Wenger's spot on....but

What ever happened to building a club and running it within its means
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Thats what Wenger has been doing for the past fourteen years..

Spurs fans still bitter about going out the CL. If you and your money hungry chairman were offered a place in the CL tomorrow you'd be "in it like a shot" so less of the hypocracy

And if you want to look at club overspending, look no further than your own club. Your latest interim report shows that without the CL money you would have made a loss just like previous years. In fact the losses would have been even greater if it hadn't been for the CL.

Hey mate - I'm sure our club would be 'in it like a shot' - as would any other club because that's what exists at the moment.
I'm not being hypocritical at all - I've ALWAYS been against the Champions' League and always will be, whether my team happens to be in it or not.

I would scrap it tomorrow.

What my club does to try to get its own snout in the trough is just as much a by-product of the creation of this poxy competition as any other club's overspending (though not as outlandish as some). I'm happy to admit that. But that's up to them - I don't agree with it, though.

And if our manager ever pretended we were doing anything other than 'playing the game' I'd laugh at that as well.

I'd prefer to see us swallow our pride and lead a campaign to end the whole farce - but we won't because it would sound like sour grapes.

Wenger is moaning about clubs spending beyond their means when his club were instrumental in creating the situation that now exists.

All I'm saying is that it's ironic. I actually respect the man and think he has a good football philosophy - but he's also intelligent enough to know the real culprit for all this ridiculous investment by foreign billionaires is the competition his club helped force into creation.

I don't see the link between the CL and what's happening to clubs spending beyond their means right now. And seeing as every single club in the prem would jump at the chance of being in the CL it seems unfair to lay the blame at the doorstep of United and Arsenal.

You've also said that they threatened to form a break away league and that's the reason why, but did they really? I've heard these claims before and even regarding a new super league of european teams up until a couple of years ago, but there's never been anything tangible to support this. There was the European Cup already and the new format was created by UEFA as much for their financial benefit as anyone else's.

So why are these rich owners coming? Why are they buying clubs in the PL if as you say this is about the CL and they could buy a cash strapped CL club on the continent? Imo it's because of the global financial appeal, in terms of marketing and revenue from shirt sales and other merchandise that PL teams can potentially bring. It's probably the most watched league in the world and that attracts these businessmen.

Where I do agree is that it is ruining the league, but bear in mind this is an extension of what's been happening to clubs since the very beginning. Back then you had the local mill owners and other businessmen buying up the local clubs, now we have foreign businessmen doing the same. As far as Arsene's comments are concerned, he should think about the methods he uses to bring in players. Yeh he doesn't like spending money, but he's had almost exclusive access to the world's best talents in France through the Claire Fontaine academy and he goes around europe picking up potential stars from clubs before they can sign a professional contract on the continent. They see no return on the money they've spent or the millions they could have made as well as the successes they could have had. Isn't what he's doing damaging those clubs and football in general?

The thing that annoys most about Arsene is that he has nobody else to blame for not winning the Carling Cup or the League last season than himself or his board. Was the line up for Birmingham bustling with multi-million pound superstars? Was it anyone else's fault that their players didn't have the mental strength to see the league through when those around them (Chelsea and United) were stumbling themselves to the finishing line. He's just an irrational whinger who wants to always look elsewhere for blame rather than himself. Mourinho had a point when he called him a voyeur.

*That should read

Was it anyone else's fault that arsenal's players...

Mate I'm not sure how old you are but your comment about no tangible evidence for pressure to form a Euro super league would indicate you're not as old as me (and you wouldn't want to be LOL!) but have a bit of a scout around and you'll find it was pressure from the teams that eventually became G14 that forced Uefa into creating the CL. Direct, very open, very direct threats.


Basically ManU had spent too much time in the shadows of Liverpool for their liking and, embarking on a period of domination thanks to the (admittedly very 'football' advantage of bringin a super little group of players through all at once - Giggs, Scholes, Beckham, the Nevilles etc, they wanted to capitalise on it and ensure that things were never left to chance again.

They didn't see why they, and clubs like them, should be hostages to the randomness of knockout football - and the prospect of possibly their superstars travelling to a first round European cup tie at some hell hole like Tbilisi and being knocked out - and denied any more Euro TV money.

They wanted to make sure they had a certain number of games - and the guarantee of multi-million pounds of TV money - for those few years of dominance. And they figured (rightly as it turned out) that once they'd done that for a few years, they'd be part of an elite that would self-perpetuate.

If you are in any doubt at all - google G14 football clubs and look at its manifesto. It was all about promoting the interests of those clubs - and, basically, **** anyone else. Quite overt, quite direct.

The result was the CL - which adds nothing to the game overall, just pours too much money to too few teams each year. And THAT, and the guarantee of millions of pounds each year, attracted foreign businessmen with no previous interest in our clubs (because it was too much a 'heart' decision, with too much risk involved).

The mill owners and Jack Walkers of this world knew there was a risk - but they invested because they were fans and loved THEIR clubs. For the likes of Abramovich, Glazers, the City sheikhs and, watch out.... Kroenke's etc of this world, they are toys and commodities. Opportunities to flex their muscles against other billionaires and stretch their worldwide reputations. That's it.

When I grew up ANY European game involving ANY British club would have the entire football-watching community absolutely glued to their sets to watch each magical encounter because it was 'special', a rarity, the icing on the cake of your domestic league or cup victory.

We watched Dundee United, Aberdeen, Everton, Newcastle, Ipswich and, yes, Tottenham, ManU and Liverpool etc play in Europe and - a bit of banter aside - we were all behind them as OUR representatives in Europe.

Nowadays even my Man U and Chelsea supporting friends can't be bothered to watch half the CL early round games and the rest of us have a direct vested interest in wanting them NOT to do well, as it moves them further and further ahead of our teams financially and in terms of their ability to attract players.

It shouldn't be like that.

It's all false, it's nowt to do with football and, truly, not being hypocritical, I hate what it's done to football.

With a passion.

As you can probably tell.

Oh I'm at the age where "life" apparently "starts" (as the saying goes) so I am not one of the youngsters on here. Granted I was turning twenty when the CL started so maybe my recollection isn't great, but when I've looked up G14 it says it was formed in 2000. I've had a quick look around for some history on this, but not anything mentioned about it, but I will spend a bit of time to check it our properly. The reason why I didn't take it seriously was because a couple of years ago it was mooted that the top 4 clubs in the major leagues wanted to form a breakaway "super league" of their own. Those rumours were later quoshed.

I do remember the enthusiasm with which everyone used to follow the European Cup, but tbh I also remember the same in the early years of the CL too. The trouble now is the over-exposure of football nowadays. It's on 24/7 and there's nothing special about it. If you look at the CL in the early stages, you had teams like Ajax, Marseille, Dortmund and even upto Leverkeusen, Porto, Monaco all reaching the final or winning it. These were teams that were developed from within and used true home grown talent. It's unlikely we will see clubs like these reaching another final unless by some miracle.The top clubs are now poaching the best talents away from these clubs so what chance do they have. And this stripping of other teams best talents has gone into overdrive over the last 6 or 7 years in my opinion. Which kind of leads me to believe that even if the old European Cup format was still around, we'd still be where we are now.

Regarding watching the CL, I would say I still watch every United match. Do I watch all the games of the other English teams - no. Do I not want the other English teams not to succeed in the CL - no (although I didn't feel that way towards Spurs or Newcastle when they were in it). Even though I watch the group stages, it is very obvious that half the games are a waste of time. You can usually predict which two teams will qualify so there's no doubt it is just a money making exercise. It also does lessen the competition as a spectacle.

The way that football clubs are being owned and run is a pandora's box which is well and truly opened and I can't see how it's going to change.

I know what you mean about the richest clubs getting richer and the others not getting a look in, but it's a business now and what we should ask is why this "business" mentality of running a football club on and off the pitch seems to be more evident in English football than anywhere else. And I don't just mean the top 6 or 7 clubs. I'm talking all the way down to number 20. Why is it that clubs compromise on their attitude to the art of football, rather than sticking 10 men behind the ball and playing route one football just so they can secure an extra point to avoid the drop? What happened to the mentality that you played football in the spirit of the game and if you weren't good enough you got relegated and if you were the best you won the league. This attitude still exists on the continent in leagues like La Liga and Bundesliga, Ligue etc. We justify it by saying it's playing to the team's strength. Codswallop, you're selling your soul for the financial gains of clutching onto the Prem and for what, so that you can make the league just as mundane the next season? You're ripping out the heart of football as much as the rich owners by approaching the game in this way. This is what worries me about modern football, particularly in this country. With a passion

Bloody hell I didn't realise I'd written that much

LancsSpur

I thought I was the only poster on here who had views like that about the CL.

I agree totally it has played a big part in ruining the game as we know it in this country

NN-nineteen - G14 was established as a formal organisation later than the CL's creation but those same clubs were pressuring Uefa and threatening to form a super league as an informal cartel of big clubs much earlier. The G14 manifesto verbalised the actions those clubs had been displaying for quite a few years.

United's chief exec of the time was a major player in all of that.

Outside of those clubs there was absolutely no demand for a Euro 'league' and it was only suggested to create more games (guaranteed) and more TV money.

I think you're right - I think it is too late now to reverse it all.

But, as I said earlier, no Champions' League, no Glazers.

Man U, Liverpool and our best supported clubs would still win more than most if we returned to how it was (and that's fair enough). But it wouldn't be so blimmin predictable every season domestically and lots of other clubs would have a chance, through pure footballing means, of having their own moments of glory.

I'll shut up now - interesting debate chaps. Thanks.