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An observation last night...

Firstly...

Morning League Leaders...

Anyway, a lot has been said debated about Ole and his tactics. Some say he has non, doesn't have a Plan B, waits to late to make subs, overuses players and all the rest of it.

I agree to some extent with some of those things, (the making changes thing really bugs me) but what I wanted to ask is those that genuinely believe he has no clue about tactics are open to change?

We have come from behind in our solid run a few times to win and its not by playing how we started. Yep, it comes to desire as well as instructions but we are doing it consistently.

Last night showed me that Ole whilst still learning at this level has that tactician in him that could prove to a big difference.

1st half, Burnley were compact, pressing and giving us a torrid time. No space to play, and drawing in constant fouls to stop the flow of the game.

Second half we saw a different team, moving the ball, getting at them, making space that wasn't available in the first half. You could tell they'd been told to go for the kill playing the game faster and moving the ball quicker. I think Ole anticipated the way Burnley would play and had two different plays to break down a well drilled stubborn Burnley team, (set pieces being another example)

Too early to judge or are people able to accept that whilst he hasn't got everything right, tactically he's getting better?

Thoughts?

posted 2 weeks, 1 day ago

comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 13 minutes ago
comment by Elvis: King of Cult (U7425)
posted 3 hours, 30 minutes ago
comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 3 hours, 2 minutes ago
comment by Greg- (U1192)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No one is born with the magic of tactical understanding. It's learnt; it can be studied. Some have greater aptitude for studying tactics.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It can be studied, but to apply it well you would need an observant and strategic mind that is constantly assessing things. This is most likely developed at a young age, and difficult to change as an adult. This is maybe what you meant by 'greater aptitude '. When I say you either have it or don't, I mean from ones early years and nurturing rather than being born with it (similar to leadership skills).

Also mentality comes into it. You would need to be proactive and bold enough to make changes.

If it wasn't too difficult to learn, we would surely have more top tacticians than we do.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Surely ole has that ability.
I mean all he did in his career was sit on the bench and observe weak points in the opposition team, get subbed on and be an absolute legend, time and time again.

Sure he needs to improve areas but he's much better than he was last year so far
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Did anyone observe Ole sat on the bench back then?

Maybe he was reading a magazine, as tablets weren't available yet.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Firstly, yes someone did observe Ole on the bench back then; SAF. He has in the past spoken about why Ole was so dangerous from the bench, explaining that he would focus intently on the game and monitor the oppositions defenders. He would look at there the space was and how he could exploit it when he got on the pitch.

Further to this he has also discussed in the past how Ole was a student of the game:

"My knowledge of Ole as a student of the game is quite clear; every game he played and every training session he took part in he always wrote it all down," Ferguson said. "That gives him a great start because you need dedication and sacrifice to go into management these days. He was a great player and a very nice person. Players will respond to him."

Secondly, you mentioned nuturing an observant/strategic mind. As Ole went to such lengths to take notes during his playing career without any direction to do so, it would suggest to me that he has always had the type of mind.

Finally, I should mention that Ole completed his coaching badges whilst he was still playing football. I think I am right in saying he is the youngest/one of the youngest former players to complete his badges. Or perhaps the only one to complete his badges whilst still playing. I can't quite remember which way it is now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think that was to do with his injuries towards the end of his playing days, so he started preparing for coaching by taking notes and so on.

He obviously takes Fergie as his role model who excelled in man management more than tactics.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No, he took notes throughout his career. Even more so when he was younger. Ole has said that when he got towards the end of his career he focused more on how SAF spoke and his man management.

comment by N2 (U22280)

posted 2 weeks, 1 day ago

comment by Donny The King van de Beek (U10026)
posted 7 minutes ago
Last night wasn’t really about tactical changes. That said, I think Ole’s tactical understanding has always been underrated. We’ve played a lot of different shapes and systems under him over the last two years, that wouldn’t happen under someone that is tactically clueless.

The bigger criticism of his tactics are how conservative in nature they are. But employing conservative tactics doesn’t make someone tactically clueless. Many of the best tacticians - or coaches that are perceived to be - have been conservative and defensive.

There’s a myth that has existed within football for a few years that this kind of football is outdated and tactically clueless. It’s not, and won’t ever be. It’s just not particularly enjoyable to watch, which is a different matter.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We obviously don't know how much input the coaches are having in tactics. Phelan could be the mastermind behind it all.

When you say conservative, are you referring to playing two sitting midfielders, or is it something else?

As for defensive football, I think it was more effective in the 00s than it is now. Probably because there is more of a demand for entertaining football, including from players themselves.

comment by N2 (U22280)

posted 2 weeks, 1 day ago

comment by Elvis: King of Cult (U7425)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 13 minutes ago
comment by Elvis: King of Cult (U7425)
posted 3 hours, 30 minutes ago
comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 3 hours, 2 minutes ago
comment by Greg- (U1192)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No one is born with the magic of tactical understanding. It's learnt; it can be studied. Some have greater aptitude for studying tactics.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It can be studied, but to apply it well you would need an observant and strategic mind that is constantly assessing things. This is most likely developed at a young age, and difficult to change as an adult. This is maybe what you meant by 'greater aptitude '. When I say you either have it or don't, I mean from ones early years and nurturing rather than being born with it (similar to leadership skills).

Also mentality comes into it. You would need to be proactive and bold enough to make changes.

If it wasn't too difficult to learn, we would surely have more top tacticians than we do.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Surely ole has that ability.
I mean all he did in his career was sit on the bench and observe weak points in the opposition team, get subbed on and be an absolute legend, time and time again.

Sure he needs to improve areas but he's much better than he was last year so far
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Did anyone observe Ole sat on the bench back then?

Maybe he was reading a magazine, as tablets weren't available yet.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Firstly, yes someone did observe Ole on the bench back then; SAF. He has in the past spoken about why Ole was so dangerous from the bench, explaining that he would focus intently on the game and monitor the oppositions defenders. He would look at there the space was and how he could exploit it when he got on the pitch.

Further to this he has also discussed in the past how Ole was a student of the game:

"My knowledge of Ole as a student of the game is quite clear; every game he played and every training session he took part in he always wrote it all down," Ferguson said. "That gives him a great start because you need dedication and sacrifice to go into management these days. He was a great player and a very nice person. Players will respond to him."

Secondly, you mentioned nuturing an observant/strategic mind. As Ole went to such lengths to take notes during his playing career without any direction to do so, it would suggest to me that he has always had the type of mind.

Finally, I should mention that Ole completed his coaching badges whilst he was still playing football. I think I am right in saying he is the youngest/one of the youngest former players to complete his badges. Or perhaps the only one to complete his badges whilst still playing. I can't quite remember which way it is now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think that was to do with his injuries towards the end of his playing days, so he started preparing for coaching by taking notes and so on.

He obviously takes Fergie as his role model who excelled in man management more than tactics.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No, he took notes throughout his career. Even more so when he was younger. Ole has said that when he got towards the end of his career he focused more on how SAF spoke and his man management.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is the quote I remember reading:

“He’s been my mentor but I didn’t understand early on he’d be my mentor. Towards the end, maybe the injury in 2003, I was making all the notes what he did in certain situations."

posted 2 weeks, 1 day ago

Ole does have tactics and sometimes it comes off. My main gripe is that he shouldn't be learning on the job at this level. Of course there is always room to improve but the trouble is, when things are not going right, what experience do you have to fall back on?

Most managers, earn their stripes before coming here and that was the main reason I wanted MP as he has a record in the PL.

I think some people have taken this as me being Ole out at all costs which isn't my stance. My stance is Ole out of the right man is available and Ole does not have this squad performing to it's true potential.

IMO with this squad we should always be looking at those top 3 positions. So Ole has us about where we should be but it doesn't really matter until the end of the season and even if he wins it, I will give him credit but I expect an improved playing style next season.

posted 2 weeks, 1 day ago

comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 18 minutes ago
comment by Donny The King van de Beek (U10026)
posted 7 minutes ago
Last night wasn’t really about tactical changes. That said, I think Ole’s tactical understanding has always been underrated. We’ve played a lot of different shapes and systems under him over the last two years, that wouldn’t happen under someone that is tactically clueless.

The bigger criticism of his tactics are how conservative in nature they are. But employing conservative tactics doesn’t make someone tactically clueless. Many of the best tacticians - or coaches that are perceived to be - have been conservative and defensive.

There’s a myth that has existed within football for a few years that this kind of football is outdated and tactically clueless. It’s not, and won’t ever be. It’s just not particularly enjoyable to watch, which is a different matter.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We obviously don't know how much input the coaches are having in tactics. Phelan could be the mastermind behind it all.

When you say conservative, are you referring to playing two sitting midfielders, or is it something else?

As for defensive football, I think it was more effective in the 00s than it is now. Probably because there is more of a demand for entertaining football, including from players themselves.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m sure Phelan has an influence. And funnily enough, it’s the conservative way we play that mirrors a lot of the football we played in Fergie’s final years that I suspect he’s influential in us playing. But he’s still Ole’s assistant, I don’t think he’s the mastermind of all the changes we make as that’s always been the manager’s decision.

I’m talking about how conservative we are in terms of getting players forward, particularly in the box. Playing two sitting midfielders isn’t by design conservative. Bayern have done it for years and are one of the most attacking teams in football.

I don’t agree with your last point. In the 2000’s there was probably more of a demand for attacking football as many were resistant to the more ‘tactical’ defensive strategies that Rafa and Mourinho had success with.

Defensive football can, has and always will be a legitimate and successful way of playing. I don’t like it myself, but the idea it’s outdated is booollocks.

People just say this because Klopp and Pep have had their sides dominating football - though interestingly they’ve adapted their tactics to be a bit more conservative recently.

But they are just facking incredible managers. If Jose Mourinho wasn’t a shell of his former self he’d have a team that can do the same.

Even the current one has Spurs up there with City and Liverpool this season. And at United he finished above ‘modern progressive’ managers like Klopp and Pochettino. People said his tactics were outdated then, as they did when his team finished below Pellegrini and Rodgers’ teams. They weren’t, and they aren’t now. They’re just shiiiit to watch. But that was true when Chelsea dominated the league under him.

posted 2 weeks, 1 day ago

comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 34 minutes ago
comment by Elvis: King of Cult (U7425)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 13 minutes ago
comment by Elvis: King of Cult (U7425)
posted 3 hours, 30 minutes ago
comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 3 hours, 2 minutes ago
comment by Greg- (U1192)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No one is born with the magic of tactical understanding. It's learnt; it can be studied. Some have greater aptitude for studying tactics.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It can be studied, but to apply it well you would need an observant and strategic mind that is constantly assessing things. This is most likely developed at a young age, and difficult to change as an adult. This is maybe what you meant by 'greater aptitude '. When I say you either have it or don't, I mean from ones early years and nurturing rather than being born with it (similar to leadership skills).

Also mentality comes into it. You would need to be proactive and bold enough to make changes.

If it wasn't too difficult to learn, we would surely have more top tacticians than we do.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Surely ole has that ability.
I mean all he did in his career was sit on the bench and observe weak points in the opposition team, get subbed on and be an absolute legend, time and time again.

Sure he needs to improve areas but he's much better than he was last year so far
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Did anyone observe Ole sat on the bench back then?

Maybe he was reading a magazine, as tablets weren't available yet.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Firstly, yes someone did observe Ole on the bench back then; SAF. He has in the past spoken about why Ole was so dangerous from the bench, explaining that he would focus intently on the game and monitor the oppositions defenders. He would look at there the space was and how he could exploit it when he got on the pitch.

Further to this he has also discussed in the past how Ole was a student of the game:

"My knowledge of Ole as a student of the game is quite clear; every game he played and every training session he took part in he always wrote it all down," Ferguson said. "That gives him a great start because you need dedication and sacrifice to go into management these days. He was a great player and a very nice person. Players will respond to him."

Secondly, you mentioned nuturing an observant/strategic mind. As Ole went to such lengths to take notes during his playing career without any direction to do so, it would suggest to me that he has always had the type of mind.

Finally, I should mention that Ole completed his coaching badges whilst he was still playing football. I think I am right in saying he is the youngest/one of the youngest former players to complete his badges. Or perhaps the only one to complete his badges whilst still playing. I can't quite remember which way it is now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think that was to do with his injuries towards the end of his playing days, so he started preparing for coaching by taking notes and so on.

He obviously takes Fergie as his role model who excelled in man management more than tactics.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No, he took notes throughout his career. Even more so when he was younger. Ole has said that when he got towards the end of his career he focused more on how SAF spoke and his man management.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is the quote I remember reading:

“He’s been my mentor but I didn’t understand early on he’d be my mentor. Towards the end, maybe the injury in 2003, I was making all the notes what he did in certain situations."
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Which wound tie in with him taking more notice of SAFs behavior rather than the training/tactical side like he did when he was younger

comment by N2 (U22280)

posted 2 weeks, 1 day ago

comment by Donny The King van de Beek (U10026)

I’m talking about how conservative we are in terms of getting players forward, particularly in the box. Playing two sitting midfielders isn’t by design conservative. Bayern have done it for years and are one of the most attacking teams in football.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree our midfielders don't get in the box enough, and Rashford and Martial don't attack the 6 yard box much.

That said, we usually have our 3 forwards and Bruno high up the pitch (even when the ball is with our defence), and are often light in midfield, failing to control it. My main gripe is our poor passing and movement. I want to see more off the ball movement and quicker passing.

posted 2 weeks, 1 day ago

But they aren’t high up the pitch, as they’re rarely in the box. And it becomes an even bigger issue when one of the sitting midfielders, or the full backs, push up to support the attack and see nobody in the box to pass to.

Yet when we have to go chasing goals and get more men in the box we look all the better for it. The tempo changes and there are more options in attack for the players expected to contribute.

We don’t play like this enough, especially from the start of the games. And it’s not for want of tactical understanding, it’s a conscious, conservative approach.

comment by N2 (U22280)

posted 2 weeks, 1 day ago

Is it a conservative approach though, or just players failing to make runs? When we're chasing, the players then have to make more of an effort to make things happen and start making those runs into the box.

posted 2 weeks, 1 day ago

It’s both. Our forwards aren’t the best off the ball. But we’re consistently playing in a way that doesn’t get enough players forward either.

The reason for this remains to be seen. But it’s an obvious issue with the team.

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