How do you define a GOAT?
Often the case is made that Messi is the greatest or its Pele or Maradona. But for those born in 80's and after, they haven't seen either of the latter two play in their prime proper. Those born before that have possibly seen one of them, but it's so long ago that often nostalgia creates fonder memories. People tend to stick to players they grew up watching as their favourite most of the times, or in their young adult lives. So those guys who say Maradona was the greatest tend to be middle age and upwards, and Pele fans even older. In the age of internet, it's the younger ages that get the loudest say. This is countered by pundits who tend to be in the bracket that seen Maradona play and more recently also played with/against Messi so in a way these guys are in best position. Even those mostly agree Messi is the greatest.
Is this because suddenly after a match with the shock and excitement still fresh, they make an emotional decision or is it actually thought through? Bear in mind for the younger fans, watching Messi is as good as it ever gets. Other than Ronaldinho and OG Ronaldo, no one else has been able to create shockwaves quite like Messi. But difference is that Messi has done it for much longer against everyone at any stage for club level especially. Is Messi really the best a human has ever been from any era?
You won't hear many say Pele is the greatest anymore. He'll still be remembered as an all time great, but by very few as the GOAT. Maradona will be in contention for a little longer, but the fact is neither players resonate with the vast majority of football fans today. All we have of those two are stories and video snippets of their best play. There's no feeling that comes close to live, jaw dropping moments Messi produces. I'm sure that sort of feeling was felt by people who watched Pele and Maradona play in their prime, and they would be in their right to suggest either is the GOAT.
With the invention of YouTube, improvement in stats, performances of today should have much stronger case for the title of GOAT in decades to come.
This sort of affection watching players live do outrageous things is exactly why it shouldn't be surprising to hear by some that the best two to ever play the game are actually Messi and C Ronaldo. Really, if you've never seen OG Ronaldo in his prime let alone Maradona, is that opinion really wrong?
This of course applies to your own clubs best ever too. In Arsenal's case, it'll be a long time before anyone can actually convince themselves that Henry or Bergkamp weren't the greatest going by current situation. Even those that never watched them will know better not to. In cases like these, stories are still fresh, it was the start of the internet age where nothing is deleted.
In other sports such as boxing or basketball, icons like Ali and MJ will hold their light forever simply for what they did for their sports on a social and consumer level. Both are absolutely unique in that regard. I don't see a footballer making that sort of impact. In future they'll come a time where another will come and make a case to replace Messi as the GOAT, but he'll have it harder than anyone ever has in history.
TL;DR: making a case for GOAT is mostly based on the feeling of what you experienced watching players play live in their prime rather than go of on the old stories passed down ie Maradona won the WC on his own (bit of a myth if you think about it).
Era and affections
posted on 21/9/17
comment by FREAK MEAT (U3245)
posted 3 minutes ago
Maradona simply done things that nobody else could
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such as?
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A lot of the stuff shown here
posted on 21/9/17
https://youtu.be/w21dkqtBwXk
posted on 21/9/17
comment by FREAK MEAT (U3245)
posted 15 minutes ago
Maradona simply done things that nobody else could
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such as?
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For starters, the way he rode a tackle and carried on. You never see anyone able to do that in the way he did in the modern game. People would try to take him down with professional fouls and he would step over them almost as if they were not there sometimes and carry on. If the defenders did that now it would always be a straight red card and the players now would probably need to go to hospital.
That is partly down to the development of the game though as Renoog said. the sprinter comparison is wrong though as running as faast as you can is running as fasst as you can in any time. with the changes in football and protection of players it has gone from a game where players needed a physical ability to take some punishment to a game where they are virtually untouchable and as such they can train and develop their bodies differently. Modern players are primarily athletes whereas older players would have been part athlete and part able to deal with physical stuff. Put Messi or Ronaldo in a game in the 70's and they probably go off injured in the first half. Roll around on the round like they do now and they would have been laughed at.
A friend of mines rugby teacher used to say "Football's for fairies". It really is these days.
posted on 21/9/17
Put Messi or Ronaldo in a game in the 70's and they probably go off injured in the first half. Roll around on the round like they do now and they would have been laughed at. -------------------------------------
If you believe this then you may be the dumbest poster i've come across on this forum, which takes some doing.
Absolute nonsense basing your argument on old age myths.
Do you think rugby is harder now or then? Because even in the 90s a lot of rugby players were just fat.
Sportsmen and stronger, fitter and quicker than ever before. You obviously have not seen messi live or at full flight to see the way he bounces off people and keeps going.
I hope your wumming.
posted on 21/9/17
That Maradona video posted above is hilarious. While his talent is incredible, and he has indeed to cope with horrible lunging tackles flying about all over the pitch, the defensive organisation is laughable. Players taking it in turns to charge out of position and try to take him on 1-on-1 instead of maintaining structure and shepherding him into less threatening areas of the pitch.
This is why the argument that X player wouldn't have been able to cope in the 60s/70s/80s makes me laugh. Defending has got a lot more advanced since those days. All 10 outfield players do it these days, covering increasing distances and with better structure off-the-ball. Granted it's not as brutal as it was back then. But brutal doesn't equal harder.
posted on 21/9/17
Cruyf was the greatest ever. As a player, coach, manager,tactician and innovator. He changed the game as we know it, no other player did that.
Yes, Pele,maradonna etc had some great skills, but Crufy had all that and so much more. He didnt just go on solo mazy runs against weak defences, he set up the whole team around him, helping his team outplay the opposition and win the match was his thing.
now that is special.
posted on 21/9/17
Defending has largely changed because of the changes in the laws. While I dont think football has changed as much as some people do, tackles are far more harshly judged now. Defending had to change to incorporate the protection given to players increasing over the years. Defenders could no longer throw themselves in and if they took the player out it became a red card offence far far easier. So yes, defending has changed but its largely due to changes in the laws of the game.
Ive even gone as far as to look youtube videos of Messi and Maradonna today to compare them. Maradonna was far better at riding a tackle as if it didnt happen than Messi is. I remember over the years seeing interviews with players who said that they didnt just try to win the ball off Maradonna but tried to foul him to stop him and couldnt. Most of Messi's top skills and goals on youtube have defenders backing off him and ehrn they do out challenges in he certainly does not have the same ability to avoid it as Maradonna.
And yes, Cruyff was a great player but to many didnt have the same wow factor.
posted on 21/9/17
Yes, Maradonna could ride a tackle. Cruyff didn't need too as much,as they never got that close.
If you remeber the Dutch WC teams of 74 and 78, with Cruyff leading them ( apart from two dodgy games!) They played in a totally new way - total football. Which Cruyff went on to develop as he reinvented Barca,and the rest is history. Perhaps you have to be a certain age to remember football before and after Cruyff!
Maradonna and others were great players yes, but that is all. Cruyff was every bit as good - better many say because he invented the moves the others use to look good.
The Cruyff turn is still a 'thing',what moves are named after Maraddona? handball? Ronaldo is famous for..posing and falling over?
To be the THE g.o.a.t you have to be more than just good on youtube, in certain matches..
Cruyff was a genius on the field, an innovator in management and coaching,and a great ambassador for the sport off it.
The rest are just wannabes.
If you want to single out a player on skill only, but still include play making of course, Bergkamp ticks all the boxes.
posted on 22/9/17
Comment Deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 25/9/17
GOAT - a hardy domesticated ruminant mammal that has backward-curving horns and (in the male) a beard. It is kept for its milk and meat, and noted for its lively behaviour.