"People keep saying authorities aren't doing anything there but that's complete nonsense"


I take it you didn't read the report I posted? Or do you have another source to the contrary?

Comment deleted by Site Moderator

TOOR - You want me to take your word that Georgia isn't a backwards place with no electricity etc. but if I do take your word, doesn't that go against your philosophy of not believing something till I see it myself? You can't have it both ways.

Sometimes you have to believe things you haven't witnessed for yourself because the vast majority of the world exists without my experiencing it. I can't see oxygen but I believe it exists only because someone has told me it does!

comment by johnsonsbaby (U10461)
posted 38 seconds ago
TOOR - You want me to take your word that Georgia isn't a backwards place with no electricity etc. but if I do take your word, doesn't that go against your philosophy of not believing something till I see it myself? You can't have it both ways.
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I'm not saying I want you to believe it. I'm giving an example of why I don't believe things like this, when I have seen the contrary.

"I'm not saying I want you to believe it. I'm giving an example of why I don't believe things like this, when I have seen the contrary. "

And someone else who has been there may tell me it is a backwards place. Then who or what do I believe. I tell you what I do. I store both pieces of information and should I want to go there ever myself, I will find out and be able to pass on my information. Then the next person who wants to know will have 3 reports to base their judgment on. It's how things work. Not everyone who believes a news item is a sheep, some are, some aren't. For me it depends on what is being talked about. We more than anyone have seen the spin placed on the Suarez/Evra case to see just who blindly believes and who puts at least a bit of efffort into research.

Anyway mate are you pleased a fellow countryman is in charge of our club?

comment by johnsonsbaby (U10461)
posted 1 hour, 21 minutes ago
"I'm not saying I want you to believe it. I'm giving an example of why I don't believe things like this, when I have seen the contrary. "

And someone else who has been there may tell me it is a backwards place. Then who or what do I believe. I tell you what I do. I store both pieces of information and should I want to go there ever myself, I will find out and be able to pass on my information.
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Exactly and that's what everybody should do and the point I was making. Instead of letting themselves be brainwashed by a one-sided documentary.

"comment by johnsonsbaby (U10461)
posted 1 hour, 14 minutes ago
Anyway mate are you pleased a fellow countryman is in charge of our club?"

I'm happy for him, being a fellow countryman, however his nationality didn't come into it for me, I just wanted the best for my club. I don't think he is the best but I like his style and the tactical knowledge he possesses and I am optimistic for the season ahead.

Was talking to a Polish friend this morning, he said Poland is in outrage after the BBC programme was shown, in Polish in their country, whilst professors went over it and disgust why the BBC portrayed it this way.

There was footage taken from many years ago, in league games between rival cities. This sort of violence happens here and in fact they concluded that the UK is the birthplace of this sort of violence.

They explained how the BBC had successfully looked around for footage and even went as far back as they had to, to find such footage. Also they explained how they left out all the good points, the good interviews and sensationalised it and how they could goto the UK and take a few isolated incidents and make it into a UK has a racism, or violence problem.

All good points if you ask me and all points I raised when this nonsense first came out.

Too bad the sheep just followed it without getting both sides of the story, or even some kind of knowledge of the subject. This just shows how easily lead the British public are.

discussed*

There'sOnlyOneReds

Ah!! so you saying Panorama spout nonsense? and everyone that believes what they saw are sheep?

comment by RED666 (U6562)
posted 2 seconds ago
There'sOnlyOneReds

Ah!! so you saying Panorama spout nonsense? and everyone that believes what they saw are sheep?
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No. I'm saying they sensationalise things, like the rest of the media, in order to get custom. I'm saying they set an agenda and place points in their argument which prove that agenda, without using the whole story.

I'm saying people in this country are too easily led, without taking in both sides of an argument, or even educating themselves on the subject and making their own opinions.

There'sOnlyOneReds

I'm saying they sensationalise things

I'm saying they set an agenda and place points in their argument which prove that agenda, without using the whole story.

I'm saying people in this country are too easily led, without taking in both sides of an argument, or even educating themselves on the subject and making their own opinions.
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Very well put my friend.

And don't forget this is the same Panorama that everyone (i'm not saying you did) believed when they tried to show Jason had exploited his father's position as Manchester United manager to set up transfer deals.

comment by RED666 (U6562)
posted 3 minutes ago
There'sOnlyOneReds

I'm saying they sensationalise things

I'm saying they set an agenda and place points in their argument which prove that agenda, without using the whole story.

I'm saying people in this country are too easily led, without taking in both sides of an argument, or even educating themselves on the subject and making their own opinions.
=============================
Very well put my friend.

And don't forget this is the same Panorama that everyone (i'm not saying you did) believed when they tried to show Jason had exploited his father's position as Manchester United manager to set up transfer deals.
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I wish I could have got odds on betfair for you coming out with that paragraph, I just knew it was coming!

Anyhow, I didn't see it, nor do I know any information about it.

There'sOnlyOneReds

I wish I could have got odds on betfair for you coming out with that paragraph, I just knew it was coming!
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fantasticooooooooooooooo you should of gone to ladbrokes.

Well when you say how one sided Panorama are I just had to stick in there fella as many Liverpool fans even today still mention it,

<Cheers>

"Too bad the sheep just followed it without getting both sides of the story, or even some kind of knowledge of the subject. This just shows how easily lead the British public are."

Both sides of the story? So speaking to a Polish guy/girl about their opinions on a TV show aired in Poland constitutes both sides of the story? And research? Do you not think that s/he would have their own bias? A TV show your own logic and previous arguments could so easily be applied too - broadcaster agenda and fitting the story to it? It sounds like you are easily led mate...


Take your blinkers off mate. You accuse people of following blindly, yet are apparently doing exactly the same yourself!! Read the official report from the European Commission. You'll find the sports section on page 27, the opening sentence being "ECRI is aware that racism among football fans is a major problem in Poland."

(http://www.coe.int/t/dghl/monitoring/ecri/Country-by-country/Poland/POL-CbC-IV-2010-018-ENG.pdf)

comment by 3mustgetbeers (U10120)
posted 5 minutes ago
"Too bad the sheep just followed it without getting both sides of the story, or even some kind of knowledge of the subject. This just shows how easily lead the British public are."

Both sides of the story? So speaking to a Polish guy/girl about their opinions on a TV show aired in Poland constitutes both sides of the story? And research? Do you not think that s/he would have their own bias?
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No. Why do you say that? I'd say visiting the country and looking up previous matches, would be a good way to get both sides. I did that.

You're a sheep in the massive flock that is the UK. Open your eyes. Do your own research, make your own opinions.

Why do you say that

Because your last comment starts "Was talking to a Polish friend this morning..."

Yes, visiting a country provides a good overview of a place - but that is all it is, an overview. I would say the report is more comprehensive than a holiday; the Council of Europe generally are a little more thorough.

comment by 3mustgetbeers (U10120)
posted 2 minutes ago
Why do you say that

Because your last comment starts "Was talking to a Polish friend this morning..."

Yes, visiting a country provides a good overview of a place - but that is all it is, an overview. I would say the report is more comprehensive than a holiday; the Council of Europe generally are a little more thorough.
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I think you're misunderstanding the debate. Nobody is saying there aren't racial problems in Poland, or even here for that matter. I was talking about the one-sided propaganda the BBC Panarama programme ran with, which included Sol Campbell telling people to stay at home as they'll come home in a coffin!

It's ridiculous advice based on a one-sided view. These countries have been working round the clock to get ready for this occasion and you can bet your bottom dollar their have intelligence on these know groups, you know, the kind we have here also? And will be acting on this intelligence during the Euro's.

I've been to Poland and there are black people, Indian, arab's and all types of races there and I have never seen or heard anything which suggests Poland has major racism issues.

I have went through games Poland have played against countries who are known to be other than white in race and have searched the internet and haven't found one incident of racism.

I questioned a few Poles on this and they explained that there is no such thing, however there are some groups, like the groups that were here in the 80s and early 90s who fight over club rivalry and that includes violence towards other races.

He explained how the country is in outrage how the BBC portrayed them and cut out interviews which put the country in a good light. Also how hypocritical the UK is, seeing as it was them who basically invented this type of thing.

So for me, there are groups, like there are here and they will be dealt with, like the are here, when the need arises. However to portray it as a racist country, like the BBC did, was scandalous. It could be suggested there was an agenda behind portraying them in this light with them wanting people to be spending their money in London, during the Olympics instead of in Poland, during the Euro's.

But again, the sheep won't look beyond what was said in a one-sided documentary.

TooR

I feel you are trying to potray an image that Poland, Ukraine and UK have problems which are split equally, this is not the case. Yes, I know there are racist groups here in the UK - you could also say in 1939, "yes, Germany has discriminatory groups, but so does the UK". Ok, a bit extreme and crude, what I'm saying is, you're seemingly moving to the other end of the spectrum from sensationalism, as though there is some sort of perfect equilibrium between the 3 countries. Had you read any of the reports you would see this is simply inaccurate; particularly the football section - which is what this debate is about.

"You can bet your bottom dollar their have intelligence on these know groups" - can you? Because this really is a point that concerns me - the authorities, particularly in the Ukraine. Re-classifying crimes to remove the race element is a "frequent occurrence" and racist crime statistics only account for "citizens"; coupled they lead to wholly inaccurate figures. "No comprehensive civil and administrative antidiscrimination provisions ... nor are there any such provisions on providing for effective mechanisms of enforcement and redress." Committees disbanded which dealt with rehabilitating racism, their functions have not been transferred to other institutes. Tolerance has "declined", attacks are "increasing". "Deeply concerned [by]... frequent misconduct by police officers". The report goes as far as recommending that Ukraine adopt new laws. So it isn't simply police turning a blind eye, the incompetency of an agency or corruption in courts; the laws either aren't in place to adequately deal with the matter, or are obsolete and not in line with proven models.

Like it or not, problems are (possibly) deeper rooted, and definitely more visible in the Ukraine than the UK. The same can be said about Poland, though not on the same scale. It is written in black and white in an independant report. I am not saying it is as bad a picture as that painted by the BBC, likewise it isn't as homologous as the UK as you make out.

You seem confident that the Euros will go without problems of this nature, I sincerely hope you are right

And before a ball is kicked it has already started.

Absolutely disgusted.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18363736

So where is There'sOnlyOneReds now in his ambassador role for Poland and the Ukraine

RED666



Show some decorum. Its a sensitive topic and should be treated so. You're trying to turn this into an "I told you so" thread; I just think, given the subject matter, its a little distasteful to be used (literally) to take the morale high ground and gloat.

TooR's points are pretty much all completely valid. There were what, 20(ish) fans chanting abuse at a training session? Only a few seasons ago, I was watching a Chelsea vs Spurs match and could hear the Shed chanting "Gas a Jew" to "Ag-ger- doo" - and there were many more fans chanting!!


TooR

Going back to a previous point about authorities; I find it quite strange that following the session van Marwijk stated (somewhat cynically) "At least now we know what we can encounter" & that it was "very atmospheric.". The Dutch FA are apparently not taking it any further & now van Marwijk is unsure of what he heard?? UEFA shouldn't have to wait for a country to lodge a complaint before investigating; they need to grow a set and realise European Championship is their gig, its up to them to manage it responsibly. No investigation and a quiet life, hoping this is a one off incident is typical "sweep it under the rug" UEFA; I wouldn't be at all suprised if they "persuaded" the Dutch FA to let it lie. The coach appears to be towing the party line, though I really can't see van Bommel doing the same. How can they expect to "change" Polands/Ukraines views (as they stated) when put on an embarrassing show like this.

3mustgetbeers

Point taken, it is very sad to see and hear, but what gets me is would england of got the euros if anyone thought we were that racist

Well we were awarded Euro 96 despite John Barnes and the like having bananas thrown at them only a few years earlier.

People just like thinking of UEFA and FIFA as the devil, when in reality, although not perfect, they are nowhere near as anti-English as people like to make out.

righteous1

Well we were awarded Euro 96 despite John Barnes and the like having bananas thrown at them only a few years earlier.
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Yeah your correct, but the bananagate was 8 yrs before the 96 euros, and the years leading up to 96 I don't believe there were any more issues as blatant as that, where as in Poland and the Ukraine its been ongoing for years and still is!!!!

As for FIFA and UEFA being the devils they seem to have ago at the English game when they can, look at this year Blatter comes out with some rubbish to do with racism which angered the WORLD of football, low and be hold FIFA hold a press conference in Africa and the guy says England need to get their house in order regarding Suarez and Terry. why only England when the world of football were making comments!!!