Manchester United
League - 20
FA Cup - 12
League Cup - 5
European Cup/Champions League - 3
UEFA Cup/Europa League - 1
Total: 41
Liverpool
League - 19
FA Cup - 8
League Cup - 9
European Cup/Champions League - 6
UEFA Cup/Europa League - 3
Total: 45
Discuss.
Most Successful English Club
posted on 15/5/22
I don’t think your analogy is relevant. My opinion is as such because the best teams that ARE in that geographical area (so nothing to do with Africa or Asia) do not compete in that competition.
I think I just don’t see how you can compare one competition, where the best in that geographical area do compete, to one in which the best in that area don’t compete.
If it means a lot to you, that’s totally your prerogative. As I say, different experiences, upbringings, etc. Just, with me and my friends, it was always used as a slur against your team, when you were in the Europa. You’d get “oh, who did you get in the Champion’s League draw?” Because they knew you weren’t in it, or you’d get “see you on Thursday night on Channel 5”.
The same was never / could never be said of the FA.
Back when we were good (lol), United did something that I guess speaks to the level of prestige (or lack thereof) associated with the Europa:
As a season ticket holder at United, you automatically had to pay for ECL games, as well (that is, no opt in / opt out).
One year, we were in Europa. The club removed that mandatory opt in charge from all the season tickets and it became the fans’ discretion.
posted on 15/5/22
welshpoolfan
It's pretty similar to your points system tbf, I was just trying to make it as simple as possible.
posted on 15/5/22
The Europa and League Cups should be removed to give a fairer reflection.
There's only 3 major titles; the PL, CL and FA Cup.
posted on 15/5/22
By the way, I’m absolutely not saying that, due to my disputed criteria meaning we have 35 and you have 33, this makes us a more successful club.
As 1982 said, it isn’t as simple as just rallying up the trophies as, even within my criteria, there are differing levels of worth between them.
For example, if Liverpool win the league and lost the CL final (which I don’t think you will lose, but for the sake of the argument), by my - disputed - criteria, the raw quantity tally would be 35 United, 34 Liverpool. HOWEVER, I would have absolutely no leg to stand on to claim United were more successful, the leagues being our one and only argument right now, in my opinion.
And, for the avoidance of doubt, I’m not saying the leagues are the only argument or the definitive argument - there’s a lot more to it and a lot of vastly differing but vastly relevant and valid opinions - but it is AN argument.
posted on 15/5/22
"You’d get “oh, who did you get in the Champion’s League draw?” Because they knew you weren’t in it, or you’d get “see you on Thursday night on Channel 5”.
The same was never / could never be said of the FA."
In a shocker, fans take the mick out of other fans for Aby petty reason they can find. I've been mocked for Liverpool being knocked out of the league cup despite them challenging for the title or CL. Thay doesn't mean that the league cup is suddenly bigger than these tournament.
Look, I get it. You want to cherry-pick those 3 tournaments as being the only ones that matter and most important because that's the only way you could tell yourself that United were still more successfully than Liverpool. You then had to come up with some contradictory and arbitrarily applied distinctions to try to justify that claim.
If you had said PL and CL are the only ines that matter, then pretty much everyone would have seen where youbwere coming from, but that as no good because Liverpool are still ahead. Just dismissing the league cup wasn't any good for you because that only puts them level, so you had to come up with a way to include the FA cup with the big two but dismiss everything else.
posted on 15/5/22
"By the way, I’m absolutely not saying that, due to my disputed criteria meaning we have 35 and you have 33, this makes us a more successful club."
I'd like to think not as that would make you an absolute imbecile.
Essentially you'd have removed a load of major honours from the club who are most successful and then claimed the club who are second most successful are actually most successful.
posted on 15/5/22
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 14 seconds ago
"By the way, I’m absolutely not saying that, due to my disputed criteria meaning we have 35 and you have 33, this makes us a more successful club."
I'd like to think not as that would make you an absolute imbecile.
Essentially you'd have removed a load of major honours from the club who are most successful and then claimed the club who are second most successful are actually most successful.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Which appears to be exactly what happened.
posted on 15/5/22
Welsh, you are being far too cynical for your own good, here - this is not a contrived methodology to portray United as more successful. As I’ve stated several times, there are many arguments to suggest Liverpool are more successful, even by my criteria; it is NOT as simple as a quantity tally.
I’ve just explained to you that, the way I’ve always seen it; the way it’s always been seen by the people I’ve grown up around and discussed footy with (which includes three years at Liverpool Uni!); the way it’s always been viewed in the sporting establishments I’ve been involved with; and by other standards and mantras, the three “big” trophies or “grand slams” were those three.
If you think differently or have had other experiences, that is absolutely fine, sunshine! I am not trying to diminish or devalue your opinion, nor indeed take away from your happiness and enjoyment of winning a Europa league or a league cup; I’m simply recounting my own experiences and offering you my own opinions.
posted on 15/5/22
the only three that “matter” are the FA, the league, and the European cup.
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If it helps you sleep better at night.
posted on 15/5/22
It’s all a bit silly, this debate, IMO.
Even if United were more successful than Liverpool overall… we’re currently a laughing stock where as Liverpool are one the best in Europe, is it really anything to brag about?
As the years roll by, it just becomes more of a meaningless stat.