Can't see any articles about this, looks like the refs might actually start to use the pitchside monitor now
https://www.skysports.com/football/news/12040/12024652/fifa-takes-full-control-of-var-in-letter-to-member-associations
FIFA takes full control of VAR
posted on 10/7/20
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 4 minutes ago
welshpoolfan (U7693)
Depends what the 'error' is... obviously.
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Of course, and many of them will be subjective. Off the top if my head, offside and handballs leading to goals (I'm aware that this rule is controversial but it is still currently the rule) are almost always factual decisions.
Even with subjective decisions, the ref just has the option to double check if they aren't sure of something and that is a positive.
posted on 10/7/20
welshpoolfan (U7693)
I don't agree it's a positive - in most cases anyway.
Offside is factual, but I fundamentally disagree that the way it's being used is making the game better or fairer.
The vast majority of VAR decisions are of no value to football - they're making the game worse.
I really don't understand people who don't agree with that and think that identifying a striker offside by 5mm is somehow good for the game.
posted on 10/7/20
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 1 hour, 3 minutes ago
welshpoolfan (U7693)
I don't agree it's a positive - in most cases anyway.
Offside is factual, but I fundamentally disagree that the way it's being used is making the game better or fairer.
The vast majority of VAR decisions are of no value to football - they're making the game worse.
I really don't understand people who don't agree with that and think that identifying a striker offside by 5mm is somehow good for the game.
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It fundamentally makes the game fairer by applying the same standards to both sides. Firstly, people use measurements like 5mm as an exaggeration which doesn't help. The distance that the cameras are from the play means that what looks like mm on screen are usually inches.
That is beside the point entirely though. VAR, for offside at least, is far more consistent than the previous system. This makes the game fairer. If team A has a goal disallowed by the linesman because the striker was 2 inches offside then fair enough, it is the rule. In the second half, team B have a player score from 4 inches offside because the linesman missed it.
You might say ah its only 4 inches so doesn't matter etc, but the fundamental issue is that the two teams have had the laws applied completely differently and so Team B has been put at an unfair disadvantage that didn't apply to their opponents. Its like saying we should roll a dice at the start of a game and if it is a 6 then one team starts with a goal advantage.
VAR doesn't get every decision correct, and it there will always be subjective decisions that people disagree with, but it gets far more correct than the previous system and it therefore makes the game fairer for the teams playing. Teams get relegated and managers get sacked based on these decisions and so it is important that we get as many of them correct as possible.
posted on 10/7/20
welshpoolfan (U7693)
Yeh, I understand your view, but I don't agree.
The difference is whether you consider the spirit and purpose of the law, instead of just the actual law itself.
If the 'offside' makes no tangible difference to the outcome then I don't class it as unfair and therefore I don't believe that VAR has in any way improved the game by overturning that decision.
We're seeing several minutes for delay to make a decision about an incident that has had no material effect on the outcome of play.
It's a really difficult opinion to explain to someone who sees things so black and white.
I'm not saying you're wrong, but I am saying there's an alternative view.
It does make it fairer for blatantly wrong decisions that have affected the game. However, I think that benefit is not worth it for the negatives that VAR has brought to the game.
Teams gets relegated because they've not been good enough over the course of a season and blaming refereeing decisions for relegation has never sat right with me.
posted on 10/7/20
Winston
"If the 'offside' makes no tangible difference to the outcome then I don't class it as unfair and therefore I don't believe that VAR has in any way improved the game by overturning that decision."
Sure, and as soon as someone comes up with a system that let's us see hypothetical future possibilities definitively then this would work.
Unfortunately, it is absolutely impossible to say that a player did not receive a tangible benefit from being offside because as soon as he interferes with play from an offside position it becomes impossible to say what would have happened if he had been onside. Maybe it would have played out the same, bit maybe the defender recovers marginally quicker. Maybe the keeper is able to use that 5 inch difference to close the gap by 5 inches and smother the shot. Maybe the striker is lunging for the ball and scores and of he had been an inch further back his contact would have been worse and the ball dribbles wide.
The only thing that can be said for sure is that they gained the ultimate tangible benefit (a goal in football) and they were offside. In athletics they don't wait to see if the false starter wins the race. In tennis they don't wait to see if the false server wins the point because the rules don't state that these particular rules only apply if the rule-breaker gains the advantage. This is the same as offside.
As for teams getting relegated not being good enough, this is the entire point. They might have been good enough of they had been given a fair chance. To say they weren't good enough when the ref gave the other team an unfair advantage is disingenuous. If a draw is enough to keep you up in the last game, and you conced a goal in the 95th minutes because the ref allows a 4-inch offside to be ignored then under the laws of the game you were good enough to stay up.
posted on 10/7/20
welshpoolfan (U7693)
It's not impossible - it's common sense.
Take the Sheff Utd one earlier this season as an example.
As I say, I understand your view, I just fundamentally disagree.
The desire to make every offside decision perfect is harming the game more than it is benefitting it. That's my opinion.
If you disagree then that is your prerogative of course.
posted on 10/7/20
Just going to add, welshpool, that my original comment you were replying to was not about offsides.
posted on 10/7/20
It is impossible. If someone scores a goal after being 4 inches offside it is absolutely impossible to say with any certainty that the outcome would have been exactly the same if he had been 4 inches (or more) further away from goal when the ball was played. I've given several examples of how it might be different. Opponents have more time to react and catch/close down the player. The player might not be able to reach the ball or if he does it is at a wider angle than otherwise.
You cannot definitely say what would happen and so for simplicity sake they didn't make that part of the law. As the law stands offsode is offside. If this is the law then it is unfair to apply it haphazardly and VAR helps prevent this from happening.
posted on 10/7/20
It's not impossible.
That Sheff Utd 'offside' had absolutely no impact on play. None, whatsoever.
Fixing that decision did not right a wrong. It didn't fix an unfair decision. Left to the decision of the officials, it would have been absolutely fine.
The fact you're arguing that point tells me that common sense is not part of the thinking here, so respectfully, I'm out.
I do appreciate it's very black and white in your mind and I respect that. It pains me a little that you see it the way you do because it's such a sad way to view football, but such is life.
Let's carry on trying to make every decision perfect down to the very last milimetre. And when it's done, you can sit back and wonder why the game has got worse, not better.
Sad times.
Have a nice day.
posted on 10/7/20
"It's not impossible.
That Sheff Utd 'offside' had absolutely no impact on play. None, whatsoever."
If it isn't impossible to prove that the play will have played out exactly as it did without him being offside then please prove it.
"Fixing that decision did not right a wrong. It didn't fix an unfair decision. Left to the decision of the officials, it would have been absolutely fine"
Yes it did. If the goal was offside, and it was allowed to stand then it is unfair to the team that conceded the goal, unless you then allow them to score from an offside position. This is the entire fundamental concept. You have to apply the rules equally to both teams and so if you let Sheffield score an offside goal and don't allow their opponents the same then you are not applying the rules equally and you have created a situation where the opponents have an uphill struggle to get a positive outcome.
My view is simple. The rules of football should be applied equally for fairness. If you think that is a sad way to view football then that in itself is pretty sad.