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cost of life breaking point

so this may be an inflammatory topic, but no doubt its one being discussed in the highest levels of many governments.

At what point does the lockdown need to end because the cost to the "survivors" will outweigh the cost of dead?

in the US last week we had 3m people sign up for unemployment benefits, 5 times higher than the worst week in the 08 crisis.

we (in the US) are facing possibly 45m unemployed, 36m more than pre-covid, in other countries with better socialist governments and supports they might of fared better but in the US this is a terrible thing.

I don't like Donald Trump but his statement of "at some point we have to consider if the cure is worse than the virus" I do genuinely think is worth debate.

I am sure I'll be accused of being selfish, a tory or some other nonsense but those capable of genuine debate; when do you feel the country will have to start thinking about the livelihoods of those left after if this 2, 3 week quarantine proves futile?

posted on 30/3/20

If we’re sticking with this idea of thinking about this as killing others, you also kill others if you do not protect the economy. A member of a family, a member of a friend’s family. Like Robb said, it goes both ways. And it’s important to at least appreciate the need for a balance. If you care about the health of others or as you out it, about killing others, both sides intrinsically have to be considered, no ifs or buts.

posted on 30/3/20

*put it

comment by kneerash-23 Cara Gold (U6876)
posted 2 seconds ago
We're better off being over cautious now and learn that we were. An economy can recover a dead person can't.
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Exactly, a dead person can’t which is why it is important to consider the economy, otherwise you will have more dead people, more people with chronic health conditions, more people with social issues needing state support.

posted on 30/3/20

comment by Robb, the fourth husband of Joe Exotic (U22311)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Ji Sung Park's Cousin - Ole's joy Manticore (U2958)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Kunta Kante (U1641)
posted 1 minute ago
Using the language of ‘killing off’ is also a bit extreme. It is a contagious viral infection that kills people, not anyone else. On the contrary managing this by emotion on an individual level unfortunately isn’t the most beneficial way to tackle it.
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I'm sure the government will find a nice phrase that will make you comfortable.

But... Putting people back to work too early will literally be killing more people off.
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Or having people stay off work for long enough might lead to another period of austerity which will lead to people dying off

It’s a balancing act
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At this stage it seems more like trying to win a game of chicken with no brakes on a one way street. Perhaps it's the game that's the problem here

posted on 30/3/20

comment by Kunta Kante (U1641)
posted 1 minute ago
If we’re sticking with this idea of thinking about this as killing others, you also kill others if you do not protect the economy. A member of a family, a member of a friend’s family. Like Robb said, it goes both ways. And it’s important to at least appreciate the need for a balance. If you care about the health of others or as you out it, about killing others, both sides intrinsically have to be considered, no ifs or buts.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
or we could, maybe, try and use this as a way to find a solution where we don't have to choose between one death over another.

The idea that austerity causes death depends very much on the rules placed by the government in power.

posted on 30/3/20

I suppose really these measures can only be lifted once we are testing in sufficient enough numbers to give us an actual clear picture of the situation - and by testing that includes both antigen and antibody. As it is we're running blindfolded into a battlefield.

Ultimately, that's been my main problem with how this has been handled. I think I'm in the minority who didnt really have a problem when it came to the government's (intentional) dithering in enforcing lockdown measures. But looking back, the lack of preparation beforehand was scandalous. We watched this happen in China or over 2 months, but it wasnt until things got bad in Italy before we decided we needed ventilators and upscale testing. Had we just thought about doing this a bit earlier we'd have a better handle on this situation.

Watched an interesting TED talk from Bill Gates the other day - it was from about 5 years ago after the Ebola outbreak where he basically said we are terribly unprepared for a pandemic. Scary how right he was.

posted on 30/3/20

comment by -bloodred- (U1222)
posted 7 minutes ago
I suppose really these measures can only be lifted once we are testing in sufficient enough numbers to give us an actual clear picture of the situation - and by testing that includes both antigen and antibody. As it is we're running blindfolded into a battlefield.

Ultimately, that's been my main problem with how this has been handled. I think I'm in the minority who didnt really have a problem when it came to the government's (intentional) dithering in enforcing lockdown measures. But looking back, the lack of preparation beforehand was scandalous. We watched this happen in China or over 2 months, but it wasnt until things got bad in Italy before we decided we needed ventilators and upscale testing. Had we just thought about doing this a bit earlier we'd have a better handle on this situation.

Watched an interesting TED talk from Bill Gates the other day - it was from about 5 years ago after the Ebola outbreak where he basically said we are terribly unprepared for a pandemic. Scary how right he was.
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Yes incredibly unprepared. Imagine a new virus a bit more deadly (not hard to imagine as there are many) but with a similar R0 to Covid-19 - society would crumble in a matter of months.

It has never been clearer that the current system is outdated and not fit for purpose.

posted on 30/3/20

comment by -bloodred- (U1222)
posted 2 hours ago
I suppose really these measures can only be lifted once we are testing in sufficient enough numbers to give us an actual clear picture of the situation - and by testing that includes both antigen and antibody. As it is we're running blindfolded into a battlefield.

Ultimately, that's been my main problem with how this has been handled. I think I'm in the minority who didnt really have a problem when it came to the government's (intentional) dithering in enforcing lockdown measures. But looking back, the lack of preparation beforehand was scandalous. We watched this happen in China or over 2 months, but it wasnt until things got bad in Italy before we decided we needed ventilators and upscale testing. Had we just thought about doing this a bit earlier we'd have a better handle on this situation.

Watched an interesting TED talk from Bill Gates the other day - it was from about 5 years ago after the Ebola outbreak where he basically said we are terribly unprepared for a pandemic. Scary how right he was.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

That has been the most shocking thing about all this to me. In a time when we are told terrorism is at an all time level of threat and that biological weapons are possible it turns out our nation's have zero plans in place to combat such situations even for a month.

posted on 30/3/20

comment by Ji Sung Park's Cousin - Ole's joy Manticore (U2958)
posted 3 hours, 15 minutes ago
These thought process are all well and good until a member of your family gets ill, or a member of a friend's family... Then it is no longer interesting and becomes very, very real.

I think too many people are looking at stats and trying to manage this rather than thinking about the consequences of being part of a society that knowingly killed off parts of a generation. This is much easier to do when those numbers are just on a screen, not someone you know.

The more we try and juggle the virus and the economy, the more likely those numbers start involving people you know.
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We knowingly kill millions as a society every year.

posted on 30/3/20

comment by Cinciwolf----JA606 NFL Fantasy Champion 2019----No Emotional Attachments....five long years (U11551)
posted 0 seconds ago
comment by Ji Sung Park's Cousin - Ole's joy Manticore (U2958)
posted 3 hours, 15 minutes ago
These thought process are all well and good until a member of your family gets ill, or a member of a friend's family... Then it is no longer interesting and becomes very, very real.

I think too many people are looking at stats and trying to manage this rather than thinking about the consequences of being part of a society that knowingly killed off parts of a generation. This is much easier to do when those numbers are just on a screen, not someone you know.

The more we try and juggle the virus and the economy, the more likely those numbers start involving people you know.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

We knowingly kill millions as a society every year.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

We have allowed genocides when it doesn't involve oil

posted on 30/3/20

comment by Kunta Kante (U1641)
posted 3 hours, 42 minutes ago
‘Sweden cannot take draconian measures that have a limited impact on the epidemic but knock out the functions of society," stated its public health secretary Johan Carlson last week, saying out loud what so many are thinking: That the horse has already bolted, a vaccine is probably 18 months away, the coming weeks and months will inevitably overwhelm national health systems, but that far more lives and livelihoods will be destroyed as a result of shutting entire industries than lives lost to this virus.

This a disease, now all-but over in the country it hit first, that has killed 25,237 people worldwide over three months. Every year, mosquitoes kill 130,000 people over that same time-frame. Recessions kill too, albeit in a longer, more drawn-out ordeal - and that’s exactly what Sweden is so wary of.

Sweden has currently recorded 3,046 cases of coronavirus; compared to 3,687 in next door Norway. Since Norway entered lockdown two weeks ago, their unemployment rate has quadrupled. In Sweden, bars and restaurants have stayed open - table service only, to limit crowding - only gatherings of more than 50 have been banned, and schools remain in tact for under the 16s. Life there remains relatively normal.’

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/03/27/swedens-resistance-lockdown-raises-questions-tough-approach/#comments

Interesting
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They’re playing Russian roulette.

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