It doesn’t matter how good your legal team is. How long you can keep dodging PSR by using all the creative accounting measures at your disposal - football has a way of finding you out in the end. And it’s found these owners out - big time.
We are the worst run club in the PL by a country mile. I doubt Mike Ashley or the Venkys could have taken a top 5 PL club and thrown it in the bin financially and footballing wise in the space of 2 seasons.
Tonight’s result confirms what we all knew was inevitable. This team stinks of relegation and it’s happened because we have an incompetent brat at the helm of this club who has surrounded himself by sycophants who are worse at their jobs than he is
To go from Cooper to Ruud is the equivalent of a fit girl on a night out dumping Phil Neville so she can get off with his brother Gary instead. It’s an absolutely insane decision. He hasn’t shown an ounce of tactical or coaching nous since he walked into the club. Going forward he’s made us worse. Defensively he’s managed to make us worse. Hes turned us into a team that makes about 80 passes that go nowhere before losing the ball and conceding
It’s not all his fault - he’s been handed a poisoned chalice to an extent. A club in such disarray that our PL squad is actually worse than our championship squad. The damage done under Coopers transfer policy is far reaching. That appointment was very damaging and it’s been compounded with RVN. What on earth were the owners thinking by appointing a manager with no experience at this level
This club is gambling - and losing - over and again. I’m afraid for me - it’s time up. I was a season ticket holder when we were in league one but I haven’t been this season and I won’t go again until I see a change at the Top. Either the KP group exits (preferably) or Rudkin and Whelan are moved on. Until that happens I’m done with supporting the club, because this is going absolutely nowhere
And that my friends…is that
posted on 17/1/25
Whilst I was hoping Potter or Moyes would be appointed ( neither wanted the job) I think Ruud got the fans on side with those early points we picked up.
But with several of our better players out injured plus games against Liverpool, Man City, Newcastle and even Wolves under “new manager bounce “ he’s going through a tough period.
We have our hands tied regarding bringing decent new players in, Top may have money but can’t spend due to the profit and loss rules.
I believe as a team we are looking a lot better, we might easily have beaten Palace with a Vardy of 4-5 years ago.
We’re quite likely going down, let’s hope for somehow bringing in a Huth and a Fuchs, I think it was 2014 when we looked doomed at Christmas and ended up 14th.
posted on 17/1/25
'I do think there is a risk that we create a myth where we turn "Cooper never had us in the bottom 3!" into "Cooper would have kept us up!". The first is correct but let's face it, we played like a bottom 3 team and it was only a matter of time. There is no evidence at all that Cooper would have kept us up'.............
That last point is simply not true.
Before I present the 'evidence' I ought to say that I don't disagree with much of what you say, and agree that we were probably in deep relegation trouble under Cooper. Having said which, these are the key stats (which mostly speak for themselves):
Cooper - 12 games, 15 goals for, 23 against, points 10, goals for per game 1.25, goals against per game 1.92, points per game 0.83.
RVN era - 9 games, 8 goals for, 23 against, points 4, goals for per game 0.89, goals against per game 2.56, points per game 0.44.
There is an argument to say that the teams we have faced under Ruud have been higher in the table but this isn't as marked as one might imagine: average position in table of opponent: Cooper - 10.8, RVN 9.2.
On another critically important metric, how we are doing against our immediate competition for those cherished relegations spots (say up to Palace in 15th), Cooper was P3 W1 D2 L0 whereas RVN is P2 W0 D0 L2.
I don't know how Cooper did it, did he have some cunning plan I can't fathom, or was he just plain lucky? We seem to be a bit more pleasing on the eye generally under RVN, but ultimately it's goals and points that count; also against Palace we seemed to regress to the usual Rudkin vision of a team (I have to blame him for this as you could insert Puel, Brendan or Enzo instead of RVN and make the same point) where possession is everything, the players are petrified of losing the ball so we end up passing back when we win it in midfield instead of trying to exploit potential gaps in a disorganised defence; doing this all the time is insane for us as the team then faces a perfectly arranged opposition (we're not Manchester City John, we haven't got the players to break down a defence using intricate passing and movement).
I've been circumspect about our chances this season since we were (mostly) romping the Championship, but to end on a slightly more positive note, despite RVN overseeing a desperate 6 game losing streak, somehow we are but one win away from safety. Which I suspect says more about how poor the teams down the bottom of the league are than anything much good about us.
One slight glimmer of hope is the FA Cup game success, which suggests that next year we may be competitive, even with an EFL points deduction, to at least make the playoffs. One benefit of having a relatively poor squad is that other clubs are hardly likely to come sniffing around for many of our players (save Mads obviously and we'd lose Facundo for sure), so we may yet prosper next year.
One final point, in the Championship you get 4 more games to watch for your season ticket expenditure. On reflection I'm not sure if that is a bonus or just additional torture .
posted on 17/1/25
comment by Appletonsthename (U10074)
posted 48 minutes ago
...............We’re quite likely going down, let’s hope for somehow bringing in a Huth and a Fuchs, I think it was 2014 when we looked doomed at Christmas and ended up 14th.
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Yes but in 2014/15 we were competitive in the matches despite our poor run, mostly only losing by the odd goal - unlike now. Bringing Huth in certainly made a huge difference to the defence.
Here's a typical line up from the Great Escape period:
Schmeichel
Wasilewski Huth Morgan Shlupp
Mahrez Cambiasso James Albrighton
Ulloa Vardy
What would we give for a line up like that now?
posted on 17/1/25
Nuneaton; you make some interesting points and have the data which appears to back it up. But I would counter this by saying that Cooper had a stronger squad available to him than RVN has had - Cooper had Hermansen, Ricardo and Fatawu, three of our best players last season, all fit and ready. Ruud has not. Also, Cooper didn't utilise the latter two, practically at all in the league. Cooper also had a full pre-season, transfer window (in which we bought the PL experience that he asked for) AND the momentum from a successful promotion campaign - all of which have been unavailable to RVN.
Whilst the data may indicate that we were doing just about enough to stay enough, the performances were not. I mentioned a while back that of the 24 halves of football under Cooper in the PL, we probably played 'well' in 4 of them - that's not sustainable at PL level. Some of the performances under Cooper were truly dire - worse than even Taylor or Rodgers at their worst. The Everton game still gives me nightmares.
So yes, if you want to go on data and data alone, we might have just about stayed up under him if, somehow, we managed to keep getting undeserved points from games we were mostly poor in. But eventually, the results would have caught up with the performances.
Coincidentally, of the 8 games we have under RVN, how many points do you think Cooper would have managed? I think we would have lost to West Ham and Brighton. We might have got a point from Wolves. I can't see the Newcastle, Man City, Liverpool or Villa results being different - maybe we would have sh*thoused a point? And then against Palace, maybe we would have sneaked a horrible 1-0 or 2-1. So overall, probably the same tally, if not slightly lower.
posted on 17/1/25
Also, I would say that perhaps a more logical question is not "would we be doing better under Cooper now?" but rather "would we be doing better if RVN was hired in the summer instead of Cooper?". For me, the answer is undeniably 'yes'. For starters, the transition from Maresca to RVN would have been smoother and the players would have been more on board with it (they clearly disliked Cooper, as evident from Vardy's reaction to being subbed and the 'we miss you Enzo' party situation). I also don't think that RVN would have sanctioned the moves for Skipp, Ayew, BDCR and Edouard - I think he would have prioritised players from abroad, probably from Netherlands, and would not have had a dogmatic insistence on PL experience.
posted on 17/1/25
Fair points Appleton. The difference in 2014 is we had the quality - Pearson was struggling to find the system and use the players at his disposal to make it work. Seems bizarre we were cut adrift at the bottom with a team consisting of Cambiasso, Mahrez and a prime Jamie Vardy.
He unlocked the puzzle in the end but it was Ranieri who figured out how to best make use of that squad (and Kante helped enormously)
Problem is we just don’t have those players this time. And I’m afraid Ruud while producing better displays isn’t really showing that he can school a defence. The players aren’t good enough in general - but they can still play better than they are and be more organised. The defending isn’t even championship standard
posted on 17/1/25
I think Foxello is bang on there Nuneaton. It’s not comparable because RVN has lost arguably his 2 best players - Mads and Fatawu and also lost Ndidi.
If Cooper had this team I don’t see how the results would have been any better - perhaps some of the games might have been tighter, I’m not sure
Fatawu was the reason we turned it around against Southampton - without him we weren’t winning that game in my view. It turned when he came off the bench. His loss is absolutely huge and Cooper wasn’t even using him properly
Imagine if Cooper didn’t have Mads for any of his matches. Totally different outcome
Where I do agree with you is that the fans are incredibly forgiving of RVN in a way that they weren’t with Cooper. This is wrong. RVN has major question marks over his use of Buononotte, why the goals have dried up, our lack of cutting edge and our defensive mistakes
posted on 17/1/25
comment by Foxello - "a miserable Rodgers obsessed weirdo" (U6985)
posted 4 hours, 1 minute ago
Nuneaton; you make some interesting points and have the data which appears to back it up. But I would counter this by saying that Cooper had a stronger squad available to him than RVN has had - Cooper had Hermansen, Ricardo and Fatawu, three of our best players last season, all fit and ready. Ruud has not. Also, Cooper didn't utilise the latter two, practically at all in the league. Cooper also had a full pre-season, transfer window (in which we bought the PL experience that he asked for) AND the momentum from a successful promotion campaign - all of which have been unavailable to RVN.
Whilst the data may indicate that we were doing just about enough to stay enough, the performances were not. I mentioned a while back that of the 24 halves of football under Cooper in the PL, we probably played 'well' in 4 of them - that's not sustainable at PL level. Some of the performances under Cooper were truly dire - worse than even Taylor or Rodgers at their worst. The Everton game still gives me nightmares.
So yes, if you want to go on data and data alone, we might have just about stayed up under him if, somehow, we managed to keep getting undeserved points from games we were mostly poor in. But eventually, the results would have caught up with the performances.
Coincidentally, of the 8 games we have under RVN, how many points do you think Cooper would have managed? I think we would have lost to West Ham and Brighton. We might have got a point from Wolves. I can't see the Newcastle, Man City, Liverpool or Villa results being different - maybe we would have sh*thoused a point? And then against Palace, maybe we would have sneaked a horrible 1-0 or 2-1. So overall, probably the same tally, if not slightly lower.
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Of course we'll never know what Cooper would have achieved. For what it's worth I doubt we would have got anything more than we have now, although that's not taking into account the 'lucky' Cooper factor, so who knows? You do realise in your assessment you've given him a better potential return than RVN has achieved (5 points) . Also we'd be above Wolves in 18th only a point behind Ipswich and closer to Palace. If only.
'Lucky' Steve Cooper may not have lost Mads or N'didi either - the Newcastle and Brighton games would have been different under him.
Incidentally I'm not using any data to make my point other than the stuff that genuinely counts, ie goals scored and points gained. I couldn't use any of the other info that gets produced as that would just confirm what you are saying about us generally playing poorly and not deserving to have as many points as we did when Cooper was sacked.
Again, I reiterate that I'm not saying that Cooper would have kept us up, but I would certainly not have been putting any wager on him failing.
In regard to RVN not having a preseason, transfer window or momentum from last year, that is more a question for the management to answer as to why they made the change when they did - these are factors which no doubt were taken into careful consideration when making such a desperate move.
posted on 17/1/25
comment by Foxello - "a miserable Rodgers obsessed weirdo" (U6985)
posted 4 hours, 29 minutes ago
Also, I would say that perhaps a more logical question is not "would we be doing better under Cooper now?" but rather "would we be doing better if RVN was hired in the summer instead of Cooper?". For me, the answer is undeniably 'yes'. For starters, the transition from Maresca to RVN would have been smoother and the players would have been more on board with it (they clearly disliked Cooper, as evident from Vardy's reaction to being subbed and the 'we miss you Enzo' party situation). I also don't think that RVN would have sanctioned the moves for Skipp, Ayew, BDCR and Edouard - I think he would have prioritised players from abroad, probably from Netherlands, and would not have had a dogmatic insistence on PL experience.
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It's an interesting thought, although RVN probably wasn't available at the time. Bringing in players from the Netherlands may have been as bad - or worse - than the ones we have got, as difficult as that might be to envision.
posted on 17/1/25
comment by 98 Problems (and promotion ain’t one) (U12353)
posted 3 hours, 58 minutes ago
I think Foxello is bang on there Nuneaton. It’s not comparable because RVN has lost arguably his 2 best players - Mads and Fatawu and also lost Ndidi.
If Cooper had this team I don’t see how the results would have been any better - perhaps some of the games might have been tighter, I’m not sure
Fatawu was the reason we turned it around against Southampton - without him we weren’t winning that game in my view. It turned when he came off the bench. His loss is absolutely huge and Cooper wasn’t even using him properly
Imagine if Cooper didn’t have Mads for any of his matches. Totally different outcome
Where I do agree with you is that the fans are incredibly forgiving of RVN in a way that they weren’t with Cooper. This is wrong. RVN has major question marks over his use of Buononotte, why the goals have dried up, our lack of cutting edge and our defensive mistakes
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As I've surmised above, 'Lucky' Steve Cooper may not have lost either Mads or N'Didi as the matches they got injured in would have played out differently. Imagine instead how many more points we might have if Mads had been available?
I'd like to agree that Fatawu is a huge loss, but in the weird fantasy world of Cooper still being our manager, how much would he be playing?
I think the fans have cut RVN a lot of slack because he was a great player, speaks well, and seems to have the team playing in what generally looks like a reasonable way. Also having a midfield that allows Palace to saunter through the middle and past our CB statue to open the scoring, or being unable to give JJ a desperately needed break is as much down to Rudders as RVN.