Legacy Fan

comment by welshpoolfan (U7693)
posted 37 minutes ago
comment by Lubo - Super Dooper Liam Cooper (U14008)
posted 6 hours, 21 minutes ago
comment by Dwight K Schrute (U22590)
posted 37 minutes ago
will be funny when the PL back down because they eventually realize all they should care about is THEIR league, which will have the same teams in it.

I dont buy this, "the big 6 will sack the league off for the ESL", they already had a priority of winning the CL makes no odds now. These are professional athletes who want to win, dont tell me Ole or Klopp won't want to be kings of England.

now the top 11 sides in the PL will qualify for Europe (assuming the top 6 are in that 11) which means more chances for teams to experience Europe against the likes of Munich, PSG (till the Fifa World Cup in Qatar is done), Leipzig, Roma, Napoli, Sevilla, Valencia, Dortmund etc

the only losers in this is the CL and they are trying to drag everyone else into it to back them up. but in reality its no change for the PL, in fact it gives more teams a chance, not just 1 team in 19 years making the CL.

Eventually FIFA will bless this league because they won't want their product hurt and UEFA will just look like a big bunch of angry ex husbands who's wives had been telling them for years if they didn't change their ways they were gonna leave them, then angry and upset when it happened
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Of course it doesn't give more teams a chance. Maybe you get more of a chance of reaching a European spot (maybe, because I doubt the breakdown will be as simplistic as you make it out to be), but the fact that six teams (at least one seemingly chosen by lottery) will get a guaranteed windfall of 350m or whatever the extortionate amount is, will absolute cement a hierarchy of six teams, virtually unable to be broken into.

The amount of chance that certain teams have had this season is probably the key driving force behind this decision being made now, as the elite clubs across Europe (and Tottenham), see that, in almost all of the major leagues, more unconventional sides are starting to peg them back. This merely serves as an opportunity to limit that competition and reduce the level of competitivity across these leagues.

Anyone trying to defend the idea needs to give their head a shake, and properly question how much of a football fan they actually are.
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A hierarchy of teams that financially is virtually unbreakable? Have you not watched football over the last 15 years or so? In England, out of approx 60 CL places in that time, only one space has gone to a team outside the big 6. 1 in 60.

As for the elite clubs being pegged back - in Spain the top 3 are all breakaway clubs, and in Italy it is 3 out of 4. In England the top 2 are breakaway teams, and it could be 3 out of 4 depending on Chelsea's game in hand.

I'm not in favour of these proposals, but people have started acting like the last decade has been a utopia of fair play and financial equality which will be ripped away.
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Exactlly, the issue is already here, so why the need to accelerate and perpetuate it. Look at the PL, Arsenal and Spurs on the decrease, both in league position and revenue, Liverpool and Chelsea have both struggled for consistent form this season. Arguably, the only consistent team out of them has been Man United. Something like nine different teams have been top of the PL at some point this season. Nine! The PL has, until City ran away with it, been far more competitive. They have watched Leicester look like cementing their place in the higher echelon, West Ham overtake some of them, Everton overtake some of them, and a number of ambitious, 'big' clubs just behind them (or ahead of them in Arsenal's case).

Seeing it more elsewhere. Lille and Lyon in France. Roma, Lazio and Atalanta in Italy. Sevilla in Spain. This is a way for the classic elite (and Spurs and Atletico) to hold onto their positions, and make it further impossible for those teams to push them. You talk 1 in 60? Well the context behind that number is the 1 broke the PL's money oriented system designed to aid the big six, so, in their eyes, that system needs to be further reinforced. That 1 is also likely to become 2 this year, and very possibly three. There's also a realistic possibility that half of the 'big six' don't qualify for a mainstream European competition through league finish.

The gap is definitely not as present as it was, possibly as a result of covid, or because of smart investments from the chasing teams, and the stagnation of some of the teams above them. Clubs like Real Madrid can talk about 400 million losses, but its a mess that these clubs manufactured for themselves, and now need to find a fundamentally unfair way to bring it back in their favour. Football should be looking to rejoice in how the game is levelling out (mostly), as opposed to looking for further ways to drive the gap wider. Think that would be more likely to attract younger fans back to football, or whatever nonsense Perez said yesterday.

Cheers, very much in the 'wtf is going on' stage at the minute and if I'm honest, have found it fascinating. This is potentially one of the biggest shifts I've ever known in terms of something affecting something very dear to me.

Yeah I think this how it's just going to be. In 25 years time I wonder if we will look back at the Premier league and the sky deal etc and be like "wow, do you remember when we thought that was massive? That was the peak? How naive we were"

These guys will not care if they are hated. They will be thinking "we know you hate it now but trust me, we know better, this is going to be huge".

Oil won't be around forever, its like city's owners got on board with this a long time ago. It won't be about making millions, it will be about making trillions. High quality, 24/7 coverage of the biggest sport in the world and just as oil is becoming obsolete more and more, you just move across... The timing of this all just seems to make so much sense. The London clubs and their stadiums, City being built up to being considered a top club, the Glazers not caring to clear the debt because it will be completely irrelevant down the line. They are thinking big and long term.

Woodward worked for the Bank who helped the Glazers take over did he not? Is this not now the same bank or company or whatever fronting up a ton of cash for this project? This has been in the pipeline for ages.

It's funny, it's almost like it seems like a huge conspiracy that's been in the works for years and Arsenal, Levy, Glazers etc have been having this as goal for over a decade.

Football, as with everything, just keeps evolving and changing. Nothing just stands still from the introduction of European competition, to being allowed to play foreign players (I bet that went down like a sack of potatoes with a lot at the time), to transfer fees to the formation of the Premier league, advertising in football, the champions league, the first £100 million transfer, to the super league.... It's just been getting more and more gross, just like so many other industries.

We will pine for the old days, much like people pine for vinyl or 'proper' film production. Netflix, Amazon, Facebook, Google, huge global brands taking away what once was. Supermarkets replacing good old local butchers.

Communities are different now. A street isn't the community, you have lots of little communities all co-existing. It's the beauty of multi culturalism but it does mean that a unified idea of what football is just isn't the same anymore The world is changing, the audience isn't working class white people in Britain, it's now across cultures and continents.

I may not like it but more and more I'm accepting the reality of the situation and I know I won't jsut stop watching football so I may as well hitch along. Who knows? Maybe ticket prices etc become dirt cheap, gate receipts are no longer relevant. It's the streaming money
, merchandise etc and it hugely outstrips gate receipts.

Make it super accessible, Rory on the kick off put it well. They don't care about 40,000 in Stamford Bridge and this being same 40,000 year after year, decade after decade. For every one 'legacy' fan who abandons their seat, there will be 10 new age fans who will snap up that 20 quid seat. They will buy the foam finger and a programme, probably a shirt as well and the next week, that seat will be occupied by someone else who does the same thing.

I'm more and more thinking it's going to all change way more than I was giving it credit for yesterday. I wonder if we will look back, if it all goes ahead, and sort of laugh a little at the outcry. It will be normal then and we'll have adjusted, just like we have with so so many other things around us.

comment by The Post Nearly Legacy Fan (U1270)
posted 42 minutes ago
This is the second wave of killing off the 'legacy fan'. If football was the people's game, predominantly working class, that all went with all-seater stadiums and ridiculous ticket prices. It's hard enough to fund going to the games if you're on a decent wage, never mind if you're not. We weren't well off when I was a kid, but you could afford to get in, no chance for a huge part of the population now.

They'll have noted all that, seen that the growth in the games wasn't affected by culling the working class and concluded they can push through the next stage without killing the golden goose. Games at neutral venues, weekends with three back to back games at the same stadium, all that crap.

They'll argue they're adapting to society changing and they're just positioning football to survive, and the next generation won't know any different. Football forums will be full of nostalgia for local games in national leagues in the future, just like we're nostalgic about the terraces in the 70's and 80's now.

The game's gone as we knew it unless they use this opportunity to heavily regulate it in terms of agents, wages, transfers, TV deals, ticket prices, ownership etc... all the poison that's led to this.
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Yeah I think this is it. I thought the same thing last night about terraces etc. The game has been moving away from a working man's game for ages.

To be honest, if the domestic system becomes like the college basketball equivalent and starts to be seems s 'true' football, with investment into young players and these players being the ones who play domestically, as well as things like women's teams forming and being invested in etc etc, I can see a way it ends up being a good project. That presumes ALOT though and I've no idea it will go that way but seperate broadcasting can be done for the league etc and it will be more of a community game at that level.
. Maybe even to the point where some united fans in the UK don't watch the super league at all but still turn up to the ground on a Saturday to watch the new age answer to the under 23s.

That could happen, the game at that age bracket gets upped massively. We play a team of 17 - 22 year old high talented players in the league and these get the investment and facilities to try and bring on a new generation of footballer and everyone's end game is get to the super league.

comment by welshpoolfan (U7693)
posted 1 hour, 3 minutes ago
comment by Lubo - Super Dooper Liam Cooper (U14008)
posted 6 hours, 21 minutes ago
comment by Dwight K Schrute (U22590)
posted 37 minutes ago
will be funny when the PL back down because they eventually realize all they should care about is THEIR league, which will have the same teams in it.

I dont buy this, "the big 6 will sack the league off for the ESL", they already had a priority of winning the CL makes no odds now. These are professional athletes who want to win, dont tell me Ole or Klopp won't want to be kings of England.

now the top 11 sides in the PL will qualify for Europe (assuming the top 6 are in that 11) which means more chances for teams to experience Europe against the likes of Munich, PSG (till the Fifa World Cup in Qatar is done), Leipzig, Roma, Napoli, Sevilla, Valencia, Dortmund etc

the only losers in this is the CL and they are trying to drag everyone else into it to back them up. but in reality its no change for the PL, in fact it gives more teams a chance, not just 1 team in 19 years making the CL.

Eventually FIFA will bless this league because they won't want their product hurt and UEFA will just look like a big bunch of angry ex husbands who's wives had been telling them for years if they didn't change their ways they were gonna leave them, then angry and upset when it happened
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Of course it doesn't give more teams a chance. Maybe you get more of a chance of reaching a European spot (maybe, because I doubt the breakdown will be as simplistic as you make it out to be), but the fact that six teams (at least one seemingly chosen by lottery) will get a guaranteed windfall of 350m or whatever the extortionate amount is, will absolute cement a hierarchy of six teams, virtually unable to be broken into.

The amount of chance that certain teams have had this season is probably the key driving force behind this decision being made now, as the elite clubs across Europe (and Tottenham), see that, in almost all of the major leagues, more unconventional sides are starting to peg them back. This merely serves as an opportunity to limit that competition and reduce the level of competitivity across these leagues.

Anyone trying to defend the idea needs to give their head a shake, and properly question how much of a football fan they actually are.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

A hierarchy of teams that financially is virtually unbreakable? Have you not watched football over the last 15 years or so? In England, out of approx 60 CL places in that time, only one space has gone to a team outside the big 6. 1 in 60.

As for the elite clubs being pegged back - in Spain the top 3 are all breakaway clubs, and in Italy it is 3 out of 4. In England the top 2 are breakaway teams, and it could be 3 out of 4 depending on Chelsea's game in hand.

I'm not in favour of these proposals, but people have started acting like the last decade has been a utopia of fair play and financial equality which will be ripped away.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Agree with that.

It's just what the clubs perceive to be the next step forward. It's all centered around money, but it has been for the last 30 years anyway.

@lubo I get what you're saying but they are perpetuating it because this is what they want.

Getting my tin foil hat on, are arsenal really going down hill? Or did they realise around 2006/2007 that this sheet was changing. Start thinking long term, get the stadium, keep things ticking over, just don't get relegated. What's 10 years of not really competing when you then have 30 years of huge revenue and a massive new product?

Arsnrka fans have been kicking off about lack of investment for years and it makes sense. Why bother? That's all going away anyway, why spent my own money on competing in a league that just won't matter? Bide my time, get to the super league and then we can use the trillions to not only be rich on a whole new level but then all the investment, salary, facilities etc gets paid for by the product.

I'm starting to think they've been more clever than we've been giving them credit for.

From the perspective of a Glazer or Kroenke is it not - Boot teams of of the cl? Oooook, we care not one bit, see ya! The cl will one day be a past competition. We don't want your champions league, it won't be remembered in 20 years.

Dock us points, we don't care. We're not bothered about past titles and sentiment, we are going to make more money than anybody in football even dreamed of. We're moving forward with this product and it will sell, you will eventually cave and get on board. That is life.

It may suck donkey balls but it's how the world is now. I don't thin sentiment and OG fans kicking off, none of it will matter and nearly all of us will be lapping up this product on ten years. As much as people say they won't, it will be flipping everywhere, it will be huge. I can't see how you could not help yourself and end up watching. Maybe for a year or two people dig their heels in, I don't see that it will ultimately matter.

"football is nothing without the fans" it's absolutely right but fans aren't people born within 20 miles of the ground anymore. There are very passionate fans alma round the globe and we may think our reasoning for following our club is superior but that's all just noise, it doesn't matter. Think it all we like, it doesn't change the fact that these people all love the sport too, love the club, just differently or for different reasons. You can't just invalidate them as fans because they are foreign, the world doesn't think like that anymore.

The Glazers won't care if its a tourist from Japan or 68 year old Bob who has been going to games for years. Whichever fills the seat is fine and in fact, the fan from Japan will readily and actively spend a ton more on the club than our Bob will.

comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 7 hours, 38 minutes ago
It's a bit like that other stupid term 'diddums'.
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or the term you call those that support Man United currently...

'Brown nosers'. How stupid is that, when you think about it?

comment by RB&W (U21434)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 7 hours, 38 minutes ago
It's a bit like that other stupid term 'diddums'.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
or the term you call those that support Man United currently...

'Brown nosers'. How stupid is that, when you think about it?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Legacy Fans vs McFans, that's the new one

comment by TheFoxOutsideTheBox (U20459)
posted 34 minutes ago
@lubo I get what you're saying but they are perpetuating it because this is what they want.

Getting my tin foil hat on, are arsenal really going down hill? Or did they realise around 2006/2007 that this sheet was changing. Start thinking long term, get the stadium, keep things ticking over, just don't get relegated. What's 10 years of not really competing when you then have 30 years of huge revenue and a massive new product?

Arsnrka fans have been kicking off about lack of investment for years and it makes sense. Why bother? That's all going away anyway, why spent my own money on competing in a league that just won't matter? Bide my time, get to the super league and then we can use the trillions to not only be rich on a whole new level but then all the investment, salary, facilities etc gets paid for by the product.

I'm starting to think they've been more clever than we've been giving them credit for.

From the perspective of a Glazer or Kroenke is it not - Boot teams of of the cl? Oooook, we care not one bit, see ya! The cl will one day be a past competition. We don't want your champions league, it won't be remembered in 20 years.

Dock us points, we don't care. We're not bothered about past titles and sentiment, we are going to make more money than anybody in football even dreamed of. We're moving forward with this product and it will sell, you will eventually cave and get on board. That is life.

It may suck donkey balls but it's how the world is now. I don't thin sentiment and OG fans kicking off, none of it will matter and nearly all of us will be lapping up this product on ten years. As much as people say they won't, it will be flipping everywhere, it will be huge. I can't see how you could not help yourself and end up watching. Maybe for a year or two people dig their heels in, I don't see that it will ultimately matter.

"football is nothing without the fans" it's absolutely right but fans aren't people born within 20 miles of the ground anymore. There are very passionate fans alma round the globe and we may think our reasoning for following our club is superior but that's all just noise, it doesn't matter. Think it all we like, it doesn't change the fact that these people all love the sport too, love the club, just differently or for different reasons. You can't just invalidate them as fans because they are foreign, the world doesn't think like that anymore.

The Glazers won't care if its a tourist from Japan or 68 year old Bob who has been going to games for years. Whichever fills the seat is fine and in fact, the fan from Japan will readily and actively spend a ton more on the club than our Bob will.
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Interesting to know how full a stadium can get from just tourist fans, week-in-week out. You're right in saying that they don't care who the fans paying for things are, they see it as extra sources of income that will earn them a lot of money. I'm not sure it will quite work out as black and white as that. Already hearing rumours that two clubs are wavering (believed to be City and Chelsea) after seeing the reaction to it. Clubs know that regardless of income streams, what happens with UEFA, FIFA and their domestic leagues will be important. Cutting ties with all of these is not as easy for them as just doing it.

I think, in my view, the ESL is a very good hypothetical idea from the perspective of moneymakers and the like, but in the actuality of football it just won't be possible to implement it. Its already undermined by the rejections they've had (pretty clear they wanted to announce 15 clubs but they couldn't get three others to agree, know they were turned down by German clubs and Porto already), and will be even more so if clubs start to look for ways of leaving it.

I suspect more likely is we will be looking back on this in a couple seasons time with the football pyramid ostensibly the same, remembering that funny week or two where it looked like everything might change.

comment by RB&W (U21434)
posted 5 hours, 46 minutes ago
comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 7 hours, 38 minutes ago
It's a bit like that other stupid term 'diddums'.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
or the term you call those that support Man United currently...

'Brown nosers'. How stupid is that, when you think about it?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Never really used that term myself. It did all get quite silly in the end.

comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 44 minutes ago
comment by RB&W (U21434)
posted 5 hours, 46 minutes ago
comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 7 hours, 38 minutes ago
It's a bit like that other stupid term 'diddums'.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
or the term you call those that support Man United currently...

'Brown nosers'. How stupid is that, when you think about it?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Never really used that term myself. It did all get quite silly in the end.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Im not convinced we are the end yet.