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If Southgate were to win the Euros...

I think that we can all agree that given the route that we have had to the finals as well as where we have played our games, Southgate has pretty much delivered to expectation.

The only real challenge was Germany and, in truth, it was probably our best opportunity to beat them in a very long time! Even then, the result was not so cut and dry. If it wasn't for an uncharacteristic 1 on 1 miss by Mueller, we could have easily been dragged into extra time or even penalties.

However, after coming through that game, the minimum we should have expected was to make it to the final given the route that unfolded in front of us to the final.

Southgate has been by far the best manager that England have had this century. He plays players based on the system that he wants and he has a vision of how he wants to play and that seems to have got through to the players. That said, I don't think he is above "in house politics", and he does have his favourites as was suggested by his decision to take off Grealish ahead of Sterling yesterday, even though Sterling had played much more of the game.

Based on this, my question is simple. Has Gareth done enough to go down as one of the all time great England managers based on what he has done already or does he have to win the competition?

I am of the view that he has had 2 very favourable routes in both tournaments that he has faced and in truth, the only impressive win that we have had under him in the last 4 years has been the win against Germany a couple of weeks back.

So what the the JA Nation think? Are we caught up in the hype or is he one of the greatest ever?

@Admin, please multiboard.

posted on 9/7/21

comment by Irishred (U2539)
posted 42 seconds ago
comment by Robbing Hoody - Legacy Fan (U6374)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by sandy, golden boot winner fa cup 1901 (U20567)
posted 45 minutes ago
comment by Robbing Hoody - Legacy Fan (U6374)
posted 2 hours, 7 minutes ago
Germany have Sane and Gnabry on the bench ffs.

Goretzka would walk into our midfield and pretty sure Kroos would get minutes.

I could go on to the likes of Kimmich and Neuer.

England have the grand total of one world class player and bild up players like Saka, Mount and Grealish didn't even hot double figures in the league but are supposed to be world beaters. Half the others don't even play in Europe.

It's a complete nonsense.
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Sane is rubbish, a complete headless chicken and Gnabry only turned up against Spurs.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

And you wonder why those Spurs posters have left
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Good luck on Sunday
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Nice one!

It'll be great. Win or lose it's been a proper festival of football.

posted on 9/7/21

Whilst you're correct that the German players are still quality, it's not the individuals which is the issue, it's the team and likely the issues regarding the squad for the Germans. Players of that quality should not be losing 6-0 to Spain or 2-1 to Macedonia for instance. I know these kind of freak results do happen of course, but it signals a bigger, underlying issue for that team. They are all good players, but they do not work as well as a team anymore as they did. For example, the fact Joachim Low was outgoing may have had an effect on the morale of the players.

posted on 9/7/21

comment by Robbing Hoody - Legacy Fan (U6374)
posted 39 seconds ago
comment by Irishred (U2539)
posted 42 seconds ago
comment by Robbing Hoody - Legacy Fan (U6374)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by sandy, golden boot winner fa cup 1901 (U20567)
posted 45 minutes ago
comment by Robbing Hoody - Legacy Fan (U6374)
posted 2 hours, 7 minutes ago
Germany have Sane and Gnabry on the bench ffs.

Goretzka would walk into our midfield and pretty sure Kroos would get minutes.

I could go on to the likes of Kimmich and Neuer.

England have the grand total of one world class player and bild up players like Saka, Mount and Grealish didn't even hot double figures in the league but are supposed to be world beaters. Half the others don't even play in Europe.

It's a complete nonsense.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Sane is rubbish, a complete headless chicken and Gnabry only turned up against Spurs.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

And you wonder why those Spurs posters have left
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Good luck on Sunday
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Nice one!

It'll be great. Win or lose it's been a proper festival of football.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think the Sasna will win (Thats Irish for England). I backed Italy at 10/1 at the start of the tournament but I just think your boys name is on it.

I watched the game v Denmark and in fairness from minute 46 onwards only one team was trying to win the game.

If you do win it, good luck and well done and regardless you will certainly be a strong contender in Qatar.

I just hope we can make the party

posted on 9/7/21

Lots of England fans seem to be hostages of past failures. Can't accept that the team is in the final on merit. Looking for reasons to try and falsely prove they don't deserve to be there.

Just accept and embrace the situation England have deservedly got themselves into. Any perceived luck/favour England have had is no different to that which others before them have had down the years. Tournament football.

posted on 9/7/21

Irish:

I think it's pretty much 50/50.

We have the pace, they have the quality in midfield.

The way each manager sets up to combat the others strength will be key in particular I reckon.

posted on 9/7/21

comment by Robbing Hoody - Legacy Fan (U6374)
posted 3 minutes ago
England fans have forever overrated their own players and looked down on foreign leagues.

Saka 6 league goals
Grealish 6 league goals
Foden 8 league goals

Suddenly world class. Tbf I agree with a lot of what you've written on here but when you get to the point you're agreeing with Sandy it should probably sound an alarm of some kind.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I also feel like it's almost working in the inverse now though in some regard.

Yes, those stats are not "that" impressive and they obviously aren't world class players or anything, which I have never said, but we have to look at it in regards to who they are comparing to.

I'll use your previous example (on a separate thread) of when you said Ferran Torres would get into the England team, based on what? He's not been any better/worse than the likes of Foden and Sterling and is arguably behind both of them in the pecking order for Pep (yes I know Torres operates from the right and those two from the left but I mean in regards to who Pep would rather have in his team).

If we are looking at stats alone as well, there seems to be an agreement that Sterling has had a "disappointing" season for City, yet he has still knocked in 10 PL goals and provided 8 assists whereas Torres has 7 and 2 respectively. Like I say, I know they operate on different wings, but looking at them both as "wingers", I don't see where Torres gets into the England team above the others we have in the front 3 behind Kane, that's based off just stats alone.

I know it's not always the case, for example I don't think Grealish is world class and I think it's exaggerated to say that he is, just my opinion, but there is very little to doubt we have one of the best squads in the Euro's and it's no fluke/good route that has meant we have reached the WC Semi's and now the Euro's final in the last 3 years.

posted on 9/7/21

comment by Barf Vader (U15867)
posted 4 minutes ago
Lots of England fans seem to be hostages of past failures. Can't accept that the team is in the final on merit. Looking for reasons to try and falsely prove they don't deserve to be there.

Just accept and embrace the situation England have deservedly got themselves into. Any perceived luck/favour England have had is no different to that which others before them have had down the years. Tournament football.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Exactly.

posted on 9/7/21

comment by Robbing Hoody - Legacy Fan (U6374)
posted 3 minutes ago
Irish:

I think it's pretty much 50/50.

We have the pace, they have the quality in midfield.

The way each manager sets up to combat the others strength will be key in particular I reckon.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

posted on 9/7/21

comment by JustYourAverageFan (U21016)
posted 18 seconds ago
comment by Robbing Hoody - Legacy Fan (U6374)
posted 3 minutes ago
England fans have forever overrated their own players and looked down on foreign leagues.

Saka 6 league goals
Grealish 6 league goals
Foden 8 league goals

Suddenly world class. Tbf I agree with a lot of what you've written on here but when you get to the point you're agreeing with Sandy it should probably sound an alarm of some kind.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I also feel like it's almost working in the inverse now though in some regard.

Yes, those stats are not "that" impressive and they obviously aren't world class players or anything, which I have never said, but we have to look at it in regards to who they are comparing to.

I'll use your previous example (on a separate thread) of when you said Ferran Torres would get into the England team, based on what? He's not been any better/worse than the likes of Foden and Sterling and is arguably behind both of them in the pecking order for Pep (yes I know Torres operates from the right and those two from the left but I mean in regards to who Pep would rather have in his team).

If we are looking at stats alone as well, there seems to be an agreement that Sterling has had a "disappointing" season for City, yet he has still knocked in 10 PL goals and provided 8 assists whereas Torres has 7 and 2 respectively. Like I say, I know they operate on different wings, but looking at them both as "wingers", I don't see where Torres gets into the England team above the others we have in the front 3 behind Kane, that's based off just stats alone.

I know it's not always the case, for example I don't think Grealish is world class and I think it's exaggerated to say that he is, just my opinion, but there is very little to doubt we have one of the best squads in the Euro's and it's no fluke/good route that has meant we have reached the WC Semi's and now the Euro's final in the last 3 years.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think the problem I have with this view (and I'm not inherently disagreeing with you), is that its all a bit revisionist. Saying things like "oh, it's a poor German team that England should beat" (not necessarily you in particular, but a generalised view), is not what what people were saying before the game. Before the game it was all about weight of expectation, the legacy of previous meetings, ghosts of the past etc, and when they overcome those, it changes to being about how they should have won all along, because Germany "aren't that good".

Same with the team. I saw lots of posts on here criticising the squad selection, criticising certain players (Phillips, Sterling, Maguire, Pickford et al), who have all had great performances. Now, after that is the case, people are saying that the squad was great the whole time and a final was the least we should be expecting. I doubt that all these people held these views before the tournament (not specifically you, again).

In this manner, the England team can't win, because if they do well then its either the least we should expect, or we had an easy run, and if we do badly they get absolutely lambasted and berated. Lose/lose, perpetuated by a false narrative.

posted on 9/7/21

comment by Lubo - Struijk of Genius (U14008)
posted 43 minutes ago
comment by JustYourAverageFan (U21016)
posted 18 seconds ago
comment by Robbing Hoody - Legacy Fan (U6374)
posted 3 minutes ago
England fans have forever overrated their own players and looked down on foreign leagues.

Saka 6 league goals
Grealish 6 league goals
Foden 8 league goals

Suddenly world class. Tbf I agree with a lot of what you've written on here but when you get to the point you're agreeing with Sandy it should probably sound an alarm of some kind.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I also feel like it's almost working in the inverse now though in some regard.

Yes, those stats are not "that" impressive and they obviously aren't world class players or anything, which I have never said, but we have to look at it in regards to who they are comparing to.

I'll use your previous example (on a separate thread) of when you said Ferran Torres would get into the England team, based on what? He's not been any better/worse than the likes of Foden and Sterling and is arguably behind both of them in the pecking order for Pep (yes I know Torres operates from the right and those two from the left but I mean in regards to who Pep would rather have in his team).

If we are looking at stats alone as well, there seems to be an agreement that Sterling has had a "disappointing" season for City, yet he has still knocked in 10 PL goals and provided 8 assists whereas Torres has 7 and 2 respectively. Like I say, I know they operate on different wings, but looking at them both as "wingers", I don't see where Torres gets into the England team above the others we have in the front 3 behind Kane, that's based off just stats alone.

I know it's not always the case, for example I don't think Grealish is world class and I think it's exaggerated to say that he is, just my opinion, but there is very little to doubt we have one of the best squads in the Euro's and it's no fluke/good route that has meant we have reached the WC Semi's and now the Euro's final in the last 3 years.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think the problem I have with this view (and I'm not inherently disagreeing with you), is that its all a bit revisionist. Saying things like "oh, it's a poor German team that England should beat" (not necessarily you in particular, but a generalised view), is not what what people were saying before the game. Before the game it was all about weight of expectation, the legacy of previous meetings, ghosts of the past etc, and when they overcome those, it changes to being about how they should have won all along, because Germany "aren't that good".

Same with the team. I saw lots of posts on here criticising the squad selection, criticising certain players (Phillips, Sterling, Maguire, Pickford et al), who have all had great performances. Now, after that is the case, people are saying that the squad was great the whole time and a final was the least we should be expecting. I doubt that all these people held these views before the tournament (not specifically you, again).

In this manner, the England team can't win, because if they do well then its either the least we should expect, or we had an easy run, and if we do badly they get absolutely lambasted and berated. Lose/lose, perpetuated by a false narrative.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I gauge what you are saying and agree to a degree about how the narrative changes when something goes right for England, because that's happened as well really.

Ultimately, pre-tournament views are going to change to the current time. Did I expect England to reach the final? No. Did I once I saw our potential route to the final? Yes. Opinions are naturally going to change throughout, but I understand you're point about a consistently changing narrative, be it good or bad.

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