Another match gone, another sending off, another injury, another defeat.
Some blame Bielsa for where we are, others blame Marsch. Frankly, it doesn't matter who was/is in charge. We are where we are because we deserve to be.
Let's look at some facts.
Bielsa presided over the first 25 PL matches of this season.
He was sacked after a run of 6 defeats in 7, the other being a draw, and a record concession of 20 goals in a month. Any other manager/coach would have been dismissed after a run like that, and you could argue deservedly so. Yes, there were injuries to key players, some long term, and as many as 6 being unavailable at a time. Such are the perils of a small, imbalanced squad and a training regime that was intensely. physically demanding.
It's worth reminding ourselves of how the bottom of the table looked when Bielsa was sacked after the defeat against Tottenham in February (apologies for the primitive construction of the table):
________________P_______GD____PTS
16. Leeds..........26 ........-31.......23
17. Everton.......24.........-13.......22
18. Burnley........24..........-8........21
19. Watford.......26.........-22.......19
20. Norwich.......26........-40........17
Despite their own horrendous form at the time, it was statistically possible for both Everton and Burnley to dump us in the bottom 3 then.
Had they gained maximum points from their games in hand, the projected table would then have looked like this: -
_______________P____PTS
16. Everton ......26.....28
17. Burnley.......26.....26
18. Leeds.........26.....23
So the board acted and brought in Jesse Marsch. He had 12 matches to engineer a change in fortunes with the same limited resources that had taken us to the brink of the relegation zone.
Tonight, with 2 games left to play, this is how the table looks now: -
________________P_______GD____PTS
16. Everton.......35 .........-19......36
17. Burnley........35.........-17......34
18. Leeds..........36.........-38......34
19. Watford.......36..........-38......23
20. Norwich.......36..........-56......21
If Everton and Burnley win their game in hand then the table will look the same as the projected table above in terms of points differences between the 3 teams. The fact is that whoever was/is in charge, the results are entirely consistent with a team that has performed poorly over 36 matches, and that goes for Everton and Burnley too.
The main concern now is that while Burnley and Everton have been grinding out results, our form of late has dropped through the floor, not helped by the calibre of the opposition we've faced more recently. Injuries and suspensions are eating into an already thin squad (nothing new there) but the big question is how much fight do these players have in them? The game plans are not yielding results but as someone posted elsewhere, neither Klopp nor Pep could get anything out of this group that would make a difference.
6 Points will not be enough if Burnley get 9 or even 6 due to our horrendous goal difference. It looks dire but not yet mathematically impossible. For me, as bad as things are on the pitch with the players we have available, with performances and results, if we go down we deserve to.
As for Marsch, the jury is still out for me. We've already been down the Cellino route, sacking managers after 6 games or so. Marsch has been handed a bucket of water to put out a blazing inferno. I won't blame him for this season. That will come another day when he's had a chance to manage the inevitable exodus, bring in his own players, and implement his own style of football over the summer. How that maps out remains to be seen and if it's not working, he will go the way of all other manager/coaches. It's a harsh results business and the consequences of failure are the same for everyone regardless or status or reputation.
The owners have to take responsibility for this mess. They didn't build on the solid foundations that Bielsa constructed, and they are also guilty of perhaps standing back and giving too much autonomy to a man renowned for sticking to his principles even when those principles were shown up to be flawed, and ultimately cruelly exposed.
In eleven days, if not earlier, we will know our fate.
If you're looking for omens, we played Brighton 40 years ago on the very same date we play them this season. I was at the match which was a must win to have any chance of beating the drop into the old 2nd Division. I will never forget Gary Hamson's goal as long as I live. We won 2-1 then but lost away to WBA which sealed our fate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0tcuqA_dWs
Let's hope Brighton is a good omen and see where we are after that.
MOT (to who knows where)
This season - some facts
posted on 12/5/22
The major fact is we, as a club, deserve everything we've got - simple as!
posted on 12/5/22
Despite the injuries for most of the season under bielsa when did you ever see a Leeds team under him lose their heads, give away awful red cards and became petulant and indisciplined?
Clue… You didn’t.
Marsch has no tactics and no respect off the players. Mouthpiece for 49ers. He’s destroyed a best player (Philips) by having no wingers and play extremely narrow - that’s why we’re losing the ball every time we get possession.
Joke board. Clown manager. Championship club. They are the facts unfortunately
posted on 12/5/22
Stoopo,
"What we have to ask is if Bielsa was able to turn down four players offered to him in January then did he have the final say in who comes and goes? If so then he’s instrumental in all of those signings and who we did or didn’t sign last summer".
This is an excellent point. To turn down 4 different players in the middle of an injury crisis and a run of bad results, and instead rely on young, inexperienced reserves is highly questionable management at the very least, to put it diplomatically.
If Bielsa had the final say and it's what the owners agreed to when Bielsa was appointed, I'm not sure what more they could have done. Bielsa says no, end of. February showed up the folly of his transfer strategy so the owners finally had to act before it was too late. Maybe I wouldn't have done any different myself, but the fact MB was offered players during the window shows that the owners were concerned with the situation. He had too much power it seems. Don't poke the bear in case it walks.
The change in coach has made no difference to our league position - it's no better or worse. The only difference is we've nearly run out of games to do anything about it. The players ultimately are not good enough whoever the coach is, but if MB was providing lists of players for the owners to chase then he was an integral part of the recruitment process and the calibre of player coming in.
I always felt that James was signed because MB wanted him 3 years ago, not because he was needed. We overpaid for our umpteenth winger to show ambition to the fans in the summer window when we were screaming out for cover in midfield and up front.
A catalogue of poor decision-making has caught up with us and it looks like we could be going back to square one. Bielsaball was a joy to watch but wasn't without defects. We've gone from that to chaos and disorganisation on the pitch at a time when we needed to improve results. 4 years of MB's methods are not going to be overturned overnight so it is what it is.
It's a sorry state of affairs but in the future I think we'll look back and wonder how we expected to do well in the PL with a small Championship squad, save a few questionable additions and a back-up squad of young players untried at any level.
posted on 12/5/22
comment by A14... 152-0 T20 + Tea was fantastic پاکستان زِنده باد (U2805)
posted 52 minutes ago
Despite the injuries for most of the season under bielsa when did you ever see a Leeds team under him lose their heads, give away awful red cards and became petulant and indisciplined?
Clue… You didn’t.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
They lost their heads in a different way under bielsa this season, but they still lost them as they capitulated and conceded soft goal after soft goal.
We averaged more yellow cards under bielsa than we have under marsch.
People complained we were a soft touch. Marsch has tried to fire them up... whether you think he's instructed players to put in lunatic challenges or whether you think that's maybe on the players concerned...
posted on 12/5/22
"but the fact MB was offered players during the window shows that the owners were concerned with the situation."
How do you think it works?
Do you think club just keep going round finding players without coach asking and offering them to coach?
If so then of course I would be expecting coach to say no thanks.
If however we feel that its coach saying to club, I need a central midfielder and the club says you have forshaw, is that the coach's fault?
If Coach says I need a fightback and the club come back with players the coach doesn't rate, especially after seeing how Firpo has worked out and says no thank you, is that the coach's fault?
I think we look at data points to judge what we do next, Bielsa's data points are that his squad and system worked and look how well it worked in first season back, so logic dictates its not a system to just ditch.
Somewhere between coach and club the system failed this year but we seem to have completely lost any sort of foundation that Bielsa has given us.
He's gone, we have to change, I miss him, but there will be other coaches who could be successful, other coaches who will have good character, other coaches who can get the most out of players.
Whether we get those coaches we can only hope we dont take another 4/5 attempts by Orta to find them.
posted on 12/5/22
A14.. Depressingly you have summarised our present situation to a tee.
posted on 12/5/22
comment by Jonty (U4614)
posted 1 minute ago
"but the fact MB was offered players during the window shows that the owners were concerned with the situation."
How do you think it works?
Do you think club just keep going round finding players without coach asking and offering them to coach?
If so then of course I would be expecting coach to say no thanks.
If however we feel that its coach saying to club, I need a central midfielder and the club says you have forshaw, is that the coach's fault?
If Coach says I need a fightback and the club come back with players the coach doesn't rate, especially after seeing how Firpo has worked out and says no thank you, is that the coach's fault?
I think we look at data points to judge what we do next, Bielsa's data points are that his squad and system worked and look how well it worked in first season back, so logic dictates its not a system to just ditch.
Somewhere between coach and club the system failed this year but we seem to have completely lost any sort of foundation that Bielsa has given us.
He's gone, we have to change, I miss him, but there will be other coaches who could be successful, other coaches who will have good character, other coaches who can get the most out of players.
Whether we get those coaches we can only hope we dont take another 4/5 attempts by Orta to find them.
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Morning Jonty.
I suspect both club and coach have input and discuss potential signings.
I wouldn't expect it any other way. Apparently Winks at Tottenham was offered on loan - an experienced player at PL level, but MB said no. That's his right but given the alternatives from the U23s, it couldn't have done any harm could it?
When you factor in how the January window is a notoriously stagnant month, with the rare exception, the time to do business was in the summer considering we lost Pablo, Berardi and Alioski. No club wants to let go of its better players mid-season, whichever end of the table it's at.
As you say, for whatever reason, probably financial, the management team, neglected to recruit adequately and effectively, particularly in the summer.
Both MB and the owners must share that responsibility. It would appear that they were more interested in finding youngsters to develop than concentrating on protecting our coveted place in the PL by building on the back of a promising first season back.
Like you, I really do mourn MB's demise - his tenure provided us with the best ride we've had at LUFC for over 20 years. It was 4 years of immense pride in the team, exciting, breath-taking football and a coach who was humble, principled and totally committed. Somewhere along the way it all unravelled.
This isn't quite 2004 because there will be money for new signings, but with the number of players wanting to jump ship if we go down, it will be a tall order to replace them all with real quality because I don't think the answer lies with the U23s, even at Championship level, with a couple of notable exceptions.
posted on 12/5/22
Bielsa lusted after Dan James. He wanted him initially.
And I'm convinced he continued to lust after him right
up to the point of him and the club blowing their 25 mill
load all over Man U. And the sad fact is he's sh 1. TE.
Awful player. At 25 mill, horrendous. That's on MB.
posted on 12/5/22
He was not offered 4 players. Whoever claims this is a fact, it is not.
posted on 12/5/22
comment by Stoopo (U4707)
posted 16 hours, 30 minutes ago
comment by All the Bielsa ringing (U19827)
posted 6 hours, 12 minutes ago
comment by Stoopo (U4707)
posted 9 minutes ago
Great post!
Bed time now! I’m knackered after watching that. Some prat in an Audi being embarrassingly over aggressive leaving the car park. What is it with Audi drivers? A massive queue on the inner ring road and then watching the highlights.
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What highlights, Stoopo?
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I really wanted to see the sending off because from the East Stand we could only see James winning the ball. After seeing it on TV is was definitely a modern day sending off. You can’t go in like that these days and expect to stay on the pitch. I think Phillips probably got away with one too. Late and high. Could have walked.
As for the ref. How did he not book a few Chelsea players? There were some very late and cynical challenges from them all game.
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Re your last paragraph, as soon as I saw who the ref was I knew we would get nothing. He is very anti Leeds imo. I cannot remember a game, where he has been the ref, where we got any favours from him. I noticed the only time he gave Leeds any decisions was after we were down to 10 men and Chelsea had as good as won. I would love to see a record of the results of our games and the number of cards dished out where he has been the ref. He must be bad for me to remember him in this way.