comment by Just Shoot (U10408)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by FieldsofAnfieldRd (U18971)
posted 27 minutes ago
comment by Just Shoot (U10408)
posted 1 hour, 45 minutes ago
comment by it'sonlyagame (U6426)
posted 1 hour, 26 minutes ago
More seriously though, have any of you read about the case of Elijah McClain?
I am the type of person who tries to see things from different perspectives rather than rush to conclusions. There is no baseless speculation in what comes below and no twisting of any known facts.
This young man's death might or might not have been as a direct result of the police intervention; it seems at least just as likely that it was partly induced by the ketamine overdose he was administered by the paramedics. But the description of the events and of the 23-year-old himself illustrate for me what an SHOCKINGLY OVER-POLICED system and societal racism are all about.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Elijah_McClain
So 'sketchy behaviour' is wearing ski goggles on 25th February in Denver, and walking down the street 'flailing your arms' while wearing EARPHONES?
The phone operator regards it as sketchy enough to dispatch a 3-man patrol? Maybe she is just following protocol.
Hopefully, however, as you read through, and even if you're old and white like me, you'll start to ask yourself what kind of fecking protocol establishes and endorses the measures taken in this case.
So, the patrol drives around and considers it is indeed sketchy enough to not just drive past and say "nothing to see here", but get out and approach the man?
Or, again, perhaps this is just following protocol. In which case... I hope you are getting this by now.
Regardless of conflicting accounts of how the scuffle broke out, all three officers' body cams fall off, despite audio recording one of the officers telling another to take it off?
- I doubt protocol includes taking body cameras off. But, if it does...
The man allegedly reached for one of the officer's guns, although in the audio recording the officer in question is heard saying he does not recall such a thing happening.
The man is held down, handcuffed with his arms behind his back and kept in a chokehold for 15 minutes. He repeatedly vomits, for which he apologises, saying: "I'm sorry, I wasn’t trying to do that, I can't breathe correctly"
Despite this, upon the arrival of a team of paramedics, he is considered to be in a state of "excited delirium" (*) and requires a shot of ketamine to calm him. See below.
He is then judged to weigh "around 200 pounds". He is actually 5ft 6in/167.5cm tall and weighs 140 lb. He is administered a dose of ketamine for someone almost twice his size, because ... protocol?
(*) Excited delirium is not recognized by professional medical associations. No reputable medical organization — not the American Medical Association nor the American Psychological Association — recognize excited delirium as a medical or mental-health condition. (Wikipedia)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This was definitely a tragedy that should not have happened. However, it was in August not February and wearing a ski mask and having flailing arms isn't normal behaviour. Not enough to warrant arrest, sure, but possibly worth investigating.
As for the dose of ketamine, I have no idea why that we administrated, but I'm not a medical professional. But surely that can't be on the police?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
https://youtu.be/1hNxC6VT20A
This is the same officer involved in that shooting.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He seems a bit of a d*ck, but there was no shooting.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well that’s an improvement. Can’t wait for the ‘well done for not shooting anyone this time’ commendation
Didn’t report getting his firearm out from its holster like he’s meant to. He’s still got an attitude in him as well.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
comment by Just Shoot (U10408)
posted 57 seconds ago
comment by FieldsofAnfieldRd (U18971)
posted 53 minutes ago
comment by Just Shoot (U10408)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by FieldsofAnfieldRd (U18971)
posted 27 minutes ago
comment by Just Shoot (U10408)
posted 1 hour, 45 minutes ago
comment by it'sonlyagame (U6426)
posted 1 hour, 26 minutes ago
More seriously though, have any of you read about the case of Elijah McClain?
I am the type of person who tries to see things from different perspectives rather than rush to conclusions. There is no baseless speculation in what comes below and no twisting of any known facts.
This young man's death might or might not have been as a direct result of the police intervention; it seems at least just as likely that it was partly induced by the ketamine overdose he was administered by the paramedics. But the description of the events and of the 23-year-old himself illustrate for me what an SHOCKINGLY OVER-POLICED system and societal racism are all about.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Elijah_McClain
So 'sketchy behaviour' is wearing ski goggles on 25th February in Denver, and walking down the street 'flailing your arms' while wearing EARPHONES?
The phone operator regards it as sketchy enough to dispatch a 3-man patrol? Maybe she is just following protocol.
Hopefully, however, as you read through, and even if you're old and white like me, you'll start to ask yourself what kind of fecking protocol establishes and endorses the measures taken in this case.
So, the patrol drives around and considers it is indeed sketchy enough to not just drive past and say "nothing to see here", but get out and approach the man?
Or, again, perhaps this is just following protocol. In which case... I hope you are getting this by now.
Regardless of conflicting accounts of how the scuffle broke out, all three officers' body cams fall off, despite audio recording one of the officers telling another to take it off?
- I doubt protocol includes taking body cameras off. But, if it does...
The man allegedly reached for one of the officer's guns, although in the audio recording the officer in question is heard saying he does not recall such a thing happening.
The man is held down, handcuffed with his arms behind his back and kept in a chokehold for 15 minutes. He repeatedly vomits, for which he apologises, saying: "I'm sorry, I wasn’t trying to do that, I can't breathe correctly"
Despite this, upon the arrival of a team of paramedics, he is considered to be in a state of "excited delirium" (*) and requires a shot of ketamine to calm him. See below.
He is then judged to weigh "around 200 pounds". He is actually 5ft 6in/167.5cm tall and weighs 140 lb. He is administered a dose of ketamine for someone almost twice his size, because ... protocol?
(*) Excited delirium is not recognized by professional medical associations. No reputable medical organization — not the American Medical Association nor the American Psychological Association — recognize excited delirium as a medical or mental-health condition. (Wikipedia)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This was definitely a tragedy that should not have happened. However, it was in August not February and wearing a ski mask and having flailing arms isn't normal behaviour. Not enough to warrant arrest, sure, but possibly worth investigating.
As for the dose of ketamine, I have no idea why that we administrated, but I'm not a medical professional. But surely that can't be on the police?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
https://youtu.be/1hNxC6VT20A
This is the same officer involved in that shooting.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He seems a bit of a d*ck, but there was no shooting.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well that’s an improvement. Can’t wait for the ‘well done for not shooting anyone this time’ commendation
Didn’t report getting his firearm out from its holster like he’s meant to. He’s still got an attitude in him as well.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Who did he shoot? It wasn't Elijah or that guy.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Doesn’t have to be true for Annie. He’s so anti police it makes you wonder what’s he’s been caught for in the past for him to be so blinded by this curious hate.
comment by Just Shoot (U10408)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by FieldsofAnfieldRd (U18971)
posted 53 minutes ago
comment by Just Shoot (U10408)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by FieldsofAnfieldRd (U18971)
posted 27 minutes ago
comment by Just Shoot (U10408)
posted 1 hour, 45 minutes ago
comment by it'sonlyagame (U6426)
posted 1 hour, 26 minutes ago
More seriously though, have any of you read about the case of Elijah McClain?
I am the type of person who tries to see things from different perspectives rather than rush to conclusions. There is no baseless speculation in what comes below and no twisting of any known facts.
This young man's death might or might not have been as a direct result of the police intervention; it seems at least just as likely that it was partly induced by the ketamine overdose he was administered by the paramedics. But the description of the events and of the 23-year-old himself illustrate for me what an SHOCKINGLY OVER-POLICED system and societal racism are all about.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Elijah_McClain
So 'sketchy behaviour' is wearing ski goggles on 25th February in Denver, and walking down the street 'flailing your arms' while wearing EARPHONES?
The phone operator regards it as sketchy enough to dispatch a 3-man patrol? Maybe she is just following protocol.
Hopefully, however, as you read through, and even if you're old and white like me, you'll start to ask yourself what kind of fecking protocol establishes and endorses the measures taken in this case.
So, the patrol drives around and considers it is indeed sketchy enough to not just drive past and say "nothing to see here", but get out and approach the man?
Or, again, perhaps this is just following protocol. In which case... I hope you are getting this by now.
Regardless of conflicting accounts of how the scuffle broke out, all three officers' body cams fall off, despite audio recording one of the officers telling another to take it off?
- I doubt protocol includes taking body cameras off. But, if it does...
The man allegedly reached for one of the officer's guns, although in the audio recording the officer in question is heard saying he does not recall such a thing happening.
The man is held down, handcuffed with his arms behind his back and kept in a chokehold for 15 minutes. He repeatedly vomits, for which he apologises, saying: "I'm sorry, I wasn’t trying to do that, I can't breathe correctly"
Despite this, upon the arrival of a team of paramedics, he is considered to be in a state of "excited delirium" (*) and requires a shot of ketamine to calm him. See below.
He is then judged to weigh "around 200 pounds". He is actually 5ft 6in/167.5cm tall and weighs 140 lb. He is administered a dose of ketamine for someone almost twice his size, because ... protocol?
(*) Excited delirium is not recognized by professional medical associations. No reputable medical organization — not the American Medical Association nor the American Psychological Association — recognize excited delirium as a medical or mental-health condition. (Wikipedia)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This was definitely a tragedy that should not have happened. However, it was in August not February and wearing a ski mask and having flailing arms isn't normal behaviour. Not enough to warrant arrest, sure, but possibly worth investigating.
As for the dose of ketamine, I have no idea why that we administrated, but I'm not a medical professional. But surely that can't be on the police?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
https://youtu.be/1hNxC6VT20A
This is the same officer involved in that shooting.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He seems a bit of a d*ck, but there was no shooting.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well that’s an improvement. Can’t wait for the ‘well done for not shooting anyone this time’ commendation
Didn’t report getting his firearm out from its holster like he’s meant to. He’s still got an attitude in him as well.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Who did he shoot? It wasn't Elijah or that guy.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry got the name of the incident wrong. Same officer was involved in the unlawful killing of Elijah.
Better?
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Term
“ Doesn’t have to be true for Annie. He’s so anti police it makes you wonder what’s he’s been caught for in the past for him to be so blinded by this curious hate.”
Anti coppers discriminating against and killing people yeah. What’s the problem with that?
Keep defending the indefensible. Typical Tory.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
comment by Just Shoot (U10408)
posted 22 seconds ago
Still, he is a d*ck, but it wasn't his fault Elijah was given ketamine.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It was his fault the body cam fell off? Or having the lad in a chokehold whilst in cuffs, whilst vomiting and saying he can’t breathe?
Who used this term ‘excited delirium’ leading paramedics to think he needed calming down?
How much calming down does someone who’s been in a chokehold for 15 minutes, has vomited and been unable to breathe?
More than a d*ck. But yeah let that guy a gun keep his gun & badge. What could possibly go wrong later down the line?
*But yeah let that guy keep his gun & badge. What could possibly go wrong later down the line?
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
comment by Just Shoot (U10408)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by FieldsofAnfieldRd (U18971)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Just Shoot (U10408)
posted 22 seconds ago
Still, he is a d*ck, but it wasn't his fault Elijah was given ketamine.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It was his fault the body cam fell off? Or having the lad in a chokehold whilst in cuffs, whilst vomiting and saying he can’t breathe?
Who used this term ‘excited delirium’ leading paramedics to think he needed calming down?
How much calming down does someone who’s been in a chokehold for 15 minutes, has vomited and been unable to breathe?
More than a d*ck. But yeah let that guy a gun keep his gun & badge. What could possibly go wrong later down the line?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That the paramedics call though.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The police were talking about him ‘obviously being on something’ to paramedics. Was there any proof of this?
I don’t doubt the paramedics acted incorrectly. Coming into the situation part of the way through it didn’t help they were misinformed by the police.
comment by Just Shoot (U10408)
posted 14 minutes ago
Some bodycam footage.
https://youtu.be/s78szANlt-c
Not passing judgement, just an observation, shouldn't people just comply with police requests??
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He did. They went in hard front he start on the lad. He didn’t have a clue what was going on. The 911 call operator even stated he wasn’t a danger or threat to anyone to the caller. Why go in on the lad like that?
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
comment by FieldsofAnfieldRd (U18971)
posted 1 hour, 47 minutes ago
Term
“ Doesn’t have to be true for Annie. He’s so anti police it makes you wonder what’s he’s been caught for in the past for him to be so blinded by this curious hate.”
Anti coppers discriminating against and killing people yeah. What’s the problem with that?
Keep defending the indefensible. Typical Tory.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Tory You’re basically assuming guilt of the police and assuming they’re lying, whilst going on about how innocent the civilians involved are. You’re stereotyping all police and attacking anyone who would rather just wait until all the facts are known, as opposed to you carrying out your own kangaroo court.
And I've never voted Tory. Just a 🔔 end of an insult just because I don’t hate the police.
comment by Just Shoot (U10408)
posted 4 hours, 22 minutes ago
Still, he is a d*ck, but it wasn't his fault Elijah was given ketamine.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
How can you be sure?
The protocol is that the paramedics could have been given an update by the cops and obviously the cops said he was delirious and causing trouble and needed to be controlled. Anyone know what the paramedics said they were told?
Ultimately its the cops fault. If they'd handled the situation as you'd expect from a police officer none of this would have happened. Its entirely their fault that he ended up being given the drugs when he didn't need to. He should have been allowed on his way and that's it, no?
comment by Terminator1 (U1863)
posted 2 hours, 33 minutes ago
comment by FieldsofAnfieldRd (U18971)
posted 1 hour, 47 minutes ago
Term
“ Doesn’t have to be true for Annie. He’s so anti police it makes you wonder what’s he’s been caught for in the past for him to be so blinded by this curious hate.”
Anti coppers discriminating against and killing people yeah. What’s the problem with that?
Keep defending the indefensible. Typical Tory.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
ToryYou’re basically assuming guilt of the police and assuming they’re lying, whilst going on about how innocent the civilians involved are. You’re stereotyping all police and attacking anyone who would rather just wait until all the facts are known, as opposed to you carrying out your own kangaroo court.
And I've never voted Tory. Just a 🔔 end of an insult just because I don’t hate the police.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So after this speech you finish with accusing people who are critical of hating the police. You're doing the same thing you're crying about, no?
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
comment by * and Obelix - Super Duper World Euro Champ19ns (U1282)
posted 28 minutes ago
comment by Terminator1 (U1863)
posted 2 hours, 33 minutes ago
comment by FieldsofAnfieldRd (U18971)
posted 1 hour, 47 minutes ago
Term
“ Doesn’t have to be true for Annie. He’s so anti police it makes you wonder what’s he’s been caught for in the past for him to be so blinded by this curious hate.”
Anti coppers discriminating against and killing people yeah. What’s the problem with that?
Keep defending the indefensible. Typical Tory.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
ToryYou’re basically assuming guilt of the police and assuming they’re lying, whilst going on about how innocent the civilians involved are. You’re stereotyping all police and attacking anyone who would rather just wait until all the facts are known, as opposed to you carrying out your own kangaroo court.
And I've never voted Tory. Just a 🔔 end of an insult just because I don’t hate the police.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So after this speech you finish with accusing people who are critical of hating the police. You're doing the same thing you're crying about, no?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What are you going on about?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If we are to play the 'if' game, what if Elijah just complied with the police requests? As I mentioned before, the way it played started bad and just got worse by both parties actions
-------
What orders did he not obey?
If a person does not comply with police requests they are subdued and taken into custody, not held in a chokehold for 10 minutes while puking and dying slowly. A chokehold can be used to subdue, but not for 10 minutes on a handcuffed guy, that's murder.
I get you, but you have this the wrong way around in my opinion. This is the police. They're meant to serve not dictate or respond because their pride got hurt. It doesn't matter if a person does not comply when it comes to judging the action taken by police. The onus is on police to always follow the law and police protocols.
I mean, it's their job to deal with people who might not comply. They are supposed to expect that and deal with it accordingly. When a cop fails to do so (and therefore fails to do his job) and you say 'yeah, but the civilian didn't comply' then this doesn't make sense in view of the scope of police work. Its an argument that would enable police to continue to break the rules.
Typically, criminals rarely comply with police orders but it's still wrong for cops to take action that is not legal, no matter what. There must be absolute responsibility on the cop, as opposed to a civilian to act legally, for obvious reasons.
The point being, the behaviour of a civilian does not add or remove new rules which the cop has to follow. The rules are there for every eventuality. You can't argue the reverse for civilians because if everyone acted accordingly we wouldn't need police in the first place.
So you can argue
comment by Terminator1 (U1863)
posted 25 minutes ago
comment by * and Obelix - Super Duper World Euro Champ19ns (U1282)
posted 28 minutes ago
comment by Terminator1 (U1863)
posted 2 hours, 33 minutes ago
comment by FieldsofAnfieldRd (U18971)
posted 1 hour, 47 minutes ago
Term
“ Doesn’t have to be true for Annie. He’s so anti police it makes you wonder what’s he’s been caught for in the past for him to be so blinded by this curious hate.”
Anti coppers discriminating against and killing people yeah. What’s the problem with that?
Keep defending the indefensible. Typical Tory.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
ToryYou’re basically assuming guilt of the police and assuming they’re lying, whilst going on about how innocent the civilians involved are. You’re stereotyping all police and attacking anyone who would rather just wait until all the facts are known, as opposed to you carrying out your own kangaroo court.
And I've never voted Tory. Just a 🔔 end of an insult just because I don’t hate the police.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So after this speech you finish with accusing people who are critical of hating the police. You're doing the same thing you're crying about, no?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What are you going on about?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I guess my point is its not really hatred for police.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
comment by * and Obelix - Super Duper World Euro Champ19ns (U1282)
posted 21 minutes ago
comment by Terminator1 (U1863)
posted 25 minutes ago
comment by * and Obelix - Super Duper World Euro Champ19ns (U1282)
posted 28 minutes ago
comment by Terminator1 (U1863)
posted 2 hours, 33 minutes ago
comment by FieldsofAnfieldRd (U18971)
posted 1 hour, 47 minutes ago
Term
“ Doesn’t have to be true for Annie. He’s so anti police it makes you wonder what’s he’s been caught for in the past for him to be so blinded by this curious hate.”
Anti coppers discriminating against and killing people yeah. What’s the problem with that?
Keep defending the indefensible. Typical Tory.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
ToryYou’re basically assuming guilt of the police and assuming they’re lying, whilst going on about how innocent the civilians involved are. You’re stereotyping all police and attacking anyone who would rather just wait until all the facts are known, as opposed to you carrying out your own kangaroo court.
And I've never voted Tory. Just a 🔔 end of an insult just because I don’t hate the police.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So after this speech you finish with accusing people who are critical of hating the police. You're doing the same thing you're crying about, no?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What are you going on about?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I guess my point is its not really hatred for police.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If you read Annie’s posts earlier, then it’s pretty obvious he holds all police in utter contempt.....
comment by Terminator1 (U1863)
posted 1 hour, 12 minutes ago
comment by * and Obelix - Super Duper World Euro Champ19ns (U1282)
posted 21 minutes ago
comment by Terminator1 (U1863)
posted 25 minutes ago
comment by * and Obelix - Super Duper World Euro Champ19ns (U1282)
posted 28 minutes ago
comment by Terminator1 (U1863)
posted 2 hours, 33 minutes ago
comment by FieldsofAnfieldRd (U18971)
posted 1 hour, 47 minutes ago
Term
“ Doesn’t have to be true for Annie. He’s so anti police it makes you wonder what’s he’s been caught for in the past for him to be so blinded by this curious hate.”
Anti coppers discriminating against and killing people yeah. What’s the problem with that?
Keep defending the indefensible. Typical Tory.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
ToryYou’re basically assuming guilt of the police and assuming they’re lying, whilst going on about how innocent the civilians involved are. You’re stereotyping all police and attacking anyone who would rather just wait until all the facts are known, as opposed to you carrying out your own kangaroo court.
And I've never voted Tory. Just a 🔔 end of an insult just because I don’t hate the police.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So after this speech you finish with accusing people who are critical of hating the police. You're doing the same thing you're crying about, no?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What are you going on about?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I guess my point is its not really hatred for police.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If you read Annie’s posts earlier, then it’s pretty obvious he holds all police in utter contempt.....
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I didn't read it tbh. My bad.
Did the police follow protocol? I don't know what they do in the US. The problem with protocols is they don't cover every eventuality because some of the judgements are subjective. And this makes things messy.
------
There's no way putting a handcuffed guy in a chokehold for 10 minutes is protocol. If it is then it doesn't make much difference because change would still be needed.
It sounds like he had become calm and docile from all the choking by the time he died. He even apologised for puking. Police are trained to use sufficient force depending on the changing circumstances and you can't argue he was a threat while handcuffed and puking.
So I don't see how whether they followed protocol is even a question. Even if the civilian is the most wanted and dangerous criminal ever, you don't put him in handcuffs and choke him to death. So IMO it means little whether he complied when judging the actions of the police in this particular case.
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Is Bianca Williams now above the law ?
Page 5 of 22
6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10
posted on 9/7/20
comment by Just Shoot (U10408)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by FieldsofAnfieldRd (U18971)
posted 27 minutes ago
comment by Just Shoot (U10408)
posted 1 hour, 45 minutes ago
comment by it'sonlyagame (U6426)
posted 1 hour, 26 minutes ago
More seriously though, have any of you read about the case of Elijah McClain?
I am the type of person who tries to see things from different perspectives rather than rush to conclusions. There is no baseless speculation in what comes below and no twisting of any known facts.
This young man's death might or might not have been as a direct result of the police intervention; it seems at least just as likely that it was partly induced by the ketamine overdose he was administered by the paramedics. But the description of the events and of the 23-year-old himself illustrate for me what an SHOCKINGLY OVER-POLICED system and societal racism are all about.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Elijah_McClain
So 'sketchy behaviour' is wearing ski goggles on 25th February in Denver, and walking down the street 'flailing your arms' while wearing EARPHONES?
The phone operator regards it as sketchy enough to dispatch a 3-man patrol? Maybe she is just following protocol.
Hopefully, however, as you read through, and even if you're old and white like me, you'll start to ask yourself what kind of fecking protocol establishes and endorses the measures taken in this case.
So, the patrol drives around and considers it is indeed sketchy enough to not just drive past and say "nothing to see here", but get out and approach the man?
Or, again, perhaps this is just following protocol. In which case... I hope you are getting this by now.
Regardless of conflicting accounts of how the scuffle broke out, all three officers' body cams fall off, despite audio recording one of the officers telling another to take it off?
- I doubt protocol includes taking body cameras off. But, if it does...
The man allegedly reached for one of the officer's guns, although in the audio recording the officer in question is heard saying he does not recall such a thing happening.
The man is held down, handcuffed with his arms behind his back and kept in a chokehold for 15 minutes. He repeatedly vomits, for which he apologises, saying: "I'm sorry, I wasn’t trying to do that, I can't breathe correctly"
Despite this, upon the arrival of a team of paramedics, he is considered to be in a state of "excited delirium" (*) and requires a shot of ketamine to calm him. See below.
He is then judged to weigh "around 200 pounds". He is actually 5ft 6in/167.5cm tall and weighs 140 lb. He is administered a dose of ketamine for someone almost twice his size, because ... protocol?
(*) Excited delirium is not recognized by professional medical associations. No reputable medical organization — not the American Medical Association nor the American Psychological Association — recognize excited delirium as a medical or mental-health condition. (Wikipedia)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This was definitely a tragedy that should not have happened. However, it was in August not February and wearing a ski mask and having flailing arms isn't normal behaviour. Not enough to warrant arrest, sure, but possibly worth investigating.
As for the dose of ketamine, I have no idea why that we administrated, but I'm not a medical professional. But surely that can't be on the police?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
https://youtu.be/1hNxC6VT20A
This is the same officer involved in that shooting.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He seems a bit of a d*ck, but there was no shooting.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well that’s an improvement. Can’t wait for the ‘well done for not shooting anyone this time’ commendation
Didn’t report getting his firearm out from its holster like he’s meant to. He’s still got an attitude in him as well.
posted on 9/7/20
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 9/7/20
comment by Just Shoot (U10408)
posted 57 seconds ago
comment by FieldsofAnfieldRd (U18971)
posted 53 minutes ago
comment by Just Shoot (U10408)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by FieldsofAnfieldRd (U18971)
posted 27 minutes ago
comment by Just Shoot (U10408)
posted 1 hour, 45 minutes ago
comment by it'sonlyagame (U6426)
posted 1 hour, 26 minutes ago
More seriously though, have any of you read about the case of Elijah McClain?
I am the type of person who tries to see things from different perspectives rather than rush to conclusions. There is no baseless speculation in what comes below and no twisting of any known facts.
This young man's death might or might not have been as a direct result of the police intervention; it seems at least just as likely that it was partly induced by the ketamine overdose he was administered by the paramedics. But the description of the events and of the 23-year-old himself illustrate for me what an SHOCKINGLY OVER-POLICED system and societal racism are all about.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Elijah_McClain
So 'sketchy behaviour' is wearing ski goggles on 25th February in Denver, and walking down the street 'flailing your arms' while wearing EARPHONES?
The phone operator regards it as sketchy enough to dispatch a 3-man patrol? Maybe she is just following protocol.
Hopefully, however, as you read through, and even if you're old and white like me, you'll start to ask yourself what kind of fecking protocol establishes and endorses the measures taken in this case.
So, the patrol drives around and considers it is indeed sketchy enough to not just drive past and say "nothing to see here", but get out and approach the man?
Or, again, perhaps this is just following protocol. In which case... I hope you are getting this by now.
Regardless of conflicting accounts of how the scuffle broke out, all three officers' body cams fall off, despite audio recording one of the officers telling another to take it off?
- I doubt protocol includes taking body cameras off. But, if it does...
The man allegedly reached for one of the officer's guns, although in the audio recording the officer in question is heard saying he does not recall such a thing happening.
The man is held down, handcuffed with his arms behind his back and kept in a chokehold for 15 minutes. He repeatedly vomits, for which he apologises, saying: "I'm sorry, I wasn’t trying to do that, I can't breathe correctly"
Despite this, upon the arrival of a team of paramedics, he is considered to be in a state of "excited delirium" (*) and requires a shot of ketamine to calm him. See below.
He is then judged to weigh "around 200 pounds". He is actually 5ft 6in/167.5cm tall and weighs 140 lb. He is administered a dose of ketamine for someone almost twice his size, because ... protocol?
(*) Excited delirium is not recognized by professional medical associations. No reputable medical organization — not the American Medical Association nor the American Psychological Association — recognize excited delirium as a medical or mental-health condition. (Wikipedia)
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This was definitely a tragedy that should not have happened. However, it was in August not February and wearing a ski mask and having flailing arms isn't normal behaviour. Not enough to warrant arrest, sure, but possibly worth investigating.
As for the dose of ketamine, I have no idea why that we administrated, but I'm not a medical professional. But surely that can't be on the police?
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https://youtu.be/1hNxC6VT20A
This is the same officer involved in that shooting.
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He seems a bit of a d*ck, but there was no shooting.
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Well that’s an improvement. Can’t wait for the ‘well done for not shooting anyone this time’ commendation
Didn’t report getting his firearm out from its holster like he’s meant to. He’s still got an attitude in him as well.
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Who did he shoot? It wasn't Elijah or that guy.
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Doesn’t have to be true for Annie. He’s so anti police it makes you wonder what’s he’s been caught for in the past for him to be so blinded by this curious hate.
posted on 9/7/20
comment by Just Shoot (U10408)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by FieldsofAnfieldRd (U18971)
posted 53 minutes ago
comment by Just Shoot (U10408)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by FieldsofAnfieldRd (U18971)
posted 27 minutes ago
comment by Just Shoot (U10408)
posted 1 hour, 45 minutes ago
comment by it'sonlyagame (U6426)
posted 1 hour, 26 minutes ago
More seriously though, have any of you read about the case of Elijah McClain?
I am the type of person who tries to see things from different perspectives rather than rush to conclusions. There is no baseless speculation in what comes below and no twisting of any known facts.
This young man's death might or might not have been as a direct result of the police intervention; it seems at least just as likely that it was partly induced by the ketamine overdose he was administered by the paramedics. But the description of the events and of the 23-year-old himself illustrate for me what an SHOCKINGLY OVER-POLICED system and societal racism are all about.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Elijah_McClain
So 'sketchy behaviour' is wearing ski goggles on 25th February in Denver, and walking down the street 'flailing your arms' while wearing EARPHONES?
The phone operator regards it as sketchy enough to dispatch a 3-man patrol? Maybe she is just following protocol.
Hopefully, however, as you read through, and even if you're old and white like me, you'll start to ask yourself what kind of fecking protocol establishes and endorses the measures taken in this case.
So, the patrol drives around and considers it is indeed sketchy enough to not just drive past and say "nothing to see here", but get out and approach the man?
Or, again, perhaps this is just following protocol. In which case... I hope you are getting this by now.
Regardless of conflicting accounts of how the scuffle broke out, all three officers' body cams fall off, despite audio recording one of the officers telling another to take it off?
- I doubt protocol includes taking body cameras off. But, if it does...
The man allegedly reached for one of the officer's guns, although in the audio recording the officer in question is heard saying he does not recall such a thing happening.
The man is held down, handcuffed with his arms behind his back and kept in a chokehold for 15 minutes. He repeatedly vomits, for which he apologises, saying: "I'm sorry, I wasn’t trying to do that, I can't breathe correctly"
Despite this, upon the arrival of a team of paramedics, he is considered to be in a state of "excited delirium" (*) and requires a shot of ketamine to calm him. See below.
He is then judged to weigh "around 200 pounds". He is actually 5ft 6in/167.5cm tall and weighs 140 lb. He is administered a dose of ketamine for someone almost twice his size, because ... protocol?
(*) Excited delirium is not recognized by professional medical associations. No reputable medical organization — not the American Medical Association nor the American Psychological Association — recognize excited delirium as a medical or mental-health condition. (Wikipedia)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This was definitely a tragedy that should not have happened. However, it was in August not February and wearing a ski mask and having flailing arms isn't normal behaviour. Not enough to warrant arrest, sure, but possibly worth investigating.
As for the dose of ketamine, I have no idea why that we administrated, but I'm not a medical professional. But surely that can't be on the police?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
https://youtu.be/1hNxC6VT20A
This is the same officer involved in that shooting.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He seems a bit of a d*ck, but there was no shooting.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well that’s an improvement. Can’t wait for the ‘well done for not shooting anyone this time’ commendation
Didn’t report getting his firearm out from its holster like he’s meant to. He’s still got an attitude in him as well.
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Who did he shoot? It wasn't Elijah or that guy.
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Sorry got the name of the incident wrong. Same officer was involved in the unlawful killing of Elijah.
Better?
posted on 9/7/20
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 9/7/20
Term
“ Doesn’t have to be true for Annie. He’s so anti police it makes you wonder what’s he’s been caught for in the past for him to be so blinded by this curious hate.”
Anti coppers discriminating against and killing people yeah. What’s the problem with that?
Keep defending the indefensible. Typical Tory.
posted on 9/7/20
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 9/7/20
comment by Just Shoot (U10408)
posted 22 seconds ago
Still, he is a d*ck, but it wasn't his fault Elijah was given ketamine.
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It was his fault the body cam fell off? Or having the lad in a chokehold whilst in cuffs, whilst vomiting and saying he can’t breathe?
Who used this term ‘excited delirium’ leading paramedics to think he needed calming down?
How much calming down does someone who’s been in a chokehold for 15 minutes, has vomited and been unable to breathe?
More than a d*ck. But yeah let that guy a gun keep his gun & badge. What could possibly go wrong later down the line?
posted on 9/7/20
*But yeah let that guy keep his gun & badge. What could possibly go wrong later down the line?
posted on 9/7/20
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 9/7/20
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 9/7/20
comment by Just Shoot (U10408)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by FieldsofAnfieldRd (U18971)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Just Shoot (U10408)
posted 22 seconds ago
Still, he is a d*ck, but it wasn't his fault Elijah was given ketamine.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It was his fault the body cam fell off? Or having the lad in a chokehold whilst in cuffs, whilst vomiting and saying he can’t breathe?
Who used this term ‘excited delirium’ leading paramedics to think he needed calming down?
How much calming down does someone who’s been in a chokehold for 15 minutes, has vomited and been unable to breathe?
More than a d*ck. But yeah let that guy a gun keep his gun & badge. What could possibly go wrong later down the line?
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That the paramedics call though.
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The police were talking about him ‘obviously being on something’ to paramedics. Was there any proof of this?
I don’t doubt the paramedics acted incorrectly. Coming into the situation part of the way through it didn’t help they were misinformed by the police.
posted on 9/7/20
comment by Just Shoot (U10408)
posted 14 minutes ago
Some bodycam footage.
https://youtu.be/s78szANlt-c
Not passing judgement, just an observation, shouldn't people just comply with police requests??
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He did. They went in hard front he start on the lad. He didn’t have a clue what was going on. The 911 call operator even stated he wasn’t a danger or threat to anyone to the caller. Why go in on the lad like that?
posted on 9/7/20
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 9/7/20
comment by FieldsofAnfieldRd (U18971)
posted 1 hour, 47 minutes ago
Term
“ Doesn’t have to be true for Annie. He’s so anti police it makes you wonder what’s he’s been caught for in the past for him to be so blinded by this curious hate.”
Anti coppers discriminating against and killing people yeah. What’s the problem with that?
Keep defending the indefensible. Typical Tory.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Tory You’re basically assuming guilt of the police and assuming they’re lying, whilst going on about how innocent the civilians involved are. You’re stereotyping all police and attacking anyone who would rather just wait until all the facts are known, as opposed to you carrying out your own kangaroo court.
And I've never voted Tory. Just a 🔔 end of an insult just because I don’t hate the police.
posted on 9/7/20
comment by Just Shoot (U10408)
posted 4 hours, 22 minutes ago
Still, he is a d*ck, but it wasn't his fault Elijah was given ketamine.
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How can you be sure?
The protocol is that the paramedics could have been given an update by the cops and obviously the cops said he was delirious and causing trouble and needed to be controlled. Anyone know what the paramedics said they were told?
Ultimately its the cops fault. If they'd handled the situation as you'd expect from a police officer none of this would have happened. Its entirely their fault that he ended up being given the drugs when he didn't need to. He should have been allowed on his way and that's it, no?
posted on 9/7/20
comment by Terminator1 (U1863)
posted 2 hours, 33 minutes ago
comment by FieldsofAnfieldRd (U18971)
posted 1 hour, 47 minutes ago
Term
“ Doesn’t have to be true for Annie. He’s so anti police it makes you wonder what’s he’s been caught for in the past for him to be so blinded by this curious hate.”
Anti coppers discriminating against and killing people yeah. What’s the problem with that?
Keep defending the indefensible. Typical Tory.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
ToryYou’re basically assuming guilt of the police and assuming they’re lying, whilst going on about how innocent the civilians involved are. You’re stereotyping all police and attacking anyone who would rather just wait until all the facts are known, as opposed to you carrying out your own kangaroo court.
And I've never voted Tory. Just a 🔔 end of an insult just because I don’t hate the police.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So after this speech you finish with accusing people who are critical of hating the police. You're doing the same thing you're crying about, no?
posted on 9/7/20
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 9/7/20
comment by * and Obelix - Super Duper World Euro Champ19ns (U1282)
posted 28 minutes ago
comment by Terminator1 (U1863)
posted 2 hours, 33 minutes ago
comment by FieldsofAnfieldRd (U18971)
posted 1 hour, 47 minutes ago
Term
“ Doesn’t have to be true for Annie. He’s so anti police it makes you wonder what’s he’s been caught for in the past for him to be so blinded by this curious hate.”
Anti coppers discriminating against and killing people yeah. What’s the problem with that?
Keep defending the indefensible. Typical Tory.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
ToryYou’re basically assuming guilt of the police and assuming they’re lying, whilst going on about how innocent the civilians involved are. You’re stereotyping all police and attacking anyone who would rather just wait until all the facts are known, as opposed to you carrying out your own kangaroo court.
And I've never voted Tory. Just a 🔔 end of an insult just because I don’t hate the police.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So after this speech you finish with accusing people who are critical of hating the police. You're doing the same thing you're crying about, no?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What are you going on about?
posted on 9/7/20
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If we are to play the 'if' game, what if Elijah just complied with the police requests? As I mentioned before, the way it played started bad and just got worse by both parties actions
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What orders did he not obey?
If a person does not comply with police requests they are subdued and taken into custody, not held in a chokehold for 10 minutes while puking and dying slowly. A chokehold can be used to subdue, but not for 10 minutes on a handcuffed guy, that's murder.
I get you, but you have this the wrong way around in my opinion. This is the police. They're meant to serve not dictate or respond because their pride got hurt. It doesn't matter if a person does not comply when it comes to judging the action taken by police. The onus is on police to always follow the law and police protocols.
I mean, it's their job to deal with people who might not comply. They are supposed to expect that and deal with it accordingly. When a cop fails to do so (and therefore fails to do his job) and you say 'yeah, but the civilian didn't comply' then this doesn't make sense in view of the scope of police work. Its an argument that would enable police to continue to break the rules.
Typically, criminals rarely comply with police orders but it's still wrong for cops to take action that is not legal, no matter what. There must be absolute responsibility on the cop, as opposed to a civilian to act legally, for obvious reasons.
The point being, the behaviour of a civilian does not add or remove new rules which the cop has to follow. The rules are there for every eventuality. You can't argue the reverse for civilians because if everyone acted accordingly we wouldn't need police in the first place.
So you can argue
posted on 9/7/20
comment by Terminator1 (U1863)
posted 25 minutes ago
comment by * and Obelix - Super Duper World Euro Champ19ns (U1282)
posted 28 minutes ago
comment by Terminator1 (U1863)
posted 2 hours, 33 minutes ago
comment by FieldsofAnfieldRd (U18971)
posted 1 hour, 47 minutes ago
Term
“ Doesn’t have to be true for Annie. He’s so anti police it makes you wonder what’s he’s been caught for in the past for him to be so blinded by this curious hate.”
Anti coppers discriminating against and killing people yeah. What’s the problem with that?
Keep defending the indefensible. Typical Tory.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
ToryYou’re basically assuming guilt of the police and assuming they’re lying, whilst going on about how innocent the civilians involved are. You’re stereotyping all police and attacking anyone who would rather just wait until all the facts are known, as opposed to you carrying out your own kangaroo court.
And I've never voted Tory. Just a 🔔 end of an insult just because I don’t hate the police.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So after this speech you finish with accusing people who are critical of hating the police. You're doing the same thing you're crying about, no?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What are you going on about?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I guess my point is its not really hatred for police.
posted on 9/7/20
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 9/7/20
comment by * and Obelix - Super Duper World Euro Champ19ns (U1282)
posted 21 minutes ago
comment by Terminator1 (U1863)
posted 25 minutes ago
comment by * and Obelix - Super Duper World Euro Champ19ns (U1282)
posted 28 minutes ago
comment by Terminator1 (U1863)
posted 2 hours, 33 minutes ago
comment by FieldsofAnfieldRd (U18971)
posted 1 hour, 47 minutes ago
Term
“ Doesn’t have to be true for Annie. He’s so anti police it makes you wonder what’s he’s been caught for in the past for him to be so blinded by this curious hate.”
Anti coppers discriminating against and killing people yeah. What’s the problem with that?
Keep defending the indefensible. Typical Tory.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
ToryYou’re basically assuming guilt of the police and assuming they’re lying, whilst going on about how innocent the civilians involved are. You’re stereotyping all police and attacking anyone who would rather just wait until all the facts are known, as opposed to you carrying out your own kangaroo court.
And I've never voted Tory. Just a 🔔 end of an insult just because I don’t hate the police.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So after this speech you finish with accusing people who are critical of hating the police. You're doing the same thing you're crying about, no?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What are you going on about?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I guess my point is its not really hatred for police.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If you read Annie’s posts earlier, then it’s pretty obvious he holds all police in utter contempt.....
posted on 9/7/20
comment by Terminator1 (U1863)
posted 1 hour, 12 minutes ago
comment by * and Obelix - Super Duper World Euro Champ19ns (U1282)
posted 21 minutes ago
comment by Terminator1 (U1863)
posted 25 minutes ago
comment by * and Obelix - Super Duper World Euro Champ19ns (U1282)
posted 28 minutes ago
comment by Terminator1 (U1863)
posted 2 hours, 33 minutes ago
comment by FieldsofAnfieldRd (U18971)
posted 1 hour, 47 minutes ago
Term
“ Doesn’t have to be true for Annie. He’s so anti police it makes you wonder what’s he’s been caught for in the past for him to be so blinded by this curious hate.”
Anti coppers discriminating against and killing people yeah. What’s the problem with that?
Keep defending the indefensible. Typical Tory.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
ToryYou’re basically assuming guilt of the police and assuming they’re lying, whilst going on about how innocent the civilians involved are. You’re stereotyping all police and attacking anyone who would rather just wait until all the facts are known, as opposed to you carrying out your own kangaroo court.
And I've never voted Tory. Just a 🔔 end of an insult just because I don’t hate the police.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So after this speech you finish with accusing people who are critical of hating the police. You're doing the same thing you're crying about, no?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What are you going on about?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I guess my point is its not really hatred for police.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If you read Annie’s posts earlier, then it’s pretty obvious he holds all police in utter contempt.....
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I didn't read it tbh. My bad.
posted on 9/7/20
Did the police follow protocol? I don't know what they do in the US. The problem with protocols is they don't cover every eventuality because some of the judgements are subjective. And this makes things messy.
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There's no way putting a handcuffed guy in a chokehold for 10 minutes is protocol. If it is then it doesn't make much difference because change would still be needed.
It sounds like he had become calm and docile from all the choking by the time he died. He even apologised for puking. Police are trained to use sufficient force depending on the changing circumstances and you can't argue he was a threat while handcuffed and puking.
So I don't see how whether they followed protocol is even a question. Even if the civilian is the most wanted and dangerous criminal ever, you don't put him in handcuffs and choke him to death. So IMO it means little whether he complied when judging the actions of the police in this particular case.
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