I think this decision was made a few weeks ago so apologies if I'm going over old ground.
However, I was just reading that offside rules from last year will remain with the only change being the viewer/fan in the ground will no longer be able to see the lines being drawn on. So they're basically doing away with transparency because when they showed what they were doing we could see it was ballacks.
For me, this is madness. If the tech was there to automatically call an offside within 1mm then I'd be fine with this. But it simply isn't. I remember the Firmino one very well, where the ref is literally drawing lines. How is that tech we can rely on with no margin of error?
Another incident I remember well was a league cup game where kane went through against chelsea and got a pen from a potentially offside position. From one angle he looked in line, another one Chelsea showed he looked a yard off. The point being technology like Hawkeye on the goal line is perfectly in line and will have a seriously low margin of error, still images of offside are not perfectly in line and imo should at least have a margin of error.
This implementation of var is also further alienating the fan as they're refusing to show us how they have come to a decision.
Var armpit offsides to stay but lines to go
posted on 28/8/20
comment by Everywhere you go always take Lamela with you. (U7905)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by welshpoolfan (U7693)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Everywhere you go always take Lamela with you. (U7905)
posted 4 minutes ago
I just think the tech should be used as it's meant to be, clear and obvious. The technology is not accurate enough to be so precise on offside. The fact refs are drawing lines on manually proves it's not perfect.
The amount of time it takes to draw these lines is a real issue. I remember the Sheffield united game and nobody had a clue what was going on. It took about 4 mins for them to assert Lundstrum's toe was off by a cm. Even though that decision went for us I was fuming. And if they're not going to even show the fans why the goal is disallowed it's just going to add to the disillusionment in the ground.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The accuracy argument is odd because it is massively more accurate than the alternative system, which is a linesman trying to catch everything in real time. These measures were never going to be 100% accurate but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be used if it is an improvement over the previous system.
I completely agree about showing the decisions in the stadium though.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
To overturn something you need 100% accuracy. If you're not 100% you can't overturn. We're spending 4 minutes to come to a conclusion which is essentially a guess when we're talking millimetres.
I'm all for the obviously wrong calls getting called back but so many are getting disallowed on incredibly marginal calls which cannot be 100% accurate.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Perhaps - but it is as accurate as we can get and it shows the player offside. As the tech evolves it may well improve, bit as I said it is coearly more accurate than the previous system.
Also it is very often not a case of "the decision was incorrect" but a case of "theoretically there is a margin for error which gives a small percentage chance that the decisions might have been incorrect". There is often even less evidence to show it was incorrect than to show it was correct.
posted on 28/8/20
The VAR`s need to be from abroad, from another league, you would hope they will not be bothered about making the mug on the pitch look stupid, there will be no `agreeing with your mate` scenarios.
It may also eliminate some of the clear bias that infests PL football.
posted on 28/8/20
If those silly red and blue lines don't overlap. Offside. If they do let it go. Would be my take if theyre keeping it
posted on 28/8/20
comment by ● Billy The Yidd ● 2020* (U3924)
posted 5 minutes ago
The VAR`s need to be from abroad, from another league, you would hope they will not be bothered about making the mug on the pitch look stupid, there will be no `agreeing with your mate` scenarios.
It may also eliminate some of the clear bias that infests PL football.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeh, preferably from the other side of the world.
As we saw in the Europa League, one of Germany's top referees was biased to Man Utd, so clearly we can't trust European refs either.
We need to find someone who doesn't favour all other 19 Premier League teams over Spurs.
posted on 28/8/20
Comment Deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 28/8/20
comment by welshpoolfan (U7693)
posted 1 hour, 58 minutes ago
comment by פlǝuƃɥᴉs (U19365)
posted 12 minutes ago
I still want to know how it is possible for the ball to hit your armpit without touching your arm.
Your arm would have to be in the most unnatural position possible for the ball to hit your armpit & I still think part of the arm would still be in contact with the ball.
Look at either Firmino or Stirling armpit offsides and there is no possible way the ball can hit the armpit without first hitting the arm.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No but given human anatomy, if your armpit is offside then your shoulder is also offside since it extends beyond your armpit. It is possible for a ball to hit your shoulder without hitting your arm.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Then they should use the shoulder and not the armpit.
My argument was that the ball cannot be in contact with the ARMPIT without being in contact with the arm because it was the ARMPIT that was given offside.
Common sense says that the incidents I mentioned show it would be IMPOSSIBLE for the ball to hit the armpit without touching the arm.
posted on 28/8/20
comment by ● Billy The Yidd ● 2020* (U3924)
posted 1 hour, 2 minutes ago
The VAR`s need to be from abroad, from another league, you would hope they will not be bothered about making the mug on the pitch look stupid, there will be no `agreeing with your mate` scenarios.
It may also eliminate some of the clear bias that infests PL football.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This will probably be the only time I ever agree with you.
I did actually say the exact same thing last November.
https://www.ja606.co.uk/comments/viewAllComments/414529/3#C21439057
posted on 28/8/20
comment by פlǝuƃɥᴉs (U19365)
posted 23 minutes ago
comment by welshpoolfan (U7693)
posted 1 hour, 58 minutes ago
comment by פlǝuƃɥᴉs (U19365)
posted 12 minutes ago
I still want to know how it is possible for the ball to hit your armpit without touching your arm.
Your arm would have to be in the most unnatural position possible for the ball to hit your armpit & I still think part of the arm would still be in contact with the ball.
Look at either Firmino or Stirling armpit offsides and there is no possible way the ball can hit the armpit without first hitting the arm.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No but given human anatomy, if your armpit is offside then your shoulder is also offside since it extends beyond your armpit. It is possible for a ball to hit your shoulder without hitting your arm.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Then they should use the shoulder and not the armpit.
My argument was that the ball cannot be in contact with the ARMPIT without being in contact with the arm because it was the ARMPIT that was given offside.
Common sense says that the incidents I mentioned show it would be IMPOSSIBLE for the ball to hit the armpit without touching the arm.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes they said armpit, which is likely because when they drew the line up from the offsode line, it connected through the armpit (the armpit is closer to the ground than the shoulder).
As mentioned previously, if your armpit is offside then your shoulder will also be offside since it extends beyond the armpit. Since the shoulder is a part of the body that can play the ball it was probably the right call.
Your objection is that they used the word "armpit" but this doesnt mean the decision was incorrect. It means they didn't think through what they were saying when they said it.
posted on 28/8/20
VAR is inherently inaccurate. not massively but enough to make it less than fool prof. Therefore a margin of error needs building in. Giving some one 10mm offside when the inputs that reach this conclusion are not 100% accurate is extremely unsatisfactory.
I also feel that the game and the offside rule is not about such tiny margins. There is not much to gain from being 1cm onside or someones kneecap being offside.
it ruins the game for me and yet this seemingly flawless system cannot be used to decide very basic decisions like whether it's a gk or corner. a team should be allowed x amount of appeals if they think it's their ball.
posted on 29/8/20
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 11 hours, 54 minutes ago
VAR is inherently inaccurate. not massively but enough to make it less than fool prof. Therefore a margin of error needs building in. Giving some one 10mm offside when the inputs that reach this conclusion are not 100% accurate is extremely unsatisfactory.
I also feel that the game and the offside rule is not about such tiny margins. There is not much to gain from being 1cm onside or someones kneecap being offside.
it ruins the game for me and yet this seemingly flawless system cannot be used to decide very basic decisions like whether it's a gk or corner. a team should be allowed x amount of appeals if they think it's their ball.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I mean, the offside rule is clearly about small margins because that's what it says. There have been amendments and changes over the years but never anything that fundamentally changes how the rule measures offside so you have to assume that it is working as intended at the moment.
Also, linesman used to give someone 10mm offside if they saw it, and it was applauded as being a wonderful catch. If the tv replay showed it as offside then nobody was saying it might have had a margin for error. The only major difference is that linesmen would also have absolute howlers that VAR has stamped out.
Your last paragraph is confused. VAR can be used to check corners etc but the lawmakers have deliberately decided not to allow it to be used for such things. This isn't a limitation of VAR it is a choice on how it is implemented.