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Henderson >>> Pogba

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posted on 18/5/20

What it does is kind of limited, though I do think it’s better than good. There are numerous players around that could come in and perform the roles Liverpool’s midfielders do, in some cases improving it.

Their wingers and full backs, however, are a completely different matter. Which is why Liverpool’s midfield is set up so they can thrive - as they’re legitimately brilliant players.

posted on 18/5/20

*better than ok

posted on 18/5/20

comment by Wahl Icht - (U22332)
posted 29 minutes ago
Pogba is borderline world class. Would be world class if he was more consistent. Adama Traore isn't that good even on a one off basis, so I don't agree with that.

The point is that regardless of people's opinions on work ethics, you're comparing two different levels of player when you're comparing Pogba to Hendo. It's a bit like comparing Antonio Valencia at his best to Eden Hazard. Valencia was good and worked hard, but he was never on peak Hazard's level really.
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I'd say Traore is very difficult to stop on his day, people have said that for a good couple of seasons now but his end product was never great whereas this year it has been better which is why he is being recognised.

Pogba shows glimpses of world class quality. He has the potential to be a world class player and maybe somewhere like a Real Madrid for example, he could develop into that world class player. That's regardless of whether he works hard or not, but he doesn't do enough on a consistent basis to be considered world class. If you're going off technical ability, he's a better player than Henderson, but football isn't about who has the most technical players ala Barcelona's defeat to Liverpool in the CL last season or Man City being well behind Liverpool this season in the title race.

posted on 18/5/20

comment by JustYourAverageFan (U21016)
posted 10 seconds ago
comment by Wahl Icht - (U22332)
posted 29 minutes ago
Pogba is borderline world class. Would be world class if he was more consistent. Adama Traore isn't that good even on a one off basis, so I don't agree with that.

The point is that regardless of people's opinions on work ethics, you're comparing two different levels of player when you're comparing Pogba to Hendo. It's a bit like comparing Antonio Valencia at his best to Eden Hazard. Valencia was good and worked hard, but he was never on peak Hazard's level really.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd say Traore is very difficult to stop on his day, people have said that for a good couple of seasons now but his end product was never great whereas this year it has been better which is why he is being recognised.

Pogba shows glimpses of world class quality. He has the potential to be a world class player and maybe somewhere like a Real Madrid for example, he could develop into that world class player. That's regardless of whether he works hard or not, but he doesn't do enough on a consistent basis to be considered world class. If you're going off technical ability, he's a better player than Henderson, but football isn't about who has the most technical players ala Barcelona's defeat to Liverpool in the CL last season or Man City being well behind Liverpool this season in the title race.
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I agree with all of this but I don't see what any of it has to do with the Pogba vs Henderson 'debate'. These achievements you're talking about are what the Liverpool team achieved, not Henderson who plays his part in that team, but it's not a huge part compared to other players in that team.

If you take both players out of their teams and place Pogba alongside Henderson, is there an argument to be had? Looking at the two individually, it's clear who's better right?

posted on 18/5/20

comment by Wahl Icht - (U22332)
posted 39 seconds ago
comment by JustYourAverageFan (U21016)
posted 10 seconds ago
comment by Wahl Icht - (U22332)
posted 29 minutes ago
Pogba is borderline world class. Would be world class if he was more consistent. Adama Traore isn't that good even on a one off basis, so I don't agree with that.

The point is that regardless of people's opinions on work ethics, you're comparing two different levels of player when you're comparing Pogba to Hendo. It's a bit like comparing Antonio Valencia at his best to Eden Hazard. Valencia was good and worked hard, but he was never on peak Hazard's level really.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd say Traore is very difficult to stop on his day, people have said that for a good couple of seasons now but his end product was never great whereas this year it has been better which is why he is being recognised.

Pogba shows glimpses of world class quality. He has the potential to be a world class player and maybe somewhere like a Real Madrid for example, he could develop into that world class player. That's regardless of whether he works hard or not, but he doesn't do enough on a consistent basis to be considered world class. If you're going off technical ability, he's a better player than Henderson, but football isn't about who has the most technical players ala Barcelona's defeat to Liverpool in the CL last season or Man City being well behind Liverpool this season in the title race.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree with all of this but I don't see what any of it has to do with the Pogba vs Henderson 'debate'. These achievements you're talking about are what the Liverpool team achieved, not Henderson who plays his part in that team, but it's not a huge part compared to other players in that team.

If you take both players out of their teams and place Pogba alongside Henderson, is there an argument to be had? Looking at the two individually, it's clear who's better right?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I meant in principle. Barcelona and Man City both have better technical players than Liverpool in general, but have both fallen short to them recently. That's the same principle as what I'm saying about Pogba and Henderson, Pogba is better technically, but I'd still take what Henderson does because he does what he does better and to a higher standard and on a more consistent basis.

I'd personally say Henderson does his job in midfield better than what Pogba does his. So by convention, I'd actually say Henderson is better. But it depends what you want from your midfield.

posted on 18/5/20

comment by Elvis: King of Cult (U7425)
posted 57 minutes ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 32 minutes ago
comment by Elvis: King of Cult (U7425)
posted 37 minutes ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 2 hours, 22 minutes ago
comment by CurrentlyIntheUK (U11181)
posted 3 minutes ago
Pogba is more talented player no doubt. The way Liverpool play, Henderson suits them. Klopp would have to play a different system if he had Pogba instead of Henderson.

So Henderson is perfect for the system Liverpool play currently and Pogba would not be. Take out Pogba and put in Henderson into the side at United and the United midfield regresses.
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Disagree. United's midfield would be better with Henderson in it, than Pogba. You can't get away with strolling around in England and just turning it on if the ball happens to come to you.
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Nah. We have Fred and McT. What we have missed is creativity and Pogba offers more of that thab Hendo.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah but Henderson is better than both Fred and McTominay and Fernandes offers the creativity.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't really think he is any better. You just have a well organised team. Slot either McT or Fred into your team instead of Hendo and I don't think anyhring changes. Obviously they'd need some time to learn the system.
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We'll have to agree to disagree there. Although I rate Mctominay, he still has some way to go to reach Henderson levels.

posted on 18/5/20

comment by JustYourAverageFan (U21016)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Wahl Icht - (U22332)
posted 39 seconds ago
comment by JustYourAverageFan (U21016)
posted 10 seconds ago
comment by Wahl Icht - (U22332)
posted 29 minutes ago
Pogba is borderline world class. Would be world class if he was more consistent. Adama Traore isn't that good even on a one off basis, so I don't agree with that.

The point is that regardless of people's opinions on work ethics, you're comparing two different levels of player when you're comparing Pogba to Hendo. It's a bit like comparing Antonio Valencia at his best to Eden Hazard. Valencia was good and worked hard, but he was never on peak Hazard's level really.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd say Traore is very difficult to stop on his day, people have said that for a good couple of seasons now but his end product was never great whereas this year it has been better which is why he is being recognised.

Pogba shows glimpses of world class quality. He has the potential to be a world class player and maybe somewhere like a Real Madrid for example, he could develop into that world class player. That's regardless of whether he works hard or not, but he doesn't do enough on a consistent basis to be considered world class. If you're going off technical ability, he's a better player than Henderson, but football isn't about who has the most technical players ala Barcelona's defeat to Liverpool in the CL last season or Man City being well behind Liverpool this season in the title race.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree with all of this but I don't see what any of it has to do with the Pogba vs Henderson 'debate'. These achievements you're talking about are what the Liverpool team achieved, not Henderson who plays his part in that team, but it's not a huge part compared to other players in that team.

If you take both players out of their teams and place Pogba alongside Henderson, is there an argument to be had? Looking at the two individually, it's clear who's better right?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I meant in principle. Barcelona and Man City both have better technical players than Liverpool in general, but have both fallen short to them recently. That's the same principle as what I'm saying about Pogba and Henderson, Pogba is better technically, but I'd still take what Henderson does because he does what he does better and to a higher standard and on a more consistent basis.

I'd personally say Henderson does his job in midfield better than what Pogba does his. So by convention, I'd actually say Henderson is better. But it depends what you want from your midfield.
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Or you could say he’s part of a very good team so it looks like he’s playing better than he actually is whereas Pogba has been part of a disjointed underperforming team who recently changed manager, and despite not being as good as he can be, has still posted stats that equal or better most midfielders in the PL

posted on 18/5/20

OK, well if that's your opinion I have to respect that. They play different roles, and Henderson is consistent at a much lower level than Pogba operates at, but Henderson is so limited compared to Pogba for me.

posted on 18/5/20

comment by Wahl Icht - (U22332)
posted 1 minute ago
OK, well if that's your opinion I have to respect that. They play different roles, and Henderson is consistent at a much lower level than Pogba operates at, but Henderson is so limited compared to Pogba for me.
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Limited at what? Attacking? Yes, as that's not his role. He's not limited in anything that has required to do, in fact he's really quite good at it. Breaking up attacks, energy, passing, tackling, heading, pressing. In fact you could say Pogba is limited, he's good at the odd through ball, even though he loses the ball a lot, this is to be expected when you're trying the more difficult pass and he's good at scoring the odd goal. He's poor at breaking up attacks, poor at tracking back, poor at pressing, poor at teamwork and working for his teammates.

posted on 18/5/20

Breaking up attacks, energy, passing, tackling, heading, pressing.
===================
All very basic skills that don't require any special talent or ability to be able to do effectively, at least when we're talking about Premier League level footballers. I'm sure if you asked Pogba to forget about being creative and scoring goals and to just do what Henderson does, he is more than capable of doing it, it would just be a waste of his talents, talents which Henderson does not possess and the reason why Henderson is asked to play the role he does.

Henderson plays a basic role very well. Pogba plays a much more difficult role very well sometimes, not so well other times.

posted on 18/5/20

"I'm sure if you asked Pogba to forget about being creative and scoring goals and to just do what Henderson does, he is more than capable of doing it"

posted on 18/5/20

It's absolutely true. Henderson is a limited player asked to play a limited role in his team. It's not a role that's beyond a player with much more ability than Henderson has to perform that same role, he just wouldn't be asked to play that role because he can do so much more with his abilities.

posted on 18/5/20

Going back to what I say, you don't need to be the most technically gifted player in the world to be better than somebody else. Ever heard of the saying less is more? Why would you ask Henderson to perform a role that he isn't going to do when he can just do less but be more effective?

What you've basically said about Pogba compared to Henderson is like saying if you asked Aguero to do what the likes of Mandzukic do, hold the ball up, flick balls on and be a target man, he could do it better because he has better technical ability when that's not true at all.

It might not be Pogba's fault if a manager isn't playing to his strengths, but if that is the case with Ole now for example, then that completely disproves your argument about Pogba being able to play in any other roles effectively because sometimes he is useless on a field. Doesn't that make him a limited player if he can only play a certain role well?

posted on 18/5/20

Aguero couldn't play that role because Physically he isn't suited to that role. That doesn't apply to Pogba being asked to play like Henderson.

And my point is, it's easier to carry out a relatively simpler role effectively and consistently than it is to have much more responsibility to be the creative hub for your team and consistently be your team's match-winner, which is the role United give to Pogba. So saying Henderson is more consistent at what he does may be true, but the fact is that what he does is much more simpler than what Pogba is asked to do for United, so that counteracts that argument.

I'm not sure about your last paragraph. Pogba has a role in the United team but doesn't perform consistently in that role. That doesn't mean he wouldn't be unable to perform consistently if he was asked to play a much simpler role like the one Henderson plays for Liverpool.

posted on 18/5/20

Again, talking in principle. But correct, Aguero couldn't play that role because his attributes are not suited to that role. Exactly what I'm saying about Pogba, he just doesn't seem to have the attributes to play the role Henderson does and I certainly wouldn't say he could play it as effectively.

That might be true that he has more of a role to play, but if he can't do it consistently, like you've just said, how can he be world class? Lewandowski has the task of being the main man for Bayern in terms of scoring goals and he is world class because he can do it consistently, season after season. Messi has the task of being Barca's talisman season after season and he does it, season after season. Ronaldo is expected to be the main man at whichever club he jumps to and, more often than not, he is. I know you can say they are playing in better teams with better quality around these players, but I don't agree with that argument at all. Aubameyang still manages to be at the top of the scoring charts season after season, whether he's in a talented attacking side like Dortmund's or a painfully average side like Arsenal's. So what's Pogba's excuse?

posted on 18/5/20

Pogba isn't as good as Messi, or Ronaldo, or Lewandowski or Aubameyang. That's why I said he's borderline World class whereas those guys are all comfortably world class.

Why do you think Pogba can't play the Henderson role?

posted on 18/5/20

Not read all of this but I can’t believe anyone would seriously suggest Fred. Back in autumn, maybe, but he’s been a solid performer since then and that’s all we really expected of him. It’s not like he came with a massive reputation and was tipped to storm the league.

And it’s not club bias that makes me say this - I wouldn’t argue with anyone who voted Pogba.

posted on 18/5/20

comment by Clockwork Red (U4892)
posted 1 second ago
Not read all of this but I can’t believe anyone would seriously suggest Fred. Back in autumn, maybe, but he’s been a solid performer since then and that’s all we really expected of him. It’s not like he came with a massive reputation and was tipped to storm the league.

And it’s not club bias that makes me say this - I wouldn’t argue with anyone who voted Pogba.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

^ As the biggest flop, that is.

posted on 18/5/20

comment by Wahl Icht - (U22332)
posted 52 minutes ago
Pogba isn't as good as Messi, or Ronaldo, or Lewandowski or Aubameyang. That's why I said he's borderline World class whereas those guys are all comfortably world class.

Why do you think Pogba can't play the Henderson role?
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Again, missing the point because I'm saying it in principle. I'm not saying he's as good as them, he's nowhere near as good but what I am saying is these players manage to still be effective no matter how well their current club is doing.

If he was even borderline world class, you'd be able to see that in what he does for United, but he isn't.

Ill disciplined player with a sloppy attitude in my opinion. Two reasons why I don't personally think he can do Henderson's role.

posted on 18/5/20

comment by Wahl Icht - (U22332)
posted 2 hours, 37 minutes ago
Breaking up attacks, energy, passing, tackling, heading, pressing.
===================
All very basic skills that don't require any special talent or ability to be able to do effectively, at least when we're talking about Premier League level footballers. I'm sure if you asked Pogba to forget about being creative and scoring goals and to just do what Henderson does, he is more than capable of doing it, it would just be a waste of his talents, talents which Henderson does not possess and the reason why Henderson is asked to play the role he does.

Henderson plays a basic role very well. Pogba plays a much more difficult role very well sometimes, not so well other times.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And yet these "basics" Pogba can't, or more likely, won't, do.

posted on 18/5/20

comment by Wahl Icht - (U22332)
posted 2 hours, 20 minutes ago
It's absolutely true. Henderson is a limited player asked to play a limited role in his team. It's not a role that's beyond a player with much more ability than Henderson has to perform that same role, he just wouldn't be asked to play that role because he can do so much more with his abilities.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So basically midfielders who attack aren't limited but midfielders who do other jobs are. Quite a simplistic way at looking at things but to be expected.

posted on 18/5/20

comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 24 minutes ago
comment by Wahl Icht - (U22332)
posted 2 hours, 20 minutes ago
It's absolutely true. Henderson is a limited player asked to play a limited role in his team. It's not a role that's beyond a player with much more ability than Henderson has to perform that same role, he just wouldn't be asked to play that role because he can do so much more with his abilities.
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So basically midfielders who attack aren't limited but midfielders who do other jobs are. Quite a simplistic way at looking at things but to be expected.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No I'm saying Henderson is limited and Pogba isn't.

posted on 18/5/20

What the furrrk am I even doing right now. Why do I have to actually argue the reasoning behind why I think Pogba is better than Henderson. How is this not blatantly furrrking obvious

posted on 18/5/20

posted on 18/5/20

comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 3 hours, 25 minutes ago
comment by Elvis: King of Cult (U7425)
posted 57 minutes ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 32 minutes ago
comment by Elvis: King of Cult (U7425)
posted 37 minutes ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 2 hours, 22 minutes ago
comment by CurrentlyIntheUK (U11181)
posted 3 minutes ago
Pogba is more talented player no doubt. The way Liverpool play, Henderson suits them. Klopp would have to play a different system if he had Pogba instead of Henderson.

So Henderson is perfect for the system Liverpool play currently and Pogba would not be. Take out Pogba and put in Henderson into the side at United and the United midfield regresses.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Disagree. United's midfield would be better with Henderson in it, than Pogba. You can't get away with strolling around in England and just turning it on if the ball happens to come to you.
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Nah. We have Fred and McT. What we have missed is creativity and Pogba offers more of that thab Hendo.
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Yeah but Henderson is better than both Fred and McTominay and Fernandes offers the creativity.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't really think he is any better. You just have a well organised team. Slot either McT or Fred into your team instead of Hendo and I don't think anyhring changes. Obviously they'd need some time to learn the system.
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We'll have to agree to disagree there. Although I rate Mctominay, he still has some way to go to reach Henderson levels.
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It's not a dig at Hendo. He's a decent player, a great pro, playing for a very good manager in a setup that perfectly suits his attributes. But when you look at the team, he is one of the first players you'd be most confident of being able to replace if he were to leave. I think McT could go into that team now and replace Hendo without there being any noticeable difference. Fred too based on this season. He's been one of our top 3 performers this season

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