wit aboot resolution 12?
"we have won the last 10 trophies in a row..."
"resolution 12 but"
"and are looking likely to secure 9 in a row for the second time in the clubs history"
"RESSALOOOOTION TWELVVVVE!!!!"
comment by MaHeed'sNippin aka I’m the competent Wullie Collum (U3633)
posted 11 minutes ago
comment by super phoenix rangers - I drank a lava lamp (U14864)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by JFK - The Rebel Treble (U8919)
posted 2 minutes ago
need the 4 old firm games.
its a must.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Shame the opportunity wasn't taken when rangers were in 3rd division.
A genuine reason given by some clubs was that expanding the league would help rangers so were not interested.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
But yeez wid have missed out on your romantic journey, bawz in the hedge and all 😂
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Be careful with yet bawz in a hedge they can get scratched
"we have cut Celtics demand to 800 tickets"
"cut it tae nothin"
"but then we get no tickets for their ground, isn't this a bit silly"
"cut it"
"look we need fans there"
"cut it, in fact naw, make them gie us the full stadium!"
"that's impossible"
"uh naw, we are the people remember, dae it or we are gawn tae England!"
"England don't want us"
"Huv they no heard us sing god save ra queen, course they dae!"
"look they aren't interes"
"GOD SAVE RA QUEEEEEEN!"
comment by JFK - The Rebel Treble (U8919)
posted 1 minute ago
must be solid trying to appease celtic and rangers fans man
"40 million in the bank, we are secure as a club"
"bit wit aboot resolution 12?
"we have won the last 10 trophies in a row..."
"resolution 12 but"
"and are looking likely to secure 9 in a row for the second time in the clubs history"
"RESSALOOOOTION TWELVVVVE!!!!"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't know what that is
comment by Gingernuts (U2992)
posted 14 minutes ago
comment by super phoenix rangers - I drank a lava lamp (U14864)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by JFK - The Rebel Treble (U8919)
posted 2 minutes ago
need the 4 old firm games.
its a must.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Shame the opportunity wasn't taken when rangers were in 3rd division.
A genuine reason given by some clubs was that expanding the league would help rangers so were not interested.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Expanding the league wouldn't have helped Rangers though as you had to reapply to join the league.
That means starting all over again at the lowest level.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Less leagues = less years
Goes back to 2011
sfa handing you a European licence despite knowing your financial plight.
argument is you shouldn't have got one, or something like that
The way i see it is Dundee were locked in talks with Hearts for 2 days and with Budge now being on this taskforce, there is clearly a viable way to make this work otherwise Dundee would have voted no and Budge would have told them, we'll see you in court.
i think we'll get it in place for next season, not sure how that affect Thistle and Stranraer though, do they stay up as 2 teams from each league moves up a league?
comment by JFK - The Rebel Treble (U8919)
posted 1 second ago
Goes back to 2011
sfa handing you a European licence despite knowing your financial plight.
argument is you shouldn't have got one, or something like that
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well complain to the SFA then, not like there's much rangers can do about it. We had bigger things to deal with after that.
comment by Gingernuts (U2992)
posted 21 minutes ago
Have to be honest and say the current set up has worked in terms of the split, the last 5 games and the play offs.
Playing Rangers, Hibs, Aberdeen, Killie, Motherwell 4 times a season is turgid though, never mind Hamilton, Hearts etc 3 times with an imbalance of home and away; and that's before you get to the cups.
I'd happily have a 16 team top league, play each other home and away and decrease the number of games to 30, giving more time for internationals and helping clubs in Europe.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Its fooking brutal.
Plus the less time spent on sheidty plastic pitches the better.
comment by NNH (U10730)
posted 1 minute ago
The way i see it is Dundee were locked in talks with Hearts for 2 days and with Budge now being on this taskforce, there is clearly a viable way to make this work otherwise Dundee would have voted no and Budge would have told them, we'll see you in court.
i think we'll get it in place for next season, not sure how that affect Thistle and Stranraer though, do they stay up as 2 teams from each league moves up a league?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I would assume that's why they are inviting 2 extra teams so that they can scrap relegation but still keep promotion
comment by super phoenix rangers - I drank a lava lamp (U14864)
posted 22 minutes ago
comment by JFK - The Rebel Treble (U8919)
posted 2 minutes ago
need the 4 old firm games.
its a must.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Shame the opportunity wasn't taken when rangers were in 3rd division.
A genuine reason given by some clubs was that expanding the league would help rangers so were not interested.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You would still have been in the 3rd division.
comment by New Magnum. The Mild Drover (U16400)
posted 0 seconds ago
comment by super phoenix rangers - I drank a lava lamp (U14864)
posted 22 minutes ago
comment by JFK - The Rebel Treble (U8919)
posted 2 minutes ago
need the 4 old firm games.
its a must.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Shame the opportunity wasn't taken when rangers were in 3rd division.
A genuine reason given by some clubs was that expanding the league would help rangers so were not interested.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You would still have been in the 3rd division.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We were in the 3rd division, I just said that. What planet you on?
comment by super phoenix rangers - I drank a lava lamp (U14864)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Gingernuts (U2992)
posted 14 minutes ago
comment by super phoenix rangers - I drank a lava lamp (U14864)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by JFK - The Rebel Treble (U8919)
posted 2 minutes ago
need the 4 old firm games.
its a must.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Shame the opportunity wasn't taken when rangers were in 3rd division.
A genuine reason given by some clubs was that expanding the league would help rangers so were not interested.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Expanding the league wouldn't have helped Rangers though as you had to reapply to join the league.
That means starting all over again at the lowest level.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Less leagues = less years
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe
Could have actually made it one less yourselves mind if you hadn't let Motherwell steamroller you
comment by Gingernuts (U2992)
posted 13 seconds ago
comment by super phoenix rangers - I drank a lava lamp (U14864)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Gingernuts (U2992)
posted 14 minutes ago
comment by super phoenix rangers - I drank a lava lamp (U14864)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by JFK - The Rebel Treble (U8919)
posted 2 minutes ago
need the 4 old firm games.
its a must.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Shame the opportunity wasn't taken when rangers were in 3rd division.
A genuine reason given by some clubs was that expanding the league would help rangers so were not interested.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Expanding the league wouldn't have helped Rangers though as you had to reapply to join the league.
That means starting all over again at the lowest level.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Less leagues = less years
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe
Could have actually made it one less yourselves mind if you hadn't let Motherwell steamroller you
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Indeed, that was a bad one. Championship play offs are brutal.
The fact moshni pinching that annoying Erwin guy says a lot
Moshni - forgot about him - was he retired to stud or the glue factory
comment by NNH (U10730)
posted 3 minutes ago
The way i see it is Dundee were locked in talks with Hearts for 2 days and with Budge now being on this taskforce, there is clearly a viable way to make this work otherwise Dundee would have voted no and Budge would have told them, we'll see you in court.
i think we'll get it in place for next season, not sure how that affect Thistle and Stranraer though, do they stay up as 2 teams from each league moves up a league?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not sure how that would affect the TV deal the SPFL has signed though. Wouldn`t surprise me if 4 Celtic v Rangers games were guaranteed as part of that.
comment by super phoenix rangers - I drank a lava lamp (U14864)
posted 10 seconds ago
comment by Gingernuts (U2992)
posted 13 seconds ago
comment by super phoenix rangers - I drank a lava lamp (U14864)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Gingernuts (U2992)
posted 14 minutes ago
comment by super phoenix rangers - I drank a lava lamp (U14864)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by JFK - The Rebel Treble (U8919)
posted 2 minutes ago
need the 4 old firm games.
its a must.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Shame the opportunity wasn't taken when rangers were in 3rd division.
A genuine reason given by some clubs was that expanding the league would help rangers so were not interested.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Expanding the league wouldn't have helped Rangers though as you had to reapply to join the league.
That means starting all over again at the lowest level.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Less leagues = less years
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe
Could have actually made it one less yourselves mind if you hadn't let Motherwell steamroller you
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Indeed, that was a bad one. Championship play offs are brutal.
The fact moshni pinching that annoying Erwin guy says a lot
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That was the best bit of all of it
Watched both legs and there's no doubt Motherwell deserved the wins but have to be honest and say when that kid pushed him in the back i though "This ain't going to go well" just as he turned and battered into him
Sat there with my mouth hanging open before dissolving into laughter
It was brilliant
That's one of the best moonhowling I have heard lately. There was no league reconstruction as it would have helped Rangers.
FFS man stop going on they FF sites and listening to Rangers fans on Twitter. Next thing you know you'll be telling us Beyonce told Dundee to change their vote
Sign in if you want to comment
A change of Hearts?
Page 2 of 8
6 | 7 | 8
posted on 16/4/20
comment by lexballielegend (U22335)
posted 1 minute ago
2 old firm games in the league each season and sort out the away allocation and you have 2 games that really are something to look forward to.
Wont happen unless we are happy to stand up to TV and tell them its that or nothing...so wont happen.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sort out the away allocation?
I can honestly see Rangers demanding we get no tickets for Ibrox after this.
posted on 16/4/20
comment by Gingernuts (U2992)
posted 11 seconds ago
comment by Why the pallaver (U10168)
posted 18 seconds ago
comment by Gingernuts (U2992)
posted 3 minutes ago
Have to be honest and say the current set up has worked in terms of the split, the last 5 games and the play offs.
Playing Rangers, Hibs, Aberdeen, Killie, Motherwell 4 times a season is turgid though, never mind Hamilton, Hearts etc 3 times with an imbalance of home and away; and that's before you get to the cups.
I'd happily have a 16 team top league, play each other home and away and decrease the number of games to 30, giving more time for internationals and helping clubs in Europe.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Would be my choice too. Of course fewer games would mean the teams increasing prices, to keep the same income, so it`s a hard one to balance.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It would be the difference of 3 home games I agree but it would also swell the coffers of the new teams coming up who would benefit from a home game against the bigger clubs.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes. I`d also hope that having less fear about going down, that they could do more with the youth systems and properly give young players a chance.
posted on 16/4/20
posted on 16/4/20
id rather play rangers four times than play them twice and then play dundee and hamilton instead.
obvs u dont ginger cause ur bear in disguise and are sick of watching us pumpin u
posted on 16/4/20
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 16/4/20
comment by JFK - The Rebel Treble (U8919)
posted 11 seconds ago
id rather play rangers four times than play them twice and then play dundee and hamilton instead.
obvs u dont ginger cause ur bear in disguise and are sick of watching us pumpin u
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hahahaha
Now fwck off
posted on 16/4/20
comment by lexballielegend (U22335)
posted 19 seconds ago
Sort out the away allocation?
I can honestly see Rangers demanding we get no tickets for Ibrox after this.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why what the fook did we dohonestly what part did Celtic play in all this apart from voting YES which we were always going to do and are part of the huge majority who did.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Come on lex
You know fine well that this is all part of Peter's doing.
Where have you been this last month?
posted on 16/4/20
must be solid trying to appease celtic and rangers fans man
"40 million in the bank, we are secure as a club"
"bit wit aboot resolution 12?
"we have won the last 10 trophies in a row..."
"resolution 12 but"
"and are looking likely to secure 9 in a row for the second time in the clubs history"
"RESSALOOOOTION TWELVVVVE!!!!"
posted on 16/4/20
comment by MaHeed'sNippin aka I’m the competent Wullie Collum (U3633)
posted 11 minutes ago
comment by super phoenix rangers - I drank a lava lamp (U14864)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by JFK - The Rebel Treble (U8919)
posted 2 minutes ago
need the 4 old firm games.
its a must.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Shame the opportunity wasn't taken when rangers were in 3rd division.
A genuine reason given by some clubs was that expanding the league would help rangers so were not interested.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
But yeez wid have missed out on your romantic journey, bawz in the hedge and all 😂
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Be careful with yet bawz in a hedge they can get scratched
posted on 16/4/20
"we have cut Celtics demand to 800 tickets"
"cut it tae nothin"
"but then we get no tickets for their ground, isn't this a bit silly"
"cut it"
"look we need fans there"
"cut it, in fact naw, make them gie us the full stadium!"
"that's impossible"
"uh naw, we are the people remember, dae it or we are gawn tae England!"
"England don't want us"
"Huv they no heard us sing god save ra queen, course they dae!"
"look they aren't interes"
"GOD SAVE RA QUEEEEEEN!"
posted on 16/4/20
comment by JFK - The Rebel Treble (U8919)
posted 1 minute ago
must be solid trying to appease celtic and rangers fans man
"40 million in the bank, we are secure as a club"
"bit wit aboot resolution 12?
"we have won the last 10 trophies in a row..."
"resolution 12 but"
"and are looking likely to secure 9 in a row for the second time in the clubs history"
"RESSALOOOOTION TWELVVVVE!!!!"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't know what that is
posted on 16/4/20
comment by Gingernuts (U2992)
posted 14 minutes ago
comment by super phoenix rangers - I drank a lava lamp (U14864)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by JFK - The Rebel Treble (U8919)
posted 2 minutes ago
need the 4 old firm games.
its a must.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Shame the opportunity wasn't taken when rangers were in 3rd division.
A genuine reason given by some clubs was that expanding the league would help rangers so were not interested.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Expanding the league wouldn't have helped Rangers though as you had to reapply to join the league.
That means starting all over again at the lowest level.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Less leagues = less years
posted on 16/4/20
Goes back to 2011
sfa handing you a European licence despite knowing your financial plight.
argument is you shouldn't have got one, or something like that
posted on 16/4/20
The way i see it is Dundee were locked in talks with Hearts for 2 days and with Budge now being on this taskforce, there is clearly a viable way to make this work otherwise Dundee would have voted no and Budge would have told them, we'll see you in court.
i think we'll get it in place for next season, not sure how that affect Thistle and Stranraer though, do they stay up as 2 teams from each league moves up a league?
posted on 16/4/20
comment by JFK - The Rebel Treble (U8919)
posted 1 second ago
Goes back to 2011
sfa handing you a European licence despite knowing your financial plight.
argument is you shouldn't have got one, or something like that
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well complain to the SFA then, not like there's much rangers can do about it. We had bigger things to deal with after that.
posted on 16/4/20
comment by Gingernuts (U2992)
posted 21 minutes ago
Have to be honest and say the current set up has worked in terms of the split, the last 5 games and the play offs.
Playing Rangers, Hibs, Aberdeen, Killie, Motherwell 4 times a season is turgid though, never mind Hamilton, Hearts etc 3 times with an imbalance of home and away; and that's before you get to the cups.
I'd happily have a 16 team top league, play each other home and away and decrease the number of games to 30, giving more time for internationals and helping clubs in Europe.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Its fooking brutal.
Plus the less time spent on sheidty plastic pitches the better.
posted on 16/4/20
comment by NNH (U10730)
posted 1 minute ago
The way i see it is Dundee were locked in talks with Hearts for 2 days and with Budge now being on this taskforce, there is clearly a viable way to make this work otherwise Dundee would have voted no and Budge would have told them, we'll see you in court.
i think we'll get it in place for next season, not sure how that affect Thistle and Stranraer though, do they stay up as 2 teams from each league moves up a league?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I would assume that's why they are inviting 2 extra teams so that they can scrap relegation but still keep promotion
posted on 16/4/20
comment by super phoenix rangers - I drank a lava lamp (U14864)
posted 22 minutes ago
comment by JFK - The Rebel Treble (U8919)
posted 2 minutes ago
need the 4 old firm games.
its a must.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Shame the opportunity wasn't taken when rangers were in 3rd division.
A genuine reason given by some clubs was that expanding the league would help rangers so were not interested.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You would still have been in the 3rd division.
posted on 16/4/20
comment by New Magnum. The Mild Drover (U16400)
posted 0 seconds ago
comment by super phoenix rangers - I drank a lava lamp (U14864)
posted 22 minutes ago
comment by JFK - The Rebel Treble (U8919)
posted 2 minutes ago
need the 4 old firm games.
its a must.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Shame the opportunity wasn't taken when rangers were in 3rd division.
A genuine reason given by some clubs was that expanding the league would help rangers so were not interested.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You would still have been in the 3rd division.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We were in the 3rd division, I just said that. What planet you on?
posted on 16/4/20
comment by super phoenix rangers - I drank a lava lamp (U14864)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Gingernuts (U2992)
posted 14 minutes ago
comment by super phoenix rangers - I drank a lava lamp (U14864)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by JFK - The Rebel Treble (U8919)
posted 2 minutes ago
need the 4 old firm games.
its a must.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Shame the opportunity wasn't taken when rangers were in 3rd division.
A genuine reason given by some clubs was that expanding the league would help rangers so were not interested.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Expanding the league wouldn't have helped Rangers though as you had to reapply to join the league.
That means starting all over again at the lowest level.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Less leagues = less years
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe
Could have actually made it one less yourselves mind if you hadn't let Motherwell steamroller you
posted on 16/4/20
comment by Gingernuts (U2992)
posted 13 seconds ago
comment by super phoenix rangers - I drank a lava lamp (U14864)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Gingernuts (U2992)
posted 14 minutes ago
comment by super phoenix rangers - I drank a lava lamp (U14864)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by JFK - The Rebel Treble (U8919)
posted 2 minutes ago
need the 4 old firm games.
its a must.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Shame the opportunity wasn't taken when rangers were in 3rd division.
A genuine reason given by some clubs was that expanding the league would help rangers so were not interested.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Expanding the league wouldn't have helped Rangers though as you had to reapply to join the league.
That means starting all over again at the lowest level.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Less leagues = less years
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe
Could have actually made it one less yourselves mind if you hadn't let Motherwell steamroller you
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Indeed, that was a bad one. Championship play offs are brutal.
The fact moshni pinching that annoying Erwin guy says a lot
posted on 16/4/20
Moshni - forgot about him - was he retired to stud or the glue factory
posted on 16/4/20
comment by NNH (U10730)
posted 3 minutes ago
The way i see it is Dundee were locked in talks with Hearts for 2 days and with Budge now being on this taskforce, there is clearly a viable way to make this work otherwise Dundee would have voted no and Budge would have told them, we'll see you in court.
i think we'll get it in place for next season, not sure how that affect Thistle and Stranraer though, do they stay up as 2 teams from each league moves up a league?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not sure how that would affect the TV deal the SPFL has signed though. Wouldn`t surprise me if 4 Celtic v Rangers games were guaranteed as part of that.
posted on 16/4/20
comment by super phoenix rangers - I drank a lava lamp (U14864)
posted 10 seconds ago
comment by Gingernuts (U2992)
posted 13 seconds ago
comment by super phoenix rangers - I drank a lava lamp (U14864)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Gingernuts (U2992)
posted 14 minutes ago
comment by super phoenix rangers - I drank a lava lamp (U14864)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by JFK - The Rebel Treble (U8919)
posted 2 minutes ago
need the 4 old firm games.
its a must.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Shame the opportunity wasn't taken when rangers were in 3rd division.
A genuine reason given by some clubs was that expanding the league would help rangers so were not interested.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Expanding the league wouldn't have helped Rangers though as you had to reapply to join the league.
That means starting all over again at the lowest level.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Less leagues = less years
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe
Could have actually made it one less yourselves mind if you hadn't let Motherwell steamroller you
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Indeed, that was a bad one. Championship play offs are brutal.
The fact moshni pinching that annoying Erwin guy says a lot
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That was the best bit of all of it
Watched both legs and there's no doubt Motherwell deserved the wins but have to be honest and say when that kid pushed him in the back i though "This ain't going to go well" just as he turned and battered into him
Sat there with my mouth hanging open before dissolving into laughter
It was brilliant
posted on 16/4/20
That's one of the best moonhowling I have heard lately. There was no league reconstruction as it would have helped Rangers.
FFS man stop going on they FF sites and listening to Rangers fans on Twitter. Next thing you know you'll be telling us Beyonce told Dundee to change their vote
Page 2 of 8
6 | 7 | 8