Morning All... disappointing result yesterday.... hard not to be a little concerned going into the Bournemouth & Brentford games..... who'd a thought that at the final whistle at the Ethiad ? I guess that's Spurs for ya ?
I heard Ange saying we don't currently have the squad to deal with injuries, suspensions and number of games we have to play.
Last season he was bemoaning the fact we didn't have enough games to give everyone game time (Perhaps playing a decent side at Fulham in LC would help)
We spent 50mln quid this summer on 2 kids who never start in The Prem and Solanke (good signing).
So what is it Ange, He talks endlessly about all the things "we want to achieve" I have no idea what that means. He gets upset when he says people unfairly criticize him and Spurs but what does he expect? Surely there's a element of pragmatism in all elements of life.... His job is to WIN games.... what's the point of wins at Old Trafford & Man City if you cant motivate the players to get more than 2 points from Leicester, Ipswich, Palace and Fulham.
Maybe I just don't live Ange's world perfect principles, but Id have taken an ugly point at City if it had meant taking 12 points from the games I mentioned.... That to me would represent progress vs whatever his version of progress is
Either there is some kind of disconnect between Ownership, Management, Players and Fans at Spurs or Ange is just trying to baffle everyone with ideology and waffle until he eventually gets fired.
I don't dislike Ange but something is wrong at Spurs.... I suspect it all starts with Levy.... He ultimately sanctions the players coming in, hires the managers etc....
I cant help wondering if Levy liked winning as much as he likes money would there be a different/ more focused mentality at Spurs ?
Im baffled
A disconnect somewhere ?
posted on 3/12/24
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 12 minutes ago
comment by Diamondlights (U20501)
posted 4 minutes ago
Good debate guys.... who knows what's really going on.... I can see both sides of the argument, personally I don't see anything other than more of the same.... inconsistent results, failing when the pressure is on, naive tactics and a club/business that simply won't risk (& i appreciate it's a huge financial risk) to try and take the club to the next sporting level. Maybe it's a much longer term project both in terms of Ange and in terms of the club growing organically than I'm willing to accept (I'm the first to admit I'm inpatient) but we all accept it's a win now business given the money involved & its not like we are moaning having won a cup or 2 in the past decade !!!
I'm sure Levy places short term expectations on his managers (Getting CL etc) has a manager talk about his wins in Scotland and Japan but builds his business in a long term/ sustainable manner (steady, sensible spend, buying young players for the future/ high resale etc..... & people wonder why some fans ask if there's a disconnect.
At this point I'd be happy with back to back league wins.. They've been too few & far between
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I have always said that i completely understand fans' impatience because we have been jam tomorrow for so long.
But this is a long term project and fans have to get onboard with that. Ange has a 4 year deal. We have a young squad that will grow together. We have enough quality to be top 6 and may be better and we have enough quality to beat anyone on our day, and we have. I think the only teams Ange hasnt beaten is Chelsea (L, L) Wolves (L,L) and Arsenal D,L,L).
DO fans look at our squad an think it's complete? No, they're probably thinking we need another back up CB (£25m) a back up LB (£30m) and a stand out wide attacker to replace Son/Werner (£60-75m) and a better no.2 GK (£15-20m). That's another £130-£150m and that's probably the bare minimum.
SO of course this is long term. Come this time next year it could be £0.5bn spent under Ange's reign from a chairman who "doesn't back the manager"
We remain a work in progress but we do need to see improvement over this season. Improved defensive record, improved away form, greater consistency.
We know on our day that we are a force to be reckoned with so this may mean we are more of a cup team than a league team right now, and that isnt necessarily a bad thing at this stage, but we do need to begin to move on from great one-off performances.
The Fulham game was nearly perfect for us. It would have been absolutely ideal with win badly, with a lot missing, because so far this season we have shown that below par performances end in losses. So a draw was not the worst thing, if you can accept that a team will not always be at its very best and needs to grind a result from time to time (we nearly did it and the fact their goal was deflected and they should have had 2 red cards, was a bit unlucky).
It's those sorts of games where we need to get something and if we had played badly and beaten Ipswich and drawn at Palace, then we'd be right in there, and we'd still be disappointed with a Fulham draw, but not disastrous.
So for me we are not too far off. We need to make these small improvements, but fans needs to accept that sometimes we will drop points because we are far from the finished article, individually or as a sqaud.
The OTT response to any dropped points on here is just bonkers.
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Good post....I agree with much it but I don't share in your optimism but thats cool... No need for everyone to think the same.. I fear I'm too old and too cynical to believe that because Ange has a 4 year deal this is some kind of a new dawn and that Spurs are embarking on some kind of long term rebuild. At the end of the day... This is Levy we are talking about and as we all know..... Someone else always carry's the can.... watch your back Ange !
posted on 3/12/24
Dev - As ever, you make good points, however I don't think both Levy and Ange should be as immune to criticism as you think they should be.
First of all, I do think there's a tactical issue that is seeing our goal getting routinely peppered with shots and I'm struggling to see how time is likely to change this. I just think Ange is more than comfortable with the "you score 3, we'll score 4" policy but throughout history this has never, ever lead to any tangible success. Someone else has already alluded to it but the most successful teams have one thing in common - a stingy defence. Even Pep's team has evolved to a point where he sometimes plays four centre backs in defence, with fewer attacking runs from full backs. Does Ange have a plan to reduce the amount of shots on our goal? Does he even care? His main objective is to press really aggressively but in the absence of any true sitting midfielder or any full back with defensive instruction or instinct, once you beat our press, you're in. It's naive. It's Playstation football, as Gary Neville once said. If you haven't got the players, you're just shooting yourself in the foot playing that way. I'm struggling to see how any of this changes given how headstrong he is and how allergic to flexibility he can be.
So we've established there are, for me, tactical issues with the way Ange plays, but then you have to consider club ambition. We sold PEH, mainly I believe to get his wages off the bill, and we were told that Gray and Bergvall had impressed so much in training that we were no longer looking for a number 6, a position that felt like a priority. Fast forward to now and we have Bergvall who clearly isn't ready and Gray who isn't trusted in his favoured midfield position. So who do we have on the bench that can calm nerves, maintain composure and see out a narrow lead? I've no idea how involved Ange was with the midfield recruitment but I doubt he'd be happy to have not adequately replaced such an important role. All of that feels negligent to me. We've massively been hoodwinked there because we were clearly told Gray was the answer.
It's funny how each and every football decision like that just so happens to also be financially beneficial to the club too. We're lead to believe that it was a smart footballing decision but let's face it. We now know it wasn't. It was just a money grab, pure and simple.
I just don't share your optimism that this project will bear fruit, even if I freely admit that I'm showing a lack of patience. I'd be surprised if any Spurs fan long enough in the tooth to have had to endure the entirety of Levy's reign would think any differently. What makes you think this one will work when many others have failed, particularly with this tactical set up?
posted on 3/12/24
comment by Dan Arsenal (U21084)
posted 1 hour, 3 minutes ago
The OTT response to any dropped points on here is just bonkers.
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How is it bonkers for a fanbase to expect a level of consistency? Your performances are so flaky and this suggests your Manager doesn't know what he is doing tactically. You've excellent players by the way so should be taking advantage of the dodgy results of late of the other big teams (bar Liverpool)
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You were demanding Arteta out 50 games into Arsenal's reign and beyond...about 70 games after you ended 8th!
We can demand consistency but if it was as easily done as said then football would not be the mystery it is. It is the hardest thing to achieve, whatever level you are at. Arsenal managed it this season, last 6 LDLDWW Nope!!
If the same old issues persist late into the season, if this costs us in cups and the league then we can agree that it's failing.
For context, Spurs just drew with Fulham after a midweek game and in Arsenal context we were missing the equivalent of Raya, Saliba, Gabriel, Havertz, Jesus, Partey, Nwaneri, Sterling.
I would be interested to see how Arsenal coped with that lot out.
posted on 3/12/24
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 50 minutes ago
Dev - As ever, you make good points, however I don't think both Levy and Ange should be as immune to criticism as you think they should be.
First of all, I do think there's a tactical issue that is seeing our goal getting routinely peppered with shots and I'm struggling to see how time is likely to change this. I just think Ange is more than comfortable with the "you score 3, we'll score 4" policy but throughout history this has never, ever lead to any tangible success. Someone else has already alluded to it but the most successful teams have one thing in common - a stingy defence. Even Pep's team has evolved to a point where he sometimes plays four centre backs in defence, with fewer attacking runs from full backs. Does Ange have a plan to reduce the amount of shots on our goal? Does he even care? His main objective is to press really aggressively but in the absence of any true sitting midfielder or any full back with defensive instruction or instinct, once you beat our press, you're in. It's naive. It's Playstation football, as Gary Neville once said. If you haven't got the players, you're just shooting yourself in the foot playing that way. I'm struggling to see how any of this changes given how headstrong he is and how allergic to flexibility he can be.
So we've established there are, for me, tactical issues with the way Ange plays, but then you have to consider club ambition. We sold PEH, mainly I believe to get his wages off the bill, and we were told that Gray and Bergvall had impressed so much in training that we were no longer looking for a number 6, a position that felt like a priority. Fast forward to now and we have Bergvall who clearly isn't ready and Gray who isn't trusted in his favoured midfield position. So who do we have on the bench that can calm nerves, maintain composure and see out a narrow lead? I've no idea how involved Ange was with the midfield recruitment but I doubt he'd be happy to have not adequately replaced such an important role. All of that feels negligent to me. We've massively been hoodwinked there because we were clearly told Gray was the answer.
It's funny how each and every football decision like that just so happens to also be financially beneficial to the club too. We're lead to believe that it was a smart footballing decision but let's face it. We now know it wasn't. It was just a money grab, pure and simple.
I just don't share your optimism that this project will bear fruit, even if I freely admit that I'm showing a lack of patience. I'd be surprised if any Spurs fan long enough in the tooth to have had to endure the entirety of Levy's reign would think any differently. What makes you think this one will work when many others have failed, particularly with this tactical set up?
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Fair enough.
What i do not agree with with Ange is that while our tactics demand we take risks, which mean we concede chances, we also create and score THE MOST goals. Many over look this. (BTW our XGA is the 5th best, so its not like we're facing relegation level chances against us). We have not yet found the right balance consistently and part of that is also the level of performance. vs City we aced it. We need to ace it more and when we don't we need to grind. I think we know this and are learning it. I do think we were so up against it with injuries vs Fulham that it was always a tough ask (look at my Arsenal equivalent list above to give context of who'd they be missing. It would cripple most teams).
Its funny you point to our CM because actually, 3 positions filled by Bentancur, Bissouma, Sarr, Maddison, Deki is one of the strongest in the league and probably our strength, so i do not see it as an issue that the 6th and 7th choices are kids.
Spence omission from the Europa squad was a mistake, as Udogie & Porro have not been properly rested. We need another CB although Davies has done really well.
Its the game changer up from that is costing us IMO. Son is not quite on it, Werner is Werner, BJ is there to tap goals in but his all round contribution is not enough. Richy is now a fully fledged sicknote. Shame Odobert got a bad one too!
Levy's contribution to the current set up is far less hands on than it was. He will set the strategy, so the likes of Lange will be working knowing that we have to plan forward, get value as well as just getting for the first XI, and i have no real issue with this, so long as we start to see the progression of the squad.
If next summer we fill those 2 or 3 gaps with same quality, Gray becomes more trusted, Bergvall gaining some more confidence, Moore starting to make a mark, then there is a lot to look forward to.
posted on 3/12/24
"Its funny you point to our CM because actually, 3 positions filled by Bentancur, Bissouma, Sarr, Maddison, Deki is one of the strongest in the league and probably our strength, so i do not see it as an issue that the 6th and 7th choices are kids."
–––-
As far as I'm concerned, none of those players qualify as a 6. They're more 8 in their profile. Maybe Bissouma but he's not a great protector. For all his faults, PEH was someone that would sit, calm things down and dictate the pace of a game. I don't think any of the midfielders listed are even close to him in terms of ability off the ball and knowing where to cover. I don't blame them. They've been told that attacking is all that matters. It's little wonder they neglect defending because whether they mean to or not, the message Ange likes to perpetuate in the media about 'entertaining' directly informs how determined they are to track back. If he doesn't care about conceding goals, why should they?
Let's see how it all goes but until we get a bit of consistency, I'm not going to get excited about any individual win. What's the point in beating City only to pick up one point against Ipswich, Palace and Fulham? Inconsistency feeds apathy. Numb to the losses and joyless at the wins until they can actually mean something at the end of the day. Time will tell I guess but we're going to need to see a huge uplift between now and the end of the year. If this keeps up, he's done by summer.
posted on 3/12/24
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 6 minutes ago
"Its funny you point to our CM because actually, 3 positions filled by Bentancur, Bissouma, Sarr, Maddison, Deki is one of the strongest in the league and probably our strength, so i do not see it as an issue that the 6th and 7th choices are kids."
–––-
As far as I'm concerned, none of those players qualify as a 6. They're more 8 in their profile. Maybe Bissouma but he's not a great protector. For all his faults, PEH was someone that would sit, calm things down and dictate the pace of a game. I don't think any of the midfielders listed are even close to him in terms of ability off the ball and knowing where to cover. I don't blame them. They've been told that attacking is all that matters. It's little wonder they neglect defending because whether they mean to or not, the message Ange likes to perpetuate in the media about 'entertaining' directly informs how determined they are to track back. If he doesn't care about conceding goals, why should they?
Let's see how it all goes but until we get a bit of consistency, I'm not going to get excited about any individual win. What's the point in beating City only to pick up one point against Ipswich, Palace and Fulham? Inconsistency feeds apathy. Numb to the losses and joyless at the wins until they can actually mean something at the end of the day. Time will tell I guess but we're going to need to see a huge uplift between now and the end of the year. If this keeps up, he's done by summer.
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Not sure it matters much but I think we've had 3 back to league wins since the great start to last season.... Spurs have so many good players & I appreciate injuries have been a problem (But everyone could say the same) but you do have to wonder whether its mentality thing or Squad depth(Thats on Ange and Levy at a higher level), If its a tactics thing, then it's on Ange and perhaps a bit of humility on his part to say "I'm new to this Prem League thing and I'll figure it out" wouldn't go a miss. Its his stubbornness and "i know best" mentality when he has nothing of substance to back it up that drives me mad.
Go Back and Look at Celtic Vs Real Madrid in the CL.... Its ideology, stubbornness to HIS principles and the need to be entertaining over the common sense reality of football..... We are seeing the same thing all over again.
I like Ange but I wish he could adapt to level he's operating at with the players at his disposal rather than saying this is who I am and that's it...... It will get him fired and that in itself is a shame
posted on 3/12/24
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 2 hours, 13 minutes ago
comment by Dan Arsenal (U21084)
posted 1 hour, 3 minutes ago
The OTT response to any dropped points on here is just bonkers.
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How is it bonkers for a fanbase to expect a level of consistency? Your performances are so flaky and this suggests your Manager doesn't know what he is doing tactically. You've excellent players by the way so should be taking advantage of the dodgy results of late of the other big teams (bar Liverpool)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You were demanding Arteta out 50 games into Arsenal's reign and beyond...about 70 games after you ended 8th!
We can demand consistency but if it was as easily done as said then football would not be the mystery it is. It is the hardest thing to achieve, whatever level you are at. Arsenal managed it this season, last 6 LDLDWWNope!!
If the same old issues persist late into the season, if this costs us in cups and the league then we can agree that it's failing.
For context, Spurs just drew with Fulham after a midweek game and in Arsenal context we were missing the equivalent of Raya, Saliba, Gabriel, Havertz, Jesus, Partey, Nwaneri, Sterling.
I would be interested to see how Arsenal coped with that lot out.
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I think they would have probably won as they'd still have enough quality. Even if they had only drawn like we did, I imagine they'd have outplayed Fulham overall and the result just didn't go for them. Unlike ourselves who were outplayed by Fulham and were helped at the end by a red card.
I'm just not getting the amount of positivity for this result. It was another winnable game that we dropped points in and looked poor, following on from a great result (discounting of course the other winnable game in Europa against Roma in which we dropped points and looked poor).
posted on 3/12/24
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 8 hours, 16 minutes ago
comment by BelfastSpur (U15068)
posted 9 hours, 7 minutes ago
Spurs have the second youngest average squad age in the PL, coupled with the 6th lowest % of minutes afforded to academy players. That tells you quite a lot. But the main thing it points to is that players we have signed - there has been many - haven’t been bought for the here and now.
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Current firstteam:
Vicario
Van de Ven
Solanke
Johnson
Maddison
all bought for Ange and the first XI at about £210m
back up to first XI:
Dragusin, Werner, Odobert at about £50m
Kids, to play some part now but bigger future:
Gary (18), Bergvall (18), Veliz (19), Phillips (18) Vuskovic (16) at about £70m
So roughly first team spend 65%, first team squad 15%, future 20%
I just have a real problem when people say stuff to support their narrative and it just aint true.
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You’re missing my point entirely.
I am not saying we aren’t signing players for the first team. I am saying the players bought aren’t for us to compete for titles or trophies in the here and now. Rather we are building a team capable of competing tomorrow. Other than Solanke or Maddison now of the players you listed have reached anywhere near the ceiling of their potential yet
posted on 4/12/24
comment by BelfastSpur (U15068)
posted 16 hours, 28 minutes ago
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 8 hours, 16 minutes ago
comment by BelfastSpur (U15068)
posted 9 hours, 7 minutes ago
Spurs have the second youngest average squad age in the PL, coupled with the 6th lowest % of minutes afforded to academy players. That tells you quite a lot. But the main thing it points to is that players we have signed - there has been many - haven’t been bought for the here and now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Current firstteam:
Vicario
Van de Ven
Solanke
Johnson
Maddison
all bought for Ange and the first XI at about £210m
back up to first XI:
Dragusin, Werner, Odobert at about £50m
Kids, to play some part now but bigger future:
Gary (18), Bergvall (18), Veliz (19), Phillips (18) Vuskovic (16) at about £70m
So roughly first team spend 65%, first team squad 15%, future 20%
I just have a real problem when people say stuff to support their narrative and it just aint true.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You’re missing my point entirely.
I am not saying we aren’t signing players for the first team. I am saying the players bought aren’t for us to compete for titles or trophies in the here and now. Rather we are building a team capable of competing tomorrow. Other than Solanke or Maddison now of the players you listed have reached anywhere near the ceiling of their potential yet
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Im hardly missing the point...
"But the main thing it points to is that players we have signed - there has been many - haven’t been bought for the here and now."
This was your point and it is explicit that we have bought players who are not improving the first team, but are planning for the future.
I have shown 80% of our sizable spending is on the first team squad.
First team ready players are by their very nature more expensive, so we cannot just go out and buy a first team in a window or 2. We have also had to fill gaps in the squad, so we have a loan in Werner, a cheap kid in Bergvall and an expensive kid in Gray and a mid range kid in Odobert. They can contribute and fill the gaps now and become mainstays in time
If you are making the case that we should not have bought them and instead spent the £70m on someone like Eze, then thats fine but that leaves gaps all over the squad, less depth and no succession planning. We're then looking to fill those gaps with more loans, or cheap oldies, or even cheaper kids. That's n ot how you build and develop a squad.
Are you another one saying this squad has no potential to win anything this season?
I would agree it lacks the depth to challenge for a title right now (that takes more time from a rebuild) but the cups? we're in with a decent shout in all of them. We just knocked Man City out of the EFL, so its hard to argue we cannot beat anyone on our day, so long as we able to put a strong line-up out.
posted on 4/12/24
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 11 hours, 49 minutes ago
comment by BelfastSpur (U15068)
posted 16 hours, 28 minutes ago
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 8 hours, 16 minutes ago
comment by BelfastSpur (U15068)
posted 9 hours, 7 minutes ago
Spurs have the second youngest average squad age in the PL, coupled with the 6th lowest % of minutes afforded to academy players. That tells you quite a lot. But the main thing it points to is that players we have signed - there has been many - haven’t been bought for the here and now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Current firstteam:
Vicario
Van de Ven
Solanke
Johnson
Maddison
all bought for Ange and the first XI at about £210m
back up to first XI:
Dragusin, Werner, Odobert at about £50m
Kids, to play some part now but bigger future:
Gary (18), Bergvall (18), Veliz (19), Phillips (18) Vuskovic (16) at about £70m
So roughly first team spend 65%, first team squad 15%, future 20%
I just have a real problem when people say stuff to support their narrative and it just aint true.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You’re missing my point entirely.
I am not saying we aren’t signing players for the first team. I am saying the players bought aren’t for us to compete for titles or trophies in the here and now. Rather we are building a team capable of competing tomorrow. Other than Solanke or Maddison now of the players you listed have reached anywhere near the ceiling of their potential yet
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Im hardly missing the point...
"But the main thing it points to is that players we have signed - there has been many - haven’t been bought for the here and now."
This was your point and it is explicit that we have bought players who are not improving the first team, but are planning for the future.
I have shown 80% of our sizable spending is on the first team squad.
First team ready players are by their very nature more expensive, so we cannot just go out and buy a first team in a window or 2. We have also had to fill gaps in the squad, so we have a loan in Werner, a cheap kid in Bergvall and an expensive kid in Gray and a mid range kid in Odobert. They can contribute and fill the gaps now and become mainstays in time
If you are making the case that we should not have bought them and instead spent the £70m on someone like Eze, then thats fine but that leaves gaps all over the squad, less depth and no succession planning. We're then looking to fill those gaps with more loans, or cheap oldies, or even cheaper kids. That's n ot how you build and develop a squad.
Are you another one saying this squad has no potential to win anything this season?
I would agree it lacks the depth to challenge for a title right now (that takes more time from a rebuild) but the cups? we're in with a decent shout in all of them. We just knocked Man City out of the EFL, so its hard to argue we cannot beat anyone on our day, so long as we able to put a strong line-up out.
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I didn’t state the players we have signed haven’t in many respects improved the first team. But a strategic decision was made to sign players 21-25 in the main. If instead we had signed different players in some instances that were more experienced and in the 25-29 bracket we could arguably be currently further ahead under Ange.
But I get it that is more the approach we tried under Jose and Conte and it didn’t come to fruition.
The jest of my initial comment was really to reiterate to some fans that are disillusioned that a complete rebuild was always on the cards. And given the type of club we are - with the chairman we have - we weren’t going to go out and spend 40-50m on every position for ready made players. Which you have pretty much alluded to in your last comment.
Like I said we have the second youngest average starting age within the PL. The majority of the players we have signed are mainly only starting to show their qualities at this level and whilst the ceiling is high, patience is needed.
I think a lot of what you’re saying applies to the sentiment of my initial comment. When I stated they haven’t been bought ‘for the here and now’. I meant to make us successful in the here and now. Not that they wouldn’t feature in the here and now.
I guess I am just fed up with the constant undermining of the manager expecting the impossible over and over again. When the fact is how we invest and operate is usually where we finish most seasons. And rather in terms of wages we continually punch above our weight.
On the cups we certainly can win one of them. Cups are won on merit but usually with a good dollop of luck. Something that we are rarely afforded. But luck generally comes easier when everyone associated with a club gets behind it.
For clarity I believe Ange deserves the rest of this season and next. If by next season we haven’t progressed then rightly more people can call for change again.