or to join or start a new Discussion

11 Comments
Article Rating 5 Stars

Points deduction

So the Administrators are appealing the 12 point deduction on the grounds of Force Majeure. I assume they have taken proper advice but are they right to take the risk, never mind the costs of the appeal?

If the EFL was the appellate body we would stand no chance but independent arbitrators should have no axe to grind. Wigan failed in their attempt to plead FM (ie covid) and the reasoning behind the rejection (at least as reported by Derbys Live) suggests that Derby's case will be different and could succeed.

I ask this question. If FM is accepted as the sole reason for going into admin would it not follow that there should be no points deduction at all? A reduction to say 6 points would surely be irrelevant. How can justice be served by a deduction for something beyond control?

One possible worry is that even independent arbitrators could be concerned about setting a precedent in case other clubs go into admin. On the other hand no-one is going to opt for administration just for the sake of it.

To conclude my rambling I would say first that if the appeal succeeds then the EFL, from pure bloody-mindedness, will go for the maximum deduction allowed for breach of FFP. The same could well apply if the appeal fails. So will we be any better off? After all you would hope that if we accepted the 12 points then there should be some mitigation against a further heavy deduction re FFP. But that boat has now sailed. Secondly could it be that there is a new owner in the pipeline who would be acceptable to the administrators and who is encouraging them in this appeal? Whatever, we are all now faced with yet more uncertainty and delay.

posted 1 week, 1 day ago

If anything I still think we stand a chance of getting additional points as compensation for the trouble the EFL have caused us over the FFP situation, unfair embargoes and such. We have no grounds at all to appeal the administration penalty unless it can be proved that situation was forced by the EFL acting in bad faith over the other penalties.

posted 1 week, 1 day ago

Force Majeure only applies where the cause of the particular problem is unforeseen and unavoidable. I don't think either of those two criteria could be applied to Derby's situation. We were in deep doodoo before the pandemic.
I remember two Force Majeures when I was at work. One where we sold a fertiliser plant to Iraq which we delivered just as Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait and the other a delacquering plant we delivered to Bulgaria when the communist government fell. Pretty bad luck on the company I worked for and me in particular because I was soon out of a job.

comment by Scouse (U9675)

posted 1 week, 1 day ago

comment by Spart-Derby really are the best says red dog. (U4603)
posted 33 minutes ago
Force Majeure only applies where the cause of the particular problem is unforeseen and unavoidable. I don't think either of those two criteria could be applied to Derby's situation. We were in deep doodoo before the pandemic.
I remember two Force Majeures when I was at work. One where we sold a fertiliser plant to Iraq which we delivered just as Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait and the other a delacquering plant we delivered to Bulgaria when the communist government fell. Pretty bad luck on the company I worked for and me in particular because I was soon out of a job.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
There is one common denominator there though.

posted 1 week, 1 day ago

Administators are hard-nosed buggers. They don't do stuff on a whim. They've come in and made a few people redundant so they aren't going to chuck away a few hundred grand in legal costs on a frivolous matter. They must think they have a decent case. Unless Morris has said he will fund the appeal of course in which case maybe the administators think there is nothing to lose by having a bit of a punt at it.

I suppose the argument would be that Morris was able to cover the running costs and service the debt prior to Covid. With the loss of income that Covid caused, and the absence of the 8 million relief money that other clubs took advantage of, administration became inevitable because Morris could no longer bridge the financial gap. Therefore Covid was the cause of administration. I don't know if that would be enough to win the appeal, but I think that's the argument.

comment by Peeder (U1684)

posted 1 week, 1 day ago

I think we have a very good chance of the administration points deduction being reduced IF the extrapolation of the last 6 years accounts shows a clear correlation in income dropping to coincide with Covid-19
to a level where the impact of that drop caused sufficient cash flow issues that put us in a position where we had no choice other than to enter administration.
This has nothing to do with FFP, which looks only at losses.
It's a "simple" cash flow analysis.

posted 1 week, 1 day ago

comment by lastapostleofvidal (U1491)
posted 45 minutes ago
Administators are hard-nosed buggers. They don't do stuff on a whim. They've come in and made a few people redundant so they aren't going to chuck away a few hundred grand in legal costs on a frivolous matter. They must think they have a decent case. Unless Morris has said he will fund the appeal of course in which case maybe the administators think there is nothing to lose by having a bit of a punt at it.

I suppose the argument would be that Morris was able to cover the running costs and service the debt prior to Covid. With the loss of income that Covid caused, and the absence of the 8 million relief money that other clubs took advantage of, administration became inevitable because Morris could no longer bridge the financial gap. Therefore Covid was the cause of administration. I don't know if that would be enough to win the appeal, but I think that's the argument.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think MM himself used that argument, Vidal, during his interview with Ed Dawes.

posted 1 week ago

Sheffield Wednesday were looking good to escape relegation until they appealed won back 6 points. They went down hill from there.

posted 1 week ago

----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think MM himself used that argument, Vidal, during his interview with Ed Dawes.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He did indeed but having put the club into administration he is not in a position to be able to appeal it himself as he is no longer responsible. Hence why the administrators can. Whilst we may have been in trouble before COVID, it might not have been serious enough to warrant an administration. So if, as Mel claimed, the revenue drop from COVID can be demonstrated to have been sufficient to have pushed the club much closer to a need for administration then there might be a chance (not sure how they do this though).

Mel did try to weather the COVID storm and perhaps it's reasonable that he could not have been expected to know how long he would have to do this for (Force Majeure). Wigan did not really attempt to ride it.

The Wigan situation was also different as their administration happened much earlier in COVID times and there were some other circumstances relating to it with new owners instantly saying they won't invest another penny, which is weird for a new owner, and even rumours of some sort of bet placed by said owner that Wigan would be relegated and which required the adminstration in order to reduce the points sufficiently. It was also just 4 weeks after the latest takeover, so very strange. The COVID argument was probably just tagged on by the appealers as a convenient and opportunistic extra.

I also highly doubt Derby's administrators took this decision lightly either so they must feel confident. But even if successful I do not think we will get all 12 points back, perhaps 6. But even that would be a win.

comment by Scouse (U9675)

posted 1 week ago

.......... I do not think we will get all 12 points back, perhaps 6. But even that would be a win.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Two wins even.

posted 1 week ago

comment by Scouse (U9675)
posted 8 minutes ago
.......... I do not think we will get all 12 points back, perhaps 6. But even that would be a win.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Two wins even.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It’s a classic 6 pointer …. 😆

Sign in if you want to comment
RATE THIS ARTICLE
Rate Breakdown
5
1 Vote
4
0 Votes
3
0 Votes
2
0 Votes
1
0 Votes

Average Rating: 5 from 1 vote

ARTICLE STATS
Day
Article Ranking349/500
Article Views1
Average Time(mins)0
Total Time(mins)0
Month
Article Ranking319/500
Article Views623
Average Time(mins)2.2
Total Time(mins)910.3