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Tackling Extremism

Hello chaps, been a while since we had a conversation about this, quite enjoy the debates and the positions we take. I found this very interesting article in the Guardian, it is a good read but a long read.

“This morning, the front page of the Daily Mail carries a stark interpretation of David Cameron’s speech on Islamic fundamentalist extremism. “PM: UK Muslims helping jihadis", it booms in thick black text, tarring an entire slice of British citizens in one swoop. On which other community is it possible to inflict such dangerous, sweeping generalisations? The assertion being made here – explicitly, not even implicitly as is the norm – is that British Muslims as a whole are helping mass-murdering zealots inflicting carnage across Iraq, Syria and Libya. Extremists want Muslims to feel rejected, marginalised, treated as a dangerous “other" by the societies in which they live. The Daily Mail follows their script to the letter."

“Too often we hear the argument that radicalisation is the fault of someone else," says our finger-wagging prime minister. “That blame game is wrong – and it is dangerous," he suggests, as he berated the redirecting of blame to authorities, rather than the individual. This is the argument of those who align with Cameron’s way of thinking. There is a “blame the west" mentality which continually reduces the cause of radicalisation to western foreign policy. It infantilises radicalised Muslims, they argue, stripping them of individual agency. An evil poisonous ideology and those who propagate it are to blame, and nothing else."

There is no question that there is indeed a murderous ideology which, in the form of the Isis death cult, is one of the most despicable political forces on earth today. Almost all of its victims are Muslims, a fact which is too often overlooked. Extremist fundamentalist ideologies have often displaced the old secular nationalist movements that were aligned to the deceased Soviet bloc, that once positioned themselves at the head of anti-western sentiment in the Middle East. In Iraq, this shift is unambiguous: many of the the old Baathists are now helping to run Isis.

It is a statement of the obvious that, without this ideology, there would be no radicalisation. And yet, when examining the rise of Nazism, we would not hesitate in examining the role of the punitive treaty of Versailles peace terms after the First World War. A history student would be graded a D- if they simply reduced the rise of Nazism to “evil". In no way would understanding these factors behind Nazism be regarded as somehow legitimising or apologising for it.

Is radicalisation all down to western foreign policy? No: a whole range of factors are involved in radicalisation, and it would be facile to reduce it to one thing or the other. It may be different from one individual to another. But take this judgment: “Our involvement in Iraq radicalised, for want of a better word, a whole generation of young people – not a whole generation, a few among a generation – who saw our involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan as being an attack upon Islam." A statement from the Stop the War Coalition? No – it’s Eliza Manningham-Buller, the former head of MI5. Is she somehow an apologist for making such an observation?

Fourteen years on from the start of the “war on terror", and al-Qaida finally faces defeat, only not at the hands of the west, but rather by Isis, an even more extreme group. The war on Iraq was partly justified by the threat of al-Qaida, who were not present when Saddam Hussein’s murderous secular dictatorship ruled, but who ran amok in the country after the invasion. The western invasion of Libya has produced a broken, failed state increasingly succumbing to Isis and other extremist groups. We assail extremist ideologies at home, while arming and cosying up to Middle Eastern dictatorships whose kingdoms export these ideologies, and are a source of funds and arms for extremist groups in Iraq and Syria.

Here at home, polls already show all too many Britons associate Muslims with terrorism and extremism. Lady Warsi warns that “a policy of disengagement with British Muslim communities" is fuelling radicalisation, too.
Yes, we need to challenge and confront perverse ideologies. That means working in partnership with Muslim organisations and communities, not employing a rhetoric of collective blame that does nothing but play into the hands of extremism. And yes, there are a number of factors driving radicalisation, but we should examine all of them, including factors within our control, such as (but not exclusively) western foreign policy and support for dictatorships complicit in the rise of jihadi terrorism. I fear, though, that currently, we are doing exactly what our opponents will us to do.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jun/19/david-cameron-islamic-extremists-british-muslims

posted on 31/7/15

Wum

I am away to watch England beat Oz at cricket now,so we will no doubt meet again here.

Take it easy,and enjoy your weekend.

posted on 31/7/15

You appear very sensitive for one giving out on virtually every post.Believe it or choose not to,but the term "boy" here is not offensive or insulting,and I was calling you bud,and mate elsewhere,I assume,on another occasion.

I do not hate or dislike you,as this is a forum,and life is too short,believe me on that score.
If you are going to debate,do ot take everything to heart,or personally.
I am used to bantering on the Scottish boards,so there may be some misunderstandings,about how I express myself.
I do not try to be a saint,and simply say what is on my mind,or how I feel,and at times play devil's advocate,to tease out views.

I do regard myself as a proud Ulsterman,and British,and am thankful I live where I do,as it is one of the best places to do so,as is the western world,so called.
Now.you say that is imperialism,because you are from Kenya,and have a different political outlook,and that is your opinion.
I mean we fought for our freedom,against the natzis and communism,for example,and we did colonize in the past,which all people treid to do,and just look at Africa today,and in the past,or Greece,Rome,Turkey,India etc.
I do not carry guilt around on my shoulder and never will,as I did nothing wrong.
Now,those who hate us,and blame us for global evils,now see no irony in people coming here from all over the world,to a nation some see as racist imperialist crusaders.

Go on and point out western error and wrong doing all night,but give the rest of mankind a wee touch too,to be fair.

I never claimed we were perfect,or that I was a saint.

I bumble along,and so does the world............even you Wum,who thinks you have it all worked out.

posted on 31/7/15

Wum

Are you a proud Kenyan,even though you said they abused Somali migrants,and helped boko haram grow?

You think China,France,Russia became large strong nation's without violence,land grab,dirty politics,dodgy business dealings?

You think tribes live peacefully at all times,and do not seek to expand.
You reckon the Vikings were tourists,who got drunk and went mental?

Man is brutal,and as I said before,the western liberal world has progressed,to an extent,and other places are resorting to babrariism and imperialist land grab,mixed with holy jihad gibberish.

iIlamist agenda using,but also free standing and separate from western intervention,imo.See Saudi wahibbism.See Turkey with Armenia genocide 1945/46.See ottoman empire.See those fighting alongside Bosnian muslim's.See Turkey attacking kurds,and isis............complex and messy.

posted on 31/7/15

Comment Deleted by Site Moderator

comment by wump (U5046)

posted on 31/7/15

Whatever, I'm not buying it. Doesn't matter how many times you say it. You repeated the same again in an offensive manner. No one has it figured out but when in a debate you act defensive from the get go, call people providing evidence anti-Western conspiracy theorists base your whole argument on things no one has said like you should blame the West for Africa when we are not talking about that, try to make stupid comments about how we are letting the Islamists off the hook, it just shows you were never interested in a debate from the start and have just wasted everyone's time. Not the first time either, I have had you blurt out the "yes the West is making ISIS behead people, the West is making Boko Haram kidnap girls blah blag blah" when no one has said any of those things when you are provided with evidence how Western foreign policy created the environment for those psychopathic groups to flourish and even put some of them in place. Like I said, you were not interested in debate at all.

comment by wump (U5046)

posted on 31/7/15

I have already explained my view on nationalism here and why it is stupid at best so asking me whether I am proud () is pointless really. And no ttliv, if I am alive I would be up in arms protesting as another persons life isn't worth less than mine just because they hold a different passport. It is such thinking that is quite disturbing really.

posted on 31/7/15

Comment Deleted by Site Moderator

posted on 31/7/15

Wum

That was incoherent rambling on your part,and I am letting it go.

Best way.

comment by wump (U5046)

posted on 5/8/15

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/aug/05/tony-blair-could-face-trial-illegal-iraq-war-jeremy-corbyn?CMP=fb_gu

MUDD check this out!

posted on 5/8/15

Blair and corbyn............both have blood on their hands.

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