Is this season the time when English football changes it's emphasis from the prevalent 4231 to an attack-minded 433, without a defined centre forward, and only one defensively-minded midfield player? The current top 4 sides look to be moving in this direction
ARSENAL
Wenger is one of the pioneers of this shift. Over the last year or so, when Cazorla has been fit he has ofren been dropped in to a much deeper midfield role. Not a player usually associated with an all-action game, he has thrived in this role for Arsenal. With a 10 in Ozil in front of him it makes for a defined 3, with Sanchez taking up the central striking position, with Walcott and Iwobi providing support.
Arsenal have often had forwards suited to playing in a 3, and have played this eay before. Albeit without such an attacking vein.
LIVERPOOL
Liverpool started the season with a line up which looked very open. 5 forwards with Henderson holding appears to be something beyond even Ossie Ardiles' dreams in 1994. But it has worked. Lallana and Wijnaldum have dropped in to that 3 and thrived, and the fluid front three with Firmino as the spearhead is bearing fruit. Mane has been a revelation.
Liverpool are probably the most extreme case. No even a defined defensive player in the side outside of the back four. Exremely bold
MANCHESTER CITY
City have also flirted with this route. Aguero has never been a traditional 9, and it is something that suits his game down to the ground (the best all round forward in the division in my opinion). Nolito and Sterling have been supporting him, and City have lined uo with Silva and KDB in front of Fernandinho. To go to United, without Aguero, and play like this is a bold move.
There have been tweaks to this with City. Feranando and Gundogan have both also supported Fernandinho of late. When all are fit it will be interesting to see what happens.
SPURS
Spurs started the season off with both Dier and Wanyama at the base of the midfield. The antithesis of the article, and performances that were not great. As the season has progressed though, there has been a shift. Eriksen has spent the last few games in a much deeper midfield position, with Alli. Neither have sat deep all game though, and are fully involved. Son has spent time wide, but has takeb up the central striking position of late - late on for the winner in Moscow and City.
This week Poch has spoken of playing with one holder long term. Eriksen had a game in midfield last season (the game escapes me). Kane and Dembele's return may sway things, although Harry is not your traditional 9 and often has players in advance of him even in a 4231. Dembele has not always been a central midfielder either.
THOUGHTS
As is often the case, things like this snowball, and other English sides mirror what is having success. Chelsea have played Fabregas in a deeper position previously and won a title, United have used Pog deeper. Leicester are struggling in midfield with a 2, and have a plethora of fowards. Koeman is well versed in 433 as a Dutchman, and an Ajax and Barca alumni. Perhaps not all the components are there to make it work properly though in each case. I feel there will be a trickle down if this takes hold though.
If anything, it should make for more exciting and open games. English football has lost a bit of its daring and verve over the last few years, with some very stale sides and boring matches.
After a period of pretty low quality from the English league, perhaps this shift will start to make us powerful again - the 4231 has not been our biggest friend in Europe in my opinion.
The morphing from 4231 to an attacking 433
posted on 7/10/16
comment by Boss By Hugo (U18550)
posted 2 hours, 21 minutes ago
We line up in 4-2-3-1 formation but it changes throughout the game.
At times we have Wanyama holding the CDM spot alone with Eriksen and Alli both ahead of him in a 4-1-4-1 formation.
When Rose and Walker attack the wide areas then the CDM drops back, Alderweireld and Vertongehn move to either side and we have something like a 3-4-2-1 or 3-5-2.
It's all about being able to transition between formations and positions depending on the play and opponents. If its not drilled into the players and practised then it all falls apart.
Speaking of formations and positions it just reminded me of when Sherwood decided to wake up one morning before the Chelsea game and play Walker RW. The same man who didn't believe in defensive midfielders
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To be fair, Liverpool are not playing with one currently.
I do not think you need a specialist either. Neither Midric or Huddlestone were what you would call proper defensive midfielders, but both did enough for it to work
posted on 7/10/16
Good article
Reminded me of this article that may interest you:
http://www.fourfourtwo.com/features/modern-central-midfielder-why-premier-league-struggling-europe
posted on 7/10/16
The problem with Spurs' 4-2-3-1 this season is that they used two defensive players in the two, making them difficult to break down but goals harder to come by. Perhaps why Kane has struggled.
Conversely, as you mentioned, Liverpool haven't played with even one defensive player, although Henderson can do a job defensively, you wouldn't want him stuck there. This leads to us being much easier to be got at.
The trick is to be in the middle, with one defensive player and two ahead of him, normally one who will still drop in when defending, whilst pushing forward when attacking and one who will spend most of the time attacking. We've tried Henderson deepest, Wijnaldum filling in depending on the situation and Lallana attacking. For me it should be one of Henderson or Wijnaldum, Lallana or Wijnaldum and Can, when fit, playing the deeper role. However Coutinho is also able to drop in the attacking position. We have a good mix of midfielders who can play different roles.
posted on 7/10/16
comment by There'sOnlyOneReds (U1721)
posted 16 minutes ago
The problem with Spurs' 4-2-3-1 this season is that they used two defensive players in the two, making them difficult to break down but goals harder to come by. Perhaps why Kane has struggled.
Conversely, as you mentioned, Liverpool haven't played with even one defensive player, although Henderson can do a job defensively, you wouldn't want him stuck there. This leads to us being much easier to be got at.
The trick is to be in the middle, with one defensive player and two ahead of him, normally one who will still drop in when defending, whilst pushing forward when attacking and one who will spend most of the time attacking. We've tried Henderson deepest, Wijnaldum filling in depending on the situation and Lallana attacking. For me it should be one of Henderson or Wijnaldum, Lallana or Wijnaldum and Can, when fit, playing the deeper role. However Coutinho is also able to drop in the attacking position. We have a good mix of midfielders who can play different roles.
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We started off like that - as Dembele was suspended - with Dier amd Wanyama.
We are currently pairing Eriksen with Wanyama. Alli being comfortable as a central midfielder certainly helps
posted on 7/10/16
comment by Nir Bitton - Cursed by my username (U13244)
posted 32 minutes ago
Good article
Reminded me of this article that may interest you:
http://www.fourfourtwo.com/features/modern-central-midfielder-why-premier-league-struggling-europe
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Good read, ta
Always liked a tidy fetcher and carrier for one of the central midfield positions myself.
It seems ours will be either Dembele or Eriksen this season. Stylistically not similar, but both able carriers of the ball. If only we could combine the two of them
posted on 7/10/16
comment by HRH King Ledley (U20095)
posted 1 hour ago
comment by Boss By Hugo (U18550)
posted 2 hours, 21 minutes ago
We line up in 4-2-3-1 formation but it changes throughout the game.
At times we have Wanyama holding the CDM spot alone with Eriksen and Alli both ahead of him in a 4-1-4-1 formation.
When Rose and Walker attack the wide areas then the CDM drops back, Alderweireld and Vertongehn move to either side and we have something like a 3-4-2-1 or 3-5-2.
It's all about being able to transition between formations and positions depending on the play and opponents. If its not drilled into the players and practised then it all falls apart.
Speaking of formations and positions it just reminded me of when Sherwood decided to wake up one morning before the Chelsea game and play Walker RW. The same man who didn't believe in defensive midfielders
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To be fair, Liverpool are not playing with one currently.
I do not think you need a specialist either. Neither Midric or Huddlestone were what you would call proper defensive midfielders, but both did enough for it to work
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They've conceded more than any other team in the top half of the league. Its their attacking ability which has saved them and got them wins but its not really sustainable in the long run unless they shore up the defence because forwards wont always be on form.
posted on 7/10/16
The defence won't always leak 2 a game either. Their GD has them in just the right place.
posted on 7/10/16
I think what is being seen is more the elimination of defensive midfielders who do nothing positive and attacking midfielders who never defend.
Midfielders need to do both things again.
posted on 7/10/16
I dont think Formations are particularly important with a lot of managers these days. Klopp for instance has said he takes no notice of the formation, its more about the system employed ie high counter pressing.
Formations are constantly changing during a match, what starts as a 4-3-3 can quickly change to a 4-5-1 or 4-4-2 defensively. Then in attacking transition a fullback bombs on and it becomes a 3-5-2 or 3-3-4 or whatever.
I think in general people put too much stock in where players line up on the pitch to start, rather than how the side are playing as a unit. I just think the switch we are seeing now in the English game is down to having managers like Pep, Poch, Koeman klopp etc.
I just think the English game is catching up to Europe in this.
posted on 8/10/16
comment by Tiddles LFC (U17634)
posted 12 hours, 15 minutes ago
I dont think Formations are particularly important with a lot of managers these days. Klopp for instance has said he takes no notice of the formation, its more about the system employed ie high counter pressing.
Formations are constantly changing during a match, what starts as a 4-3-3 can quickly change to a 4-5-1 or 4-4-2 defensively. Then in attacking transition a fullback bombs on and it becomes a 3-5-2 or 3-3-4 or whatever.
I think in general people put too much stock in where players line up on the pitch to start, rather than how the side are playing as a unit. I just think the switch we are seeing now in the English game is down to having managers like Pep, Poch, Koeman klopp etc.
I just think the English game is catching up to Europe in this.
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The players dictate a formation, no doubt.
I talk of Spurs playing a 4231 previously, but this is not a rigid way of playing - it is just an easy way to describe a style. The fullbacks would not be part of a degensive 4 if you looked at average positions.
I I say 4231 I take it to generally mean a couple of midfield players who are comfortable playing deeper, three forwards who play narrow, a 9, and fullbacks that bomb on. In practice it can be more like a 2431, or a 343 depending on phases of play
With this type of 433 I mean a subtle shift. Only one midfield player you would classify as preferring to play deep. Two technical players in with him who you would normally associate as playing further up the pitch. Three forwards who are interchangeable, all a goal threat. Again, in practice this will often not look like a 433, it is just a way of explaining it.