RedBlackandWhiteside (U2335)
posted 1 minute ago
I understand you are quite old, and grew up during the rougher footballing years, but you are also pig ignorant.
***
Im not 'quite old', neither am I ignorant. I am just not reacting to a TV programme shown to destabalise a competition that takes place in a few days time.
__________________________________
It isn't just panarama though is it? It's players families not going, the forign office warning people, Sky Sports doing peices on it, BBC doing pieces on it.
Like I said, from my personal experiences with Eastern Europeans who live in England, I wouldn't go there.
My point is quite simple that people are horrified that Euro12 is taking place in a country with a know holligan element. i am trying to make people look closer to home and highlight that England, the Kings of Hooliganism held Euro96 not long after we had been banned.
---------------------------------------------
Yes but Hillbrough had a massive impact on English football in general, that day changed everything here, the grounds, the people coming to the grounds everything. So the comparison is way off the mark
Sorry but when you apply for the biggest western sporting event in the world to be held in your country, you have to expect and prepare for western spectators to go to your country.
**
the World Cup isn't a western sporting event. Its a world wide sporting event.
Its not the first time Panorama have done something like this.
---------------------------------
Waht like telling the truth? However unpalatable it might be?
I might be wrong because I was only 7 for Euro 96, but the way I see it is that the problem in England was general hooliganism, which meant if you generally didn't want trouble, you wouldn't get it and vice versa.
Whereas in this situation, whether you want trouble or not has no bearing on the situation and there'll be far more innocent people getting hurt purely for the colour of their skin.
Hillsborough had nothing to do with football hooliganism. Do you mean Hysel?
RedBlackandWhiteside (U2335)
posted 3 minutes ago
Sorry but when you apply for the biggest western sporting event in the world to be held in your country, you have to expect and prepare for western spectators to go to your country.
**
the World Cup isn't a western sporting event. Its a world wide sporting event.
_____________________
No, but it is the biggest even in western sport, and certainly isn't the biggest for the middle east.
comment by BusbysBabes (U9083)
Sorry but when you apply for the biggest western sporting event in the world to be held in your country, you have to expect and prepare for western spectators to go to your country.
======================
The World Cup isn't a Western sporting event. Key word, World Cup
We aren't going to live there, we are going to go and watch a game of football, and now they give to a country who ban a lot of things western people do every day, including their sexuality, drinking and eating habbits, the clothes people wear.
------------
Exactly, so why should they change just for a football game? I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying, but it's the irony that makes me laugh the most. I still find it stupid that the World Cup is there. I mean, we know what the country is like, it's not like it woke up and decided no alcohol, no homosexuals etc... Everyone knew that.
I just wish some teams had the balls to go. We're not coming, and the location was changed. Oh well, money talks!
ManUtdDaredevil (U9612)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by BusbysBabes (U9083)
Sorry but when you apply for the biggest western sporting event in the world to be held in your country, you have to expect and prepare for western spectators to go to your country.
======================
The World Cup isn't a Western sporting event. Key word, World Cup
_________________
Yes, I meant the biggest sporting event in the west.
Subway only sell halal meat now for Christ sakes, so people expect non Muslims to eat a meat sacrificed for a god we don't believe in (most unknowingly) yet we can't have a pint to watch the football?
comment by RedBlackandWhiteside (U2335)
posted 52 minutes ago
Pea
Im not moving any goalposts.
My point is quite simple that people are horrified that Euro12 is taking place in a country with a know holligan element. i am trying to make people look closer to home and highlight that England, the Kings of Hooliganism held Euro96 not long after we had been banned.
But its ok because its us.
if you want a scrap at Euro12 you will get one. If you dont you wont.
_________________
I think you've missed the point. The sort of trouble being predicted as happening in Ukraine is not specifically hooligan on hooligan, it's racist attacks in particular or indeed those against jewish fans such as those from Spurs.
You are being very naive and a little irresponsible suggesting black fans and those of ethnic origin will be fine as long as they dont look for trouble themselves. Would wearing a Spurs top to the Euros or having the club name of your England flag count as wanting a scrap?
This attitude of only trouble will get trouble is certainly not what I've seen reported previously such as on SSN, or read previously in the papers or online, which seems pretty similar to what people are describing as being mentioned in the Panorama program.
Englands hooligan past is well known, but I just dont buy that at the peak of Ukraines problems, Naz1 salutes, racist attacks, death threats, anti-semitic crimes, foreign office advice from multiple countries about travel specifically if you are not white is the same or close to the same as attitudes in England post the European club ban and post Taylor. Definitely not by 1996 as well, which would have been freely attended without significant concern by every nations fans, no matter their skin colour or religious beliefs.
No, but it is the biggest even in western sport, and certainly isn't the biggest for the middle east.
***
Well, what is the biggest event in the middle east then? Football is huge in the Middle East.
WC isnt the biggest event in USA, Canada, Australia.....
you mean Europe dont you?
Darkphoenix (U11503)
posted 2 minutes ago
We aren't going to live there, we are going to go and watch a game of football, and now they give to a country who ban a lot of things western people do every day, including their sexuality, drinking and eating habbits, the clothes people wear.
------------
Exactly, so why should they change just for a football game? I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying, but it's the irony that makes me laugh the most. I still find it stupid that the World Cup is there. I mean, we know what the country is like, it's not like it woke up and decided no alcohol, no homosexuals etc... Everyone knew that.
I just wish some teams had the balls to go. We're not coming, and the location was changed. Oh well, money talks!
______________________________
Like I said, people have certainly forced their views and opinions on British nationals.
Exactly, so why should they change just for a football game?
Because they applied for it. Nobody made them host a sporting event in which the majority of countries support is from the west. In fact, I'm assuming that's exactly why they did it.
dBlackandWhiteside (U2335)
posted 1 minute ago
No, but it is the biggest even in western sport, and certainly isn't the biggest for the middle east.
***
Well, what is the biggest event in the middle east then? Football is huge in the Middle East.
WC isnt the biggest event in USA, Canada, Australia.....
you mean Europe dont you?
____________________________________
most of South America too.
It is the biggest sporting even for the west as viewing figures suggest, and having been to Oz and it is pretty big over there. Probably as big as the cricket and ozzy rules. Different people there like different things.
It is the biggest sporting even for the west as viewing figures suggest.
***
so it is in S America, Africa, Middle East, Far East...
(none of these are western) all with different cultures too.
The WC is not a western tournament. What don't you understand by this? Non western countries have a right to host it just as much as western ones. When visiting a foreign country you respect and abide by their rules and culture, as they would if it was in the UK. If you cant do that then stay at home and watch it on TV.
The WC is not a western tournament. What don't you understand by this? Non western countries have a right to host it just as much as western ones.
----------------------------------
They certainly do, however, Qatar isn't even a fooballing nation and even if it was with a population 1/4 of that in scotland they shouldn't be allowed to hold it. Chrit you can't even get enough hotles in the copuntry for the players and backroom staff never mind the fans, and dear me it's going to be 45 degrees. When some fecking idiot suggests that the rest of Europe move their seasons to accommodte this the big european teams will merely tell FIFA to feckoff.
Paint it up anyway you like the WC shouldn't be in Qatar, not for booze of sexuality rules but just because common sense says so
DependableDennis:
Hillbrough had a massive impact on English football in general, that day changed everything here, the grounds, the people coming to the grounds everything. So the comparison is way off the mark
__________
comment by RedBlackandWhiteside (U2335)
posted 42 minutes ago
Hillsborough had nothing to do with football hooliganism. Do you mean Hysel?
________________
I think DependableDennis was right to mention Hillsborough, because although you are right in what you say above re Hillsborough/Hooliganism, the Taylor report was because of Hillsborough, and the Taylor report is what changed the stadiums, made them all seater, more family friendly, easier to police, started to alter the type of person that went to games etc, so it was beneficial in helping tackle hooliganism as well.
The implication of this report was also what helped us get Euro 96 because it meant we had enough all seater stadiums of the right capacity to hold the bigger Euros.
Paint it up anyway you like the WC shouldn't be in Qatar, not for booze of sexuality rules but just because common sense says so
**
I agree with this totally. It shouldnt be in Qatar because it doesnt have the football heritage or infrastructure.
The fact that some 'western' people cant cope with Islamic culture shouldn't be a deciding factor where it is played.
comment by RedBlackandWhiteside (U2335)
posted 2 minutes ago
Paint it up anyway you like the WC shouldn't be in Qatar, not for booze of sexuality rules but just because common sense says so
**
I agree with this totally. It shouldnt be in Qatar because it doesnt have the football heritage or infrastructure.
The fact that some 'western' people cant cope with Islamic culture shouldn't be a deciding factor where it is played.
______________
I sort of think you are both right. However maybe the crux of the debate isnt about whether the fans can cope with their culture, it's more that FIFA giving the competition to a country (forget allegations of bribery for a second) that yes doesnt have a football culture or infrastructure, or even simply has an almost dangerous climate for football, but more importantly is a country that imprisons people for homosexual activity and gives them lashings for it, or as Amnesty International state, the police are reluctant to treat violence against women, who are essentially second class citizens sometimes treated worse than dogs. There are also reports of torture and other forms of cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment.
This is hardly a place where the 'football family' should be taken and is not about whether a western fan can have a beer or generally accept islamic culture. It's far more serious than that.
Pea I would take those reports with a pinch of salt. Qatar is a great place and I lived and worked there. Women aren't treated as second class citizens and play significant roles in organisations.
I'm not saying it doesn't happen but it isn't considered the norm. Saudi Arabia is the country where you will see such abhorrent behaviour
And to think, their forgathers sacrificed their lives fighting Hitler to secure these morons freedom.
I meant in terms of the way crimes against women are treated versus the same behaviour for men. Women are not treated equally in Qatar, and are discriminated against specifically in some laws. AI is pretty credible.
http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/qatar/report-2011
Also homosexual behaviour is illegal with a max 5year prison sentence, and flogging. Here's a UN source http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/type,QUERYRESPONSE,,QAT,3deceae24,0.html
I'd be surprised if Qatar is not moving in the right direction, but I think FIFA (and for that matter the olympics) should be more considered about who they give these events to as it can give credibility / indirect acceptance to some horrendous behaviour
It isn't just panarama though is it? It's players families not going, the forign office warning people, Sky Sports doing peices on it, BBC doing pieces on it.
**
this isnt the time to have this debate, a week before it starts. This should have been done years ago.
RedBlackandWhiteside (U2335)
Don't put words in my mouth, I explained what I meant by the west's biggest sporting event, I certainly don't expect it to be in Europe or claim it is anybodies. The point was a lot of spectators from the western world do go the World Cup and that anybody applying to host the competition should be able to cater for all.
And parts of South America certainly are part of the western world.
"In the contemporary cultural meaning, the Western World includes many countries of Europe as well as many countries of European colonial origin in the Americas and Oceania, such as the United States of America, Brazil, Mexico, Canada, Australia, Argentina, Chile, etc."
How you think it can be okay to host a competition involving all walks of life with no alcohol, 45 degree heat, no infrastructure, homosexuality being against the law where females have to cover their body is beyond me.
What would they think of the best part of the world cup? That being semi naked Dutch and Brazilian girls drinking larger and dancing in the stands.
How you think it can be okay to host a competition involving all walks of life with no alcohol, 45 degree heat, no infrastructure, homosexuality being against the law where females have to cover their body is beyond me.
**
i think you might find that Qatar isn't quite the place you are lead to believe it is.
I have no problem with the Islamic bit. I don't agree with it but It is the way it is. It is hardly the Taliban though. But I agree that the lack of football infrastructure would prevent me from awarding the WC to Qatar. two different issues. You don't really need alcohol too. You cant watch English games drinking alcohol.
I still don't believe that the WC is the biggest sporting event in USA Canada, Australia.
Yes it is in S American Countries. But do you also worry about human rights in say Brazil, where the next WC is held.?
Sign in if you want to comment
BBC Panorama
Page 3 of 4
posted on 29/5/12
RedBlackandWhiteside (U2335)
posted 1 minute ago
I understand you are quite old, and grew up during the rougher footballing years, but you are also pig ignorant.
***
Im not 'quite old', neither am I ignorant. I am just not reacting to a TV programme shown to destabalise a competition that takes place in a few days time.
__________________________________
It isn't just panarama though is it? It's players families not going, the forign office warning people, Sky Sports doing peices on it, BBC doing pieces on it.
Like I said, from my personal experiences with Eastern Europeans who live in England, I wouldn't go there.
posted on 29/5/12
My point is quite simple that people are horrified that Euro12 is taking place in a country with a know holligan element. i am trying to make people look closer to home and highlight that England, the Kings of Hooliganism held Euro96 not long after we had been banned.
---------------------------------------------
Yes but Hillbrough had a massive impact on English football in general, that day changed everything here, the grounds, the people coming to the grounds everything. So the comparison is way off the mark
posted on 29/5/12
Sorry but when you apply for the biggest western sporting event in the world to be held in your country, you have to expect and prepare for western spectators to go to your country.
**
the World Cup isn't a western sporting event. Its a world wide sporting event.
posted on 29/5/12
Its not the first time Panorama have done something like this.
---------------------------------
Waht like telling the truth? However unpalatable it might be?
posted on 29/5/12
I might be wrong because I was only 7 for Euro 96, but the way I see it is that the problem in England was general hooliganism, which meant if you generally didn't want trouble, you wouldn't get it and vice versa.
Whereas in this situation, whether you want trouble or not has no bearing on the situation and there'll be far more innocent people getting hurt purely for the colour of their skin.
posted on 29/5/12
Hillsborough had nothing to do with football hooliganism. Do you mean Hysel?
posted on 29/5/12
RedBlackandWhiteside (U2335)
posted 3 minutes ago
Sorry but when you apply for the biggest western sporting event in the world to be held in your country, you have to expect and prepare for western spectators to go to your country.
**
the World Cup isn't a western sporting event. Its a world wide sporting event.
_____________________
No, but it is the biggest even in western sport, and certainly isn't the biggest for the middle east.
posted on 29/5/12
comment by BusbysBabes (U9083)
Sorry but when you apply for the biggest western sporting event in the world to be held in your country, you have to expect and prepare for western spectators to go to your country.
======================
The World Cup isn't a Western sporting event. Key word, World Cup
posted on 29/5/12
We aren't going to live there, we are going to go and watch a game of football, and now they give to a country who ban a lot of things western people do every day, including their sexuality, drinking and eating habbits, the clothes people wear.
------------
Exactly, so why should they change just for a football game? I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying, but it's the irony that makes me laugh the most. I still find it stupid that the World Cup is there. I mean, we know what the country is like, it's not like it woke up and decided no alcohol, no homosexuals etc... Everyone knew that.
I just wish some teams had the balls to go. We're not coming, and the location was changed. Oh well, money talks!
posted on 29/5/12
ManUtdDaredevil (U9612)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by BusbysBabes (U9083)
Sorry but when you apply for the biggest western sporting event in the world to be held in your country, you have to expect and prepare for western spectators to go to your country.
======================
The World Cup isn't a Western sporting event. Key word, World Cup
_________________
Yes, I meant the biggest sporting event in the west.
Subway only sell halal meat now for Christ sakes, so people expect non Muslims to eat a meat sacrificed for a god we don't believe in (most unknowingly) yet we can't have a pint to watch the football?
posted on 29/5/12
comment by RedBlackandWhiteside (U2335)
posted 52 minutes ago
Pea
Im not moving any goalposts.
My point is quite simple that people are horrified that Euro12 is taking place in a country with a know holligan element. i am trying to make people look closer to home and highlight that England, the Kings of Hooliganism held Euro96 not long after we had been banned.
But its ok because its us.
if you want a scrap at Euro12 you will get one. If you dont you wont.
_________________
I think you've missed the point. The sort of trouble being predicted as happening in Ukraine is not specifically hooligan on hooligan, it's racist attacks in particular or indeed those against jewish fans such as those from Spurs.
You are being very naive and a little irresponsible suggesting black fans and those of ethnic origin will be fine as long as they dont look for trouble themselves. Would wearing a Spurs top to the Euros or having the club name of your England flag count as wanting a scrap?
This attitude of only trouble will get trouble is certainly not what I've seen reported previously such as on SSN, or read previously in the papers or online, which seems pretty similar to what people are describing as being mentioned in the Panorama program.
Englands hooligan past is well known, but I just dont buy that at the peak of Ukraines problems, Naz1 salutes, racist attacks, death threats, anti-semitic crimes, foreign office advice from multiple countries about travel specifically if you are not white is the same or close to the same as attitudes in England post the European club ban and post Taylor. Definitely not by 1996 as well, which would have been freely attended without significant concern by every nations fans, no matter their skin colour or religious beliefs.
posted on 29/5/12
No, but it is the biggest even in western sport, and certainly isn't the biggest for the middle east.
***
Well, what is the biggest event in the middle east then? Football is huge in the Middle East.
WC isnt the biggest event in USA, Canada, Australia.....
you mean Europe dont you?
posted on 29/5/12
Darkphoenix (U11503)
posted 2 minutes ago
We aren't going to live there, we are going to go and watch a game of football, and now they give to a country who ban a lot of things western people do every day, including their sexuality, drinking and eating habbits, the clothes people wear.
------------
Exactly, so why should they change just for a football game? I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying, but it's the irony that makes me laugh the most. I still find it stupid that the World Cup is there. I mean, we know what the country is like, it's not like it woke up and decided no alcohol, no homosexuals etc... Everyone knew that.
I just wish some teams had the balls to go. We're not coming, and the location was changed. Oh well, money talks!
______________________________
Like I said, people have certainly forced their views and opinions on British nationals.
Exactly, so why should they change just for a football game?
Because they applied for it. Nobody made them host a sporting event in which the majority of countries support is from the west. In fact, I'm assuming that's exactly why they did it.
posted on 29/5/12
dBlackandWhiteside (U2335)
posted 1 minute ago
No, but it is the biggest even in western sport, and certainly isn't the biggest for the middle east.
***
Well, what is the biggest event in the middle east then? Football is huge in the Middle East.
WC isnt the biggest event in USA, Canada, Australia.....
you mean Europe dont you?
____________________________________
most of South America too.
It is the biggest sporting even for the west as viewing figures suggest, and having been to Oz and it is pretty big over there. Probably as big as the cricket and ozzy rules. Different people there like different things.
posted on 29/5/12
It is the biggest sporting even for the west as viewing figures suggest.
***
so it is in S America, Africa, Middle East, Far East...
(none of these are western) all with different cultures too.
The WC is not a western tournament. What don't you understand by this? Non western countries have a right to host it just as much as western ones. When visiting a foreign country you respect and abide by their rules and culture, as they would if it was in the UK. If you cant do that then stay at home and watch it on TV.
posted on 29/5/12
The WC is not a western tournament. What don't you understand by this? Non western countries have a right to host it just as much as western ones.
----------------------------------
They certainly do, however, Qatar isn't even a fooballing nation and even if it was with a population 1/4 of that in scotland they shouldn't be allowed to hold it. Chrit you can't even get enough hotles in the copuntry for the players and backroom staff never mind the fans, and dear me it's going to be 45 degrees. When some fecking idiot suggests that the rest of Europe move their seasons to accommodte this the big european teams will merely tell FIFA to feckoff.
Paint it up anyway you like the WC shouldn't be in Qatar, not for booze of sexuality rules but just because common sense says so
posted on 29/5/12
DependableDennis:
Hillbrough had a massive impact on English football in general, that day changed everything here, the grounds, the people coming to the grounds everything. So the comparison is way off the mark
__________
comment by RedBlackandWhiteside (U2335)
posted 42 minutes ago
Hillsborough had nothing to do with football hooliganism. Do you mean Hysel?
________________
I think DependableDennis was right to mention Hillsborough, because although you are right in what you say above re Hillsborough/Hooliganism, the Taylor report was because of Hillsborough, and the Taylor report is what changed the stadiums, made them all seater, more family friendly, easier to police, started to alter the type of person that went to games etc, so it was beneficial in helping tackle hooliganism as well.
The implication of this report was also what helped us get Euro 96 because it meant we had enough all seater stadiums of the right capacity to hold the bigger Euros.
posted on 29/5/12
Paint it up anyway you like the WC shouldn't be in Qatar, not for booze of sexuality rules but just because common sense says so
**
I agree with this totally. It shouldnt be in Qatar because it doesnt have the football heritage or infrastructure.
The fact that some 'western' people cant cope with Islamic culture shouldn't be a deciding factor where it is played.
posted on 29/5/12
comment by RedBlackandWhiteside (U2335)
posted 2 minutes ago
Paint it up anyway you like the WC shouldn't be in Qatar, not for booze of sexuality rules but just because common sense says so
**
I agree with this totally. It shouldnt be in Qatar because it doesnt have the football heritage or infrastructure.
The fact that some 'western' people cant cope with Islamic culture shouldn't be a deciding factor where it is played.
______________
I sort of think you are both right. However maybe the crux of the debate isnt about whether the fans can cope with their culture, it's more that FIFA giving the competition to a country (forget allegations of bribery for a second) that yes doesnt have a football culture or infrastructure, or even simply has an almost dangerous climate for football, but more importantly is a country that imprisons people for homosexual activity and gives them lashings for it, or as Amnesty International state, the police are reluctant to treat violence against women, who are essentially second class citizens sometimes treated worse than dogs. There are also reports of torture and other forms of cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment.
This is hardly a place where the 'football family' should be taken and is not about whether a western fan can have a beer or generally accept islamic culture. It's far more serious than that.
posted on 29/5/12
Pea I would take those reports with a pinch of salt. Qatar is a great place and I lived and worked there. Women aren't treated as second class citizens and play significant roles in organisations.
I'm not saying it doesn't happen but it isn't considered the norm. Saudi Arabia is the country where you will see such abhorrent behaviour
posted on 29/5/12
And to think, their forgathers sacrificed their lives fighting Hitler to secure these morons freedom.
posted on 29/5/12
I meant in terms of the way crimes against women are treated versus the same behaviour for men. Women are not treated equally in Qatar, and are discriminated against specifically in some laws. AI is pretty credible.
http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/qatar/report-2011
Also homosexual behaviour is illegal with a max 5year prison sentence, and flogging. Here's a UN source http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/type,QUERYRESPONSE,,QAT,3deceae24,0.html
I'd be surprised if Qatar is not moving in the right direction, but I think FIFA (and for that matter the olympics) should be more considered about who they give these events to as it can give credibility / indirect acceptance to some horrendous behaviour
posted on 29/5/12
It isn't just panarama though is it? It's players families not going, the forign office warning people, Sky Sports doing peices on it, BBC doing pieces on it.
**
this isnt the time to have this debate, a week before it starts. This should have been done years ago.
posted on 29/5/12
RedBlackandWhiteside (U2335)
Don't put words in my mouth, I explained what I meant by the west's biggest sporting event, I certainly don't expect it to be in Europe or claim it is anybodies. The point was a lot of spectators from the western world do go the World Cup and that anybody applying to host the competition should be able to cater for all.
And parts of South America certainly are part of the western world.
"In the contemporary cultural meaning, the Western World includes many countries of Europe as well as many countries of European colonial origin in the Americas and Oceania, such as the United States of America, Brazil, Mexico, Canada, Australia, Argentina, Chile, etc."
How you think it can be okay to host a competition involving all walks of life with no alcohol, 45 degree heat, no infrastructure, homosexuality being against the law where females have to cover their body is beyond me.
What would they think of the best part of the world cup? That being semi naked Dutch and Brazilian girls drinking larger and dancing in the stands.
posted on 29/5/12
How you think it can be okay to host a competition involving all walks of life with no alcohol, 45 degree heat, no infrastructure, homosexuality being against the law where females have to cover their body is beyond me.
**
i think you might find that Qatar isn't quite the place you are lead to believe it is.
I have no problem with the Islamic bit. I don't agree with it but It is the way it is. It is hardly the Taliban though. But I agree that the lack of football infrastructure would prevent me from awarding the WC to Qatar. two different issues. You don't really need alcohol too. You cant watch English games drinking alcohol.
I still don't believe that the WC is the biggest sporting event in USA Canada, Australia.
Yes it is in S American Countries. But do you also worry about human rights in say Brazil, where the next WC is held.?
Page 3 of 4