comment by Spurtle2 (U1608)
Arab
Even so Gerrard and Lampard have a fair degree of technical ability, they just haven't shown it for England for whatever reason, Neither did Scholes really.
----------------------------------
Sorry but I can't agree with that. Scholes was playing well for England and averaging a goal every 3 games. Then he starts getting moved about and his form dropped off. He was 27 at the time and his best years for England were wasted.
The problem is, the average fan would choose them as they don't know anything about football. I have met many fans that think Gerrard and Rooney are some sort of footballing gods, when in reality they're just good players. I know a Spurs fan that said Gerrard at his best was better than Messi and Ronaldo.
I wouldn't put Carrick in that bracket ether, but his style of play is similar. Scholes wasn't as bad for England as you make out. In the earlier part of his career he was good. He didn't play the same way then as he did now either, he's more suited now to international football than in his younger years, in my opinion.
I don't know how you can say these players aren't being overlooked when the only player in the squad with any decent technique is Rooney, even then it's not to European standards. Wilshere is there because he's really good, but I bet if Gerrard and Lampard were younger he wouldn't be starting.
England has a long way to go. Our problem is that we are too impatient to implement anything that doesn't breed instant success, and our club teams aren't geared towards helping the national teams in the same way the rest of the world are.
comment by Spurtle2 (U1608)
Arabian
Fair play. I forgot how good Scholes' record was for England as a midfielder. It obviously didn't help his own game being switched out to the left. If this was what led to his retirement though as has been suggested then I'd put question marks over his attitude.
--------------------------------------
Whether it did is debatable. He has always said it was for family reasons. There has also been a lot of rumour about that fact that he couldn't stand some of the more brash players in the squad and didn't like being around them.
posted 1 hour, 13 minutes ago
comment by honestlivpool_five_times (U1661)
posted 1 minute ago
Andy Carroll is in form and should play. Welbeck, whilst a good player, wouldn't be able to handle Roys tactics.
Carroll is better at holding up and ball and in the air. His link up play has also improved lately so I don't see why he shouldn't start.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
A few droplets leaked out after reading that biased, deluded post.
Tell us another!!
In fact, more recently, I think that Scholes was actually more outspoken and said that he quit because certain players put themselves before the team. Rather than play a simple pass they would instead opt for a long pass that they thought would make them look good. I believe he called them selfish and questioned their motives.
Keano also said recently that Scholes didn't like the circus around the England squad and the way certain players tried to call the shots - making demands.
"I think that Scholes was actually more outspoken and said that he quit because certain players put themselves before the team."
This was the problem I believe. He is a shy, modest family man, not one of these egotistical superstar footballers who love the limelight. He plays the game the same way too.
It’s a shame he’s never really been appreciated until the likes of Zidane, Xavi, Davids and co all said he is the best they have played against and they admire his style, and I include United fans in that. When you watch Scholes play, he is probably on par with Xavi, he would certainly flourish in the Barca team.
A few quotes from fellow pros...
Xavi: Paul Scholes is a role model. For me – and I really mean this – he's the best central midfielder I've seen in the last 15, 20 years.
I've spoken to Xabi Alonso about him. He's spectacular, he has it all: the last pass, goals, he's strong, he doesn't lose the ball, vision. If he'd been Spanish he might have been rated more highly. Players love him.
Socrates (Brazil): Good enough to play for Brazil. I love to watch Scholes, to see him pass, the boy with the red hair and the red shirt.
Zinedine Zidane: My toughest opponent? Scholes of Manchester. He is the complete midfielder. Scholes is undoubtedly the greatest midfielder of his generation.
Marcello Lippi: Paul Scholes would have been one of my first choices for putting together a great team – that goes to show how highly I have always rated him. An all-round midfielder who possesses quality and character in abundance.
Laurent Blanc: I tell anyone who asks me – Scholes is the best English player.
Sir Bobby Charlton: Many great players have worn the shirt of Manchester United. Players I worshipped, then lost with my youth in Munich.
Players like Denis Law and George Best who I enjoyed so much as team-mates and now, finally, players I have watched closely in the Alex Ferguson era. And in so many ways Scholes is my favourite.
Roy Keane: No celebrity bullshitttt, no self-promotion – an amazingly gifted player who remained an unaffected human being.
Sir Alex Ferguson: One of the greatest football brains Manchester United has ever had.
Edgar Davids: Everyone of us should emulate him. We can all learn from Paul Scholes, I am yet to come across such an intelligent footballer.
Ryan Giggs: I’d go for Scholesy as the club’s greatest ever player. I’ve seen him do things that no other player can do. The way he can control the tempo of games, and his range of passing, are both incredible.
We’ve seen over the years that players just haven’t been able to get near him. And you can’t forget his goals either.
Cesc Fabregas: For any football player in the Premiership, Scholes is a player you want to emulate. One player does not make a team but there is no doubt that the presence of some players add extra motivation and confidence.
And finally, the mane himself
Scholes on Scholes: When it's over I just want to be able to look in the mirror and say, 'Well, you were a half-decent player.' Sums him up really
Sven ruined Scholes. LW my bottom. They did it with Gerrard just so Lamps can amble around as well.
comment by Robbing_Hoody (U6374)
Sven ruined Scholes. LW my bottom. They did it with Gerrard just so Lamps can amble around as well.
-------------------------------------
The thin was, at that time, Gerrard was more willing to play a defensive game when paired with Scholes. The balance wasn't perfect, but he did stay back more and in the few games were paired together in the CM, I thought Gerrard and Scholes looked pretty good. I would have loved to have seen the pairing develop and Gerrard sacrifice his attacking tendencies to some extent. I am still of the opinion that Gerrard's finest performance in an England shirt was when we beat Germany 5-1 and he sat in the DM spot and was fantastic.
I preferred Hargreaves there and he has been a big miss. Scholes in the middle and Gerrard in SS would have been my preferance back then. Weak managers for 12 years has cost us dearly.
comment by Arab The King Fletcher (U10026)
I don't know how you can say these players aren't being overlooked when the only player in the squad with any decent technique is Rooney, even then it's not to European standards. Wilshere is there because he's really good, but I bet if Gerrard and Lampard were younger he wouldn't be starting.
--------------
This isn't true. Rooney's technique is not really any more impressive than Gerrard's or Lampards, he's just a better player than they are. To me it seems like some of the technique Rooney once had has been coached out of him, which is why he never tries to take players on any more.
Wilshere has technique too, and would have been in were he not injured.
Scholes has it too but has retired from international football and is 36/37. He's been asked to come out of retirement before and he's been coy on the issue.
After this you're left with what we have. I don't know if this was your point that there should have been more in the squad or not or whether you're bemoaning the lack of it that we have in general. If the latter then I agree totally, though like I say I think we're starting to realise it now in this country.
comment by Robbing_Hoody (U6374)
posted 1 hour, 22 minutes ago
I preferred Hargreaves there and he has been a big miss. Scholes in the middle and Gerrard in SS would have been my preferance back then. Weak managers for 12 years has cost us dearly.
----------------------
I'd have been happy with that too.
It's the latter. Rooney is not as technique good as he was. I still think he has more than Gerrard and Lampard, but from watching United over the years I can see it has regressed and he isn't as comfortable on the ball or in tight spaces as he used to be. It's the one reason I want us to sign a gifted playmaker and move him forward.
Wilshere has been learning from the system Wenger has implemented. I think had Rooney gone to Arsenal rather than United he'd have been a better player for it, but without the winning mentality and directness that Fergie gets out of his players.
If only Wenger and Fergie could simultaneously coach top English players, then I think they'd be a match for the top foreign talent.
My team to play France would be:
Hart
Johnson
Terry
Lescott/Cahill
Cole
Parker
Jones
Young
Gerrard
Welbeck
Carroll
Arab pretty much spot on.
A Wenger/Fergie hybrid would be a pretty strong combination. Nice attacking, fluid football with a winning mentality and strong defence. That's how Wenger was so successful earlier on because of that strong English defence and backbone he used to have.
Spurtle.
If the FA had any sense they'd try and get Wenger and Ferguson involved in the youth development of football in England.
It's great to see they're taking the Spanish model towards youth development and focussing on technical ability. 20 years too late but hopefully it will benefit us. If those two can have some influence I think we'd be all the better for it.
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Welbeck behind Carroll
Page 4 of 4
posted on 31/5/12
comment by Spurtle2 (U1608)
Arab
Even so Gerrard and Lampard have a fair degree of technical ability, they just haven't shown it for England for whatever reason, Neither did Scholes really.
----------------------------------
Sorry but I can't agree with that. Scholes was playing well for England and averaging a goal every 3 games. Then he starts getting moved about and his form dropped off. He was 27 at the time and his best years for England were wasted.
posted on 31/5/12
The problem is, the average fan would choose them as they don't know anything about football. I have met many fans that think Gerrard and Rooney are some sort of footballing gods, when in reality they're just good players. I know a Spurs fan that said Gerrard at his best was better than Messi and Ronaldo.
I wouldn't put Carrick in that bracket ether, but his style of play is similar. Scholes wasn't as bad for England as you make out. In the earlier part of his career he was good. He didn't play the same way then as he did now either, he's more suited now to international football than in his younger years, in my opinion.
I don't know how you can say these players aren't being overlooked when the only player in the squad with any decent technique is Rooney, even then it's not to European standards. Wilshere is there because he's really good, but I bet if Gerrard and Lampard were younger he wouldn't be starting.
England has a long way to go. Our problem is that we are too impatient to implement anything that doesn't breed instant success, and our club teams aren't geared towards helping the national teams in the same way the rest of the world are.
posted on 31/5/12
comment by Spurtle2 (U1608)
Arabian
Fair play. I forgot how good Scholes' record was for England as a midfielder. It obviously didn't help his own game being switched out to the left. If this was what led to his retirement though as has been suggested then I'd put question marks over his attitude.
--------------------------------------
Whether it did is debatable. He has always said it was for family reasons. There has also been a lot of rumour about that fact that he couldn't stand some of the more brash players in the squad and didn't like being around them.
posted on 31/5/12
posted 1 hour, 13 minutes ago
comment by honestlivpool_five_times (U1661)
posted 1 minute ago
Andy Carroll is in form and should play. Welbeck, whilst a good player, wouldn't be able to handle Roys tactics.
Carroll is better at holding up and ball and in the air. His link up play has also improved lately so I don't see why he shouldn't start.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
A few droplets leaked out after reading that biased, deluded post.
Tell us another!!
posted on 31/5/12
In fact, more recently, I think that Scholes was actually more outspoken and said that he quit because certain players put themselves before the team. Rather than play a simple pass they would instead opt for a long pass that they thought would make them look good. I believe he called them selfish and questioned their motives.
Keano also said recently that Scholes didn't like the circus around the England squad and the way certain players tried to call the shots - making demands.
posted on 31/5/12
"I think that Scholes was actually more outspoken and said that he quit because certain players put themselves before the team."
This was the problem I believe. He is a shy, modest family man, not one of these egotistical superstar footballers who love the limelight. He plays the game the same way too.
It’s a shame he’s never really been appreciated until the likes of Zidane, Xavi, Davids and co all said he is the best they have played against and they admire his style, and I include United fans in that. When you watch Scholes play, he is probably on par with Xavi, he would certainly flourish in the Barca team.
posted on 31/5/12
A few quotes from fellow pros...
Xavi: Paul Scholes is a role model. For me – and I really mean this – he's the best central midfielder I've seen in the last 15, 20 years.
I've spoken to Xabi Alonso about him. He's spectacular, he has it all: the last pass, goals, he's strong, he doesn't lose the ball, vision. If he'd been Spanish he might have been rated more highly. Players love him.
Socrates (Brazil): Good enough to play for Brazil. I love to watch Scholes, to see him pass, the boy with the red hair and the red shirt.
Zinedine Zidane: My toughest opponent? Scholes of Manchester. He is the complete midfielder. Scholes is undoubtedly the greatest midfielder of his generation.
Marcello Lippi: Paul Scholes would have been one of my first choices for putting together a great team – that goes to show how highly I have always rated him. An all-round midfielder who possesses quality and character in abundance.
Laurent Blanc: I tell anyone who asks me – Scholes is the best English player.
Sir Bobby Charlton: Many great players have worn the shirt of Manchester United. Players I worshipped, then lost with my youth in Munich.
Players like Denis Law and George Best who I enjoyed so much as team-mates and now, finally, players I have watched closely in the Alex Ferguson era. And in so many ways Scholes is my favourite.
Roy Keane: No celebrity bullshitttt, no self-promotion – an amazingly gifted player who remained an unaffected human being.
Sir Alex Ferguson: One of the greatest football brains Manchester United has ever had.
Edgar Davids: Everyone of us should emulate him. We can all learn from Paul Scholes, I am yet to come across such an intelligent footballer.
Ryan Giggs: I’d go for Scholesy as the club’s greatest ever player. I’ve seen him do things that no other player can do. The way he can control the tempo of games, and his range of passing, are both incredible.
We’ve seen over the years that players just haven’t been able to get near him. And you can’t forget his goals either.
Cesc Fabregas: For any football player in the Premiership, Scholes is a player you want to emulate. One player does not make a team but there is no doubt that the presence of some players add extra motivation and confidence.
And finally, the mane himself
Scholes on Scholes: When it's over I just want to be able to look in the mirror and say, 'Well, you were a half-decent player.' Sums him up really
posted on 31/5/12
Sven ruined Scholes. LW my bottom. They did it with Gerrard just so Lamps can amble around as well.
posted on 31/5/12
comment by Robbing_Hoody (U6374)
Sven ruined Scholes. LW my bottom. They did it with Gerrard just so Lamps can amble around as well.
-------------------------------------
The thin was, at that time, Gerrard was more willing to play a defensive game when paired with Scholes. The balance wasn't perfect, but he did stay back more and in the few games were paired together in the CM, I thought Gerrard and Scholes looked pretty good. I would have loved to have seen the pairing develop and Gerrard sacrifice his attacking tendencies to some extent. I am still of the opinion that Gerrard's finest performance in an England shirt was when we beat Germany 5-1 and he sat in the DM spot and was fantastic.
posted on 31/5/12
I preferred Hargreaves there and he has been a big miss. Scholes in the middle and Gerrard in SS would have been my preferance back then. Weak managers for 12 years has cost us dearly.
posted on 31/5/12
comment by Arab The King Fletcher (U10026)
I don't know how you can say these players aren't being overlooked when the only player in the squad with any decent technique is Rooney, even then it's not to European standards. Wilshere is there because he's really good, but I bet if Gerrard and Lampard were younger he wouldn't be starting.
--------------
This isn't true. Rooney's technique is not really any more impressive than Gerrard's or Lampards, he's just a better player than they are. To me it seems like some of the technique Rooney once had has been coached out of him, which is why he never tries to take players on any more.
Wilshere has technique too, and would have been in were he not injured.
Scholes has it too but has retired from international football and is 36/37. He's been asked to come out of retirement before and he's been coy on the issue.
After this you're left with what we have. I don't know if this was your point that there should have been more in the squad or not or whether you're bemoaning the lack of it that we have in general. If the latter then I agree totally, though like I say I think we're starting to realise it now in this country.
posted on 31/5/12
comment by Robbing_Hoody (U6374)
posted 1 hour, 22 minutes ago
I preferred Hargreaves there and he has been a big miss. Scholes in the middle and Gerrard in SS would have been my preferance back then. Weak managers for 12 years has cost us dearly.
----------------------
I'd have been happy with that too.
posted on 31/5/12
It's the latter. Rooney is not as technique good as he was. I still think he has more than Gerrard and Lampard, but from watching United over the years I can see it has regressed and he isn't as comfortable on the ball or in tight spaces as he used to be. It's the one reason I want us to sign a gifted playmaker and move him forward.
Wilshere has been learning from the system Wenger has implemented. I think had Rooney gone to Arsenal rather than United he'd have been a better player for it, but without the winning mentality and directness that Fergie gets out of his players.
If only Wenger and Fergie could simultaneously coach top English players, then I think they'd be a match for the top foreign talent.
posted on 31/5/12
My team to play France would be:
Hart
Johnson
Terry
Lescott/Cahill
Cole
Parker
Jones
Young
Gerrard
Welbeck
Carroll
posted on 31/5/12
Arab pretty much spot on.
A Wenger/Fergie hybrid would be a pretty strong combination. Nice attacking, fluid football with a winning mentality and strong defence. That's how Wenger was so successful earlier on because of that strong English defence and backbone he used to have.
posted on 31/5/12
Spurtle.
If the FA had any sense they'd try and get Wenger and Ferguson involved in the youth development of football in England.
It's great to see they're taking the Spanish model towards youth development and focussing on technical ability. 20 years too late but hopefully it will benefit us. If those two can have some influence I think we'd be all the better for it.
Page 4 of 4